zoneing and legal issues

[Capt Bob Johnson]

This thread has degenerated to the point that I think I'm going to bypass the rest of it!

[Anonymous]

Well Dave I did a house swap in England last year and i loved the place, it was like coming home, a bit different to home but very similar. Of course i had come from Northern Germany might explain things. Quite a few of you Poms said to me, " well ar least someome had something positive to say about England". And really we were treated very well by you Poms, even Londoners.

What Eric and Walt had to say about the young ladies down the street from me, was partly correct. however they were not actually lovlies, not really. What was said about having little to do with their mother dobbing me in was quite true.

Funny enough it didn't happen in order of age; lets just give them numbers. One then then four then two and there was a five. You may well ask about three, i wasn't interested in him at all. and five was only about three years old at the time, so no interest there either. She was an afterthought and born just after WW 2. Oddly my second wife would be the same age as her.

Rgds Ian

[Anonymous]

Interestingly Ian after our  tragic school massacre we banned handguns , repeating shotguns and anything capable of  semi auto. Nett result 5 years or so later - Gun crime has quadrupled and there are more  guns on the streets than ever . And it cost a fortune buying the guns  back. Pity but the criminals seemed not to have surrendered their guns either , very  unsporting of them.I suspect the same exercise in the USA would have the same result . Mind you the penalties here for gun use seem to be a slap on the wrist unless you kill someone , then its a 1 year  free break in the governments holiday camp- TV , sports , shopping trips, library, and it appears now free drugs too.

Anyone who thinks the UK is going to hell in a handcart may not be entirely incorrect...........

[markn]

CB&Q-I've reread the thread and have the following recommendations (just what you need, unsolicited advice from someone with no stake in your property)-
1. build the fence as soon as you can-honker down for 6 mos to a year collecting track, rolling stock, and cash-let it blow over, they will forget and then go about building the GRR where you want.
2. Your first mistake was trying to be a good neighbor/citizen and checking the rules-there was a adage in the military..It is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission, you asked permission from a group that had no concept of what was involved and they had to cover their tails and say no.
3. I know you don't want to go to court, but don't you wish.. you could find a crazy ACLU lawyer looking to make a name and sue the entire city to cease and desist all christmas lights because no one pulled permits for  "all electrical"  work-of  course the local electricians would  love it -they could charge $100 every house , every night to plug your lights in

PS-one last serious note-you mentioned having to pull a permit for "even a water heater"- yes it seems a bit much and you could save the $50 and the afternoon waiting for the inspector but I learned from a HVAC contractor friend that if something happens and no permit was issued-insurance companies can try to deny paying for damage because the homeowner didn't use due diligence to ensure it was properly installed and inspected.

[warhammerdriver]

I'm a member of my town's Planning Board and here's how I see your dilemma.  (Disclaimer:  all this is based on New York State rules and regs.  This MAY not apply in your state/town/city.)

First, a little Planning and Zoning 101.  Zoning, Building Code, and Homeowner's Associations are three very different entities.  A Homeowner's Association is a civil entity.  The worst they can do is sue you if you violate a deed covenant or restriction.  Zoning is handled by whatever municipality you're in.  So a violation there may carry fines or a misdemeanor on your record.  Building Code is handled by the state and administered by your local Building Inspector.

The "easements" you speak of sound like setback requirements to me.  Here in my town we enforce  the setbacks for buildings, but allow landscaping up to the property line.  (A garden railroad is part of the landscaping, isn't it?)

The Building Inspector may get involved if you're running power from the house to an outlet for the railroad permanently.  State electrical code would have to be followed for that.  However, I don't see code being involved from the electrical outlet to the track.  If that were the case, EVERY layout, basement, garage, and garden, would have to be inspected and meet code.

We (the Planning Board) don't even look at deed restrictions, covenants, etc.  We consider them to be a civil matter and expect them to be dealt with before any application is submitted.  (The Board's attorney has defended us in court on this and we won.)

Personally, I don't see a problem here.  If my Building Inspector brought this to us for a ruling--I'd have to tell him it's not something we should deal with.

If you have any questions about your community's regulations, I'd encourage you to go to a planning board meeting and ask them.  After all, they work for you the taxpayer.

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Ian, it was always my luck that the young ladies who lived in my neighborhood had looks that would curdle milk.  Sheesh!  On the subject of HOAs and CC&Rs, most people who buy a house have already succumbed to buyer's fever and basically ignore the paperwork at closing time.  Big mistake.  In my opinion, you should insist that the agent obtain a copy of the HOA rules and the CC&Rs for you the moment you start getting serious about a particular house.  It would save a lot of grief in the future. 

[grandpopswalt]

Ian,

My point is not so much about my neighbor owning an AK47 as it is about the noise it makes in an otherwise very, very quite neighborhood (which is why many of us moved here in the first place).

And Ian a comment, if I may, about your "affairs" with the three lovlies down the street. I suspect you're being a bit disingenuous when you suggest that you set out to woo these young ladies solely because you wanted to get back at their father. Be honest, could there have been some other motivation?


Walt

[Anonymous]

Yeah Walt, your neighbour and his machine gun and other noises, sounds very strange to me and it would not be put up with here inOz. When we had that massacre down in Hobart and then John Howard became Prime Minister; he said "I'm not going to put up with this"! They had a big buy back of all automatic, semi automatic and some Shot guns and the penalty for even having them is hororific let alone firing them. It even affected our olympic shooting team.

Since then we haven't had anything like a mass shooting, so it works! I believe the USA considered the same thing but a ) personal liberties and b) the cost, held the whole thing up, but considering the melees you have had before and since maybe it should be reconsidered?

Keith that bit about officials coming into your house and taking photos, sounds really awful;. maybe you should all get together at the next local government elections and get rid of the council democratically.

Rgds Ian

[grandpopswalt]

Let me start with a disclaimer; I live in the middle of the woods and have undertaken dozens of large projects on my property over the years and have never "pulled" a permit. And, there is certainly no HOA anywhere around me.

However, I do have a neighbor that loves to go out into his own backyard to fire his AK47, in semi mode, almost every day. He also loves to shoot off large fireworks on a regular basis. Most of us (neighbors) are annoyed by this but none of us wants to get the guy in trouble or to hurt his feelings because he really is a very nice guy. In this case an HOA would certainly solve the problem quickly because it defines what is acceptable behavior. And here's a defense of HOA's; you should make yourself aware of the restrictions that the HOA might and will impose and if that's not acceptable to you, then don't buy there. If we had had an association he probably would not have moved here or at least would know that he could not do these things on this street.

I'm not quite ready to give up the relative freedom I have where I now live but my next home will probably be in a place where I can count on a certain level of uniformity of behavior and property use. In other words, if I'm not inclined to crank up the music to 140 DB and party around the pool till 2 AM then I certainly don't want my neighbor to do it either.

Just my opinion.

Walt

[folkestonekeith]

.....interesting thread - whatever happened to the Land of the Free!!

On this side of the pond it's getting just as bad. This year we had water restrictions because of low winter rainfall over the last couple of years (it's raining today so maybe we'll be ok next year!!) - the water company (owned by the French!!) encouraged neighbours to report on their neighbours if they saw them using their garden hosepipes - and there were rumours that the water company had rented a helicopter to check on illicit use!!

Recently the Government has announced powers for the town hall hitlers to enter houses and take digital pictures of all rooms etc. for rating valuation purposes. Non-compliance will be rewarded by daily fines and /or imprisonment. Good areas, properties with an enhanced view etc. will get higher rating valuations......... Wonder what effect a garden railway will have on the valuation.......

And, what about this. Some released convicts/prisoners who were hooked on drugs when sent to prison and put on "cold turkey" have claimed that this was an infringement of their human rights as they could not get access to drugs or treatment. Did the government tell them to p*** off? No, they paid them USD6,300 each  out of court as..........

The place is going bonkers..........

Keith

[CB&Q3007]

iandor,

That is a great story!!!!

Just to make this clearer still, there is no HOA in the area that I live.  This is just the local busy bodies.  The wife and I are united in this project.  The budget has been expanded to include a 6 foot privacy fence to inclose out back yard.  If any questions are asked.....  We want to have a place for our kids (11, 9, 3 1/2, 1 1/2) to roam free and not have to worry about them.   Then if a railroad pops up it is just a toy for the kids. 

[Anonymous]

When i was a kid (14 Years) i got dobbed in to a local cop for driving our old (pre war) Hudson Terraplane up and down the street, he diplomatically told my older brother that it was ok but i had better stop as a neighbour had complained.  

I knew who the neighbour was and they had three daughters; and it took me about three years but i managed to have an affair with all of them. I still don't know who won; havinng the affairs was certainly better than driving an old car. If it wasn't for Rene i would have used a different word to "affair".

Rgds Ian   

[Ray Dunakin]

HOA's (and their condo equivalents) are magnets for anal retentive rule ***, busybodies, and tinplate dictators.

But the fools who buy into them have only themselves to blame. They all sign away their rights, always thinking that the rules will never adversely affect them. It's ok if the rules screw someone else, but when it hits them it's another story.

[tangerine-jack]

markn brought up a good point and one I've been trying to make myself, and that is the fact that HOA's don't even need to exist as the local governments already have laws on the books covering a variety of issues.  I'm more concerned with real laws than some made up rules.

Again, as it applies to the garden railroad,  build it and let them go and try to find a law that covers toy trains.  I expect there are none.

[Camaro1967]

This is a very interesting thread.  The fact is that community associations can be very nasty and obnoxious  especially when they get boards with lots of do gooders and nothing else to do. 
I remember a year or so ago, in one of the forums, a garden railroader wanted to push a loop out into his front yard from the back.  He had to jump through all sorts of hoops and satisfy the board that this would be mainly garden with tracks running through it. 
On the other hand, now days, most associations do not have the money to take everyone to court, and some of the rules are breaking down. 
If you can't move, then play the game, and have some fun with them.  They apparently already have you down as a trouble maker.
Paul

[markn]

While not specifically  train related, I have a couple of lessons learned from running afoul of the powers that be. I am not subject to a Secret Police, er HOA, but the city has brought a few issues to my attention. 

Several years back, I wanted to build a garage-pulled permit but foundation and $ issues nixed it, Plan B- build as large as possible shed-in Virginia under 150 sq ft keeps you off the code radar-I planned it 149.9 sq ft, almost finished and inspector drives by-checks computer sees garage permit for other side of lot- sees no foundation/framing inspection etc-measures shed- overhangs,trim,etc at 160 sq ft-threatens knockdown etc- I made a mistake and actually built 152 sf-I contacted a supervisor, we cancelled garage permit, clarified how to measure SF-notched the rim joist ie foundation back to 149 sf and case closed-LESSON LEARNED take it up the chain to the source/find out exactly what you need to do.

Second deal- one of my other hobbies is restoring cars-I had two, one good chassis no engine, one good engine bent chassis-planned to swap engine and scrap bad chassis.  I am on corner lot with no real "back yard" and don't particularly like (or otherwise need)  "Fort Apache" fences.  I tucked the cars away under gray car covers behind a large tree-technically visible from street but not "noticeable" -blended nicely. I recently started the swap (to clear future ROW)-discarded the worn car cover on the donor car- inspector drives by-doesn't say anything to me but files infraction (inopertive vehicle-no plates no inspection but only for donor car, second car still under cover)and I get nasty letter from city to correct the problem-so I get a new cover-7 days after the letter, the  inspector shows and says I can't just cover the vehicle-which I had been doing for years.Talked to inspector/supervisor to clarify rule-unless there is a specific complaint by a neighbor (I  had gotten none over the years), the inspector can't tell from the street if that's your brand new licensed/inspected BMW under the cover or the old project car. He gave me another week and I completed the swap and scrapped the offending car and tucked the remaining car a little deeper.  LESSON LEARNED -again, find out what exactly is required, and  if necessary good fences make good neighbors-outta sight, outta mind- I now put up an clothes line and an ugly tarp when I need to uncover the car.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Dictator Tin Gods, yes, exactly!  Phooey on all of them.  I wish I could express in words how much I hate these busy body, know nothing slug brained idiots that have to involve themselves in disrupting other peoples private lives and properties because they are too weak minded and shallow to have a personality and life of their own.   Go ahead and try to tell me what to do in my own back yard, bunch of simple minded fools, not my fault they lack creativity and vision.

 

Maybe later I'll post how I really feel about the HOA morons.

 

Now Jack, you know those words aren't tolerated here on the forum!   You don't want to make Rene Blush!    I have some suggestions for you.

South end of Northbound horse!

Posterior Portions!

Snafu makers.

Something worse than a young seagull; and they ain't nothing but s**t, squawk, & feathers!

Lower than Whale s**t and that's on the bottom of the ocean!

 

How's that for starters?

 

[Anonymous]

We call them Little Hitlers.

Rgds ian

[RR Redneck]

End run around the wiring issue is to run an extension cord out to the railroad. I say build away and tell them to take their permits, roll 'em up and sit on them.

Here, here, I couldn't have said it better my self.

[tangerine-jack]

Dictator Tin Gods, yes, exactly!  Phooey on all of them.  I wish I could express in words how much I hate these busy body, know nothing slug brained idiots that have to involve themselves in disrupting other peoples private lives and properties because they are too weak minded and shallow to have a personality and life of their own.   Go ahead and try to tell me what to do in my own back yard, bunch of simple minded fools, not my fault they lack creativity and vision.

 

Maybe later I'll post how I really feel about the HOA morons.

[Anonymous]

And I thought the UK was heading into the nanny state ,permission to breathe stakes - My sympathies to anyone who is burdened with the Tin God ,failed dictator local bureacrats. We have a few here , and it does seem that some prople just like to complain about what their neighbours do ,I assume its a substitute for having a real life. I would suggest providing you are not too heavy handed with the construction a garden railway can only fall into the plastic flamingo , gnome , ornament category and should not even get noticed.

[Anonymous]

The only easments i have come across is to do with sewer, i had not thougt about overhead wires but it is all similar in that if nothinghappens and they don't need access to it all should be ok. Butif they doneed access to it then all bets are off and youmay wellhave to remove everything or risk having it ruined or worse.

Rgds ian

[GP-9_Man11786]

End run around the wiring issue is to run an extension cord out to the railroad. I say build away and tell them to take their permits, roll 'em up and sit on them.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I'm thinking somebody's gotten too big for thier britches, or don't know thier "a double scribble" from third base!

I'd inquire at the building inspector's office about who is the electrical inspector.   Once you find that out, you could then arrange a meeting with the EI to discuss the need for permitting and inspection on the lo voltage stuff.   If the town uses an outside firm for the inspections and adheres to BOCA or some other national code, you have them beat!

About the easements, I'd check to see what they are for.  If for drainage, and your layout does not interfere with drainage, they have no complaint.   If it's for overhead wiring, I'd again think that as long as they can get to the poles, they would have no complaint!   If they are for underground water or sewer lines, I wouldn't worry too much; how often do they have to be dug up for work(as long as you don't block access to cleanouts)?  Now if they are for underground electric or phone service, you'd want to have them well marked and charted on a plot plan and could probably work around them.

One of the best methods to battle this is to get some of the neighborhood kids involved in helping you build the thing.   That would work on shutting up the parents, and also help prevent vandalism.   If they have effort involved in making it, they ain't gonna want to tear it up!   Hook the town building inspector on garden RR and you probably have the whole thing beat!    Start a club!

[RR Redneck]

And just to tick them off, build a nice big trestle. LOL

[CB&Q3007]

I guess it is time to start blasting and filling the grade for the main line.   That will get som attention.

Just kidding, Slow and steady..... wins the race.  I hope to break ground ether late 07 or early 08.  I have to prep every thing first.  Wait, so I am breaking ground, but not just for the railroad.....  Well plans are moving forward at least.

[Anonymous]

I sold my house last summer and had my G-scale track runing around our family room wall above the door jamb. The new buyers asked me to PLEASE leave it up because they wanted to do the same thing. I don't think it is what SOLD my old house, but it also didn't disuade them either.

If I ever move again, I'll probably remove my current outdoor railroad, track and boulders and all, unless the new buyers want to pay a little extra for it.

As far as HOA, I think they are useless and all they do is take your money. I haven't been in an HOA in over 16 years in the homes I've bought. That's the first and foremost requirement I check on. I will never buy a home with one......talk about Socialism!!!!!

I'd agree with everyone else, go ahead and build your outdoor railroad and have fun, to h@ll with your neighbors and the HOA.

dan

[CB&Q3007]

After reading through all the replies to this thread, the wife and I have decided that we will proceed with the Deadwood Central.  This spring will start the foundation of the pike.  I have to regrade the back and side lawns anyway due to poor drainage.  Last thing I need is a major wash out once I get track down I think if I make sure it is fun to watch and a sight to behold it should be ok.

Thank you one and all.

[Anonymous]

Right on, you guys!   Build away, I say.  The easement is still your property.  The local government has access to it, but it's still your property.  Sheesh, I hate bureaucrats!  (and I used to be one )