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zoneing and legal issues

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zoneing and legal issues
Posted by CB&Q3007 on Monday, November 6, 2006 2:21 PM
I have been tying to search the board for anyone that may have run into zoning or building code issues with there outdoor layout.  I have just finished dealing with the local village about a few other problems seen on my property.  I am afraid that there may be something hiding in the code book someware.  has anyone here run into problems with the local officals or neighbors with there garden railroads??
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Posted by Capt Bob Johnson on Monday, November 6, 2006 7:11 PM
That is interesting, what are they b******g about?   I could understand if it's 110 AC power to layout, or something structural that could concieveably harm a person thru collapse; but otherwise i'm wondering!
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Posted by CB&Q3007 on Monday, November 6, 2006 7:30 PM
Capt. Bob,

I do not know,  that is why I am asking for input.  I know that some neighbor is not happy with me and I can not find out who unless I take any one of the issues to court (I do not want to go to court).  At least I am "up to date" with the complaints.  I am just trying to cover my bases right now.

I wish I could find out what I did to upset who ever!!!!

As for the 110VAC, I was thinking RC.  No bridges eather.
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Posted by cacole on Monday, November 6, 2006 9:35 PM

Zoning codes differ by jurisdiction, but even so there should be nothing that prohibits an outdoor railroad as long as no high voltage electrical wiring, plumbing, or permanent building construction is involved.  The low voltage used by our trains does not fall within the National Electrical Code.

An outdoor railroad would be regarded purely as a temporary structure here in Arizona and would require no zoning approval from anyone.

Of course, if you go overboard and add floodlights, high-wattage sound systems, etc, then you would probably run into zoning issues and incur the wrath of neighbors because of the noise and light pollution.

The City of Sierra Vista Planning and Zoning Commission publishes a free homeowners' guidebook that outlines what is and is not permitted, and your local zoning officials might have a similar publication available if you check with your local city or county administration.

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Posted by Tom The Brat on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 8:42 AM
I hear homeowner's associations can be a headache.
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Posted by tangerine-jack on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 11:19 AM

I had an issue a while back with the tax man.  He said the garden railroad improved my property value by 40G, I told him he was nuts.  They were thinking that a garden railroad was the kind you rode on.  In the end it was resolved when I explained that the train was just a toy and not an amusement park ride.

The garden part of the railroad should increase the desirability of your property as landscaping.  The railroad part of the garden is a toy.  I know a lot of us are very particular about the "toy" vs. "model" train argument, but this would be a great time to angle the "toy" part and point out that lots of kids in the neighborhood also have toys in the yard such as swing sets and play forts. 

Explain to the powers to be to leave your toy trains alone and worry about important things.  If it ever did go to court (highly unlikely) it would be a matter of one neighbor complaining that the other neighbor had better toys ( "he's got a toy train and I don't so I want you to make him get rid of it" or something to that effect).  I don't think many judges would waste too much time listening to adults arguing over a toy train.

 

The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"

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Posted by cacole on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 11:31 AM

In a lengthy discussion on the Model Railroader Magazine forum a couple of years ago about whether or not an indoor model railroad layout increases or decreases the value of property when it comes time to sell, the consensus opinion was that it decreases the resale value.

A couple of realtors involved in the discussion opined that the chances of finding a buyer who was also interested in model trains was very unlikely, and even if they were interested they probably wouldn't like your layout and would be thinking to themselves how much it was going to cost them to tear it out and haul it to the landfill.

One realtor said they actually lost a sale because there was a G-scale layout in the back yard and the prospective buyers had absolutely no interest in it and the seller had already moved out of state and was not available to remove it.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 6:11 PM

I live in a very expensive classy area which has many covenents, however none of these seem to affect me and in any case many of these organisations are abit like a toothless lion.

Ian    

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Posted by GearDrivenSteam on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 8:45 PM
Most of the time, you can petition the P&Z for what's referred to as a "variance". This is simply an exception to the rule. If you get signatures from neighbors on a statement declaring their non opposition, you should be granted a variance, provided it's not too far out in left field. Even homeowner's associations will consider such a request. They are bound to by law as long as you follow the proper channels. Of course, consideration is no gaurantee, but it's better than nothing.
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Posted by GearDrivenSteam on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 8:49 PM
Your darn tooten you can find out who. Without going to court, too. Just go door to door with a petition for a variance like I said above. Just print up a simple non opposition statement and let your neighbors sign it. Whoever refuses you is your guy. Try to reason with them because you DO live in the same neighborhood. If you can smooth things over, you'll both be better off.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 9:45 PM
This is an unusual case.  Most neighborhood problems arise out of real or perceived violations of the covenant, conditions and restrictions (CC&Rs).  Zoning issues usually involve running a business out of a home, possessing livestock or unauthorized structures.  A garden railroad is so far removed from the normal zoning laws that I'm surprised that the local officials gave the complaint even a cursory glance.  Did you run your track through the foundation into the basement or perhaps run your power from your electrical junction box or something like that?  If the officials are taking this seriously, you live in a very tough town indeed!
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Posted by CB&Q3007 on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 10:06 AM
I am sorry, I may have not been clear.  I have not put one piece of track down yet.  I have only worked out most of the layout on paper with the wife.  The issues I have had with the village have been about some of the materials I have for my Airstream trailer.  They do not like the fact that I had two trailers at one time.  Plus they do not like back yards to be used for staging a project.  I had a 10 foot section off the first trailer stored on my patio in the back for two months and they went off on me saying I was running a junk yard.
That said, I just want to see if anyone has had problems.  It seems that none of you have.  I am going to call the building and zoning department (they cover just about all aspects of prperty maintenance and looks) today to get there take on this subject.  I will report back later today.

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Posted by CB&Q3007 on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 12:49 PM
Well back to square one for my plans. Black Eye [B)]  I have to keep the track out of the easments (5 foot on the side yard, 10 foot in the back) and if I run track power I need a permit and inspections for the wireing.
90% of the planed layout was going to be in the easment.

Never ever move to Lisle Illinois.  This place it the pits. 

Back to the drawing board.....

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Posted by FJ and G on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 1:16 PM
I have a 10 foot easment for a sewer line that I'm not supposed to build on running the entire side of my house. I bought the house before I realized I like garden railroading. Bummer.

But I'm building over it anyway; even making a lake and waterfalls. If they ever have to dig out the sewer line, I'll just rebuild.

HOAs can be a real pain. Had to nix plans for a 20-foot deep open pit mine in the front yard. (kidding, LOL).
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Posted by cacole on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 1:16 PM

I disagree with their assessment on wiring -- did you tell them it would be low voltage DC and not regular household wiring?  The track wiring should be no different than putting Malibu lights along a driveway, and they don't require zoning approval or electrical inspections.

As for the setback requirements, that should not apply to a garden railway either because the trackwork is only temporary.

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Posted by CB&Q3007 on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 2:45 PM
I like the idea of an open pit mine......... Mischief [:-,]

A lot of things, that in the real world do not need a permit, do in the town I live in.  A water heater requires a permit!!  They just passed a new one requiring a permit to take down a tree.  They do not care what the voltage is.  All electrical requires a permit.  Sad times.....

I went with the track around the edge of the yard, so my kids (1 1/2, 3 1/2, 9 and 11)still have room to run around,

I may just wait another year or so and start construction anyway........


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Posted by cacole on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 4:56 PM
Although it costs more, you could go with battery power and radio control.  I'm sure an indoor battery charger is not going to require a permit.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 7:07 PM

I personally would not take any notice of what they had to say about utilising the easment, it is your land and you can do as you please, providing it doesn't interfere witht the easement. However should any problem occur that will need acess to said easement, then you will be required to remove whatever is on to allow said access.

This is not a statement of law, more a good sensible general approach to easements in general. It certainly is not for me to say as, laws do change from area to area; state to state and certainly from country to country.

Rgds Ian

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Posted by tangerine-jack on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 8:39 PM

I agree with Ian, it's your land and sod what anybody says.  It's your TOY train- ask the city if the 4 year olds need a driver's license for a bike or battery powered car, perhaps the 6 year olds should get a pilot's license for flying kites and paper airplanes, I mean after all fair is fair and we must be consistent with regulating our TOYS.  Remind the locals that TOYS don't need permits, if they don't understand what a TOY is, then that is truly a problem.

I am not telling you what to do, so don't quote me on this.  If it were me, I would build my garden railroad anyway with the clear and unmistakable warning to all neighbors that if you took me to court I will embarrass you in front of the judge and ruin whatever name you thought you had.  The newspaper would love to print who you are and what you've done to take a toy away.  Stay off my property and stay out of my private business unless I invite you in.  I hate with every ounce of my being these HOA's and covenants.

The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 9:36 PM
Right on, you guys!   Build away, I say.  The easement is still your property.  The local government has access to it, but it's still your property.  Sheesh, I hate bureaucrats!  (and I used to be one Blush [:I])
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Posted by CB&Q3007 on Thursday, November 9, 2006 7:18 AM
After reading through all the replies to this thread, the wife and I have decided that we will proceed with the Deadwood Central.  This spring will start the foundation of the pike.  I have to regrade the back and side lawns anyway due to poor drainage.  Last thing I need is a major wash out once I get track down Shock [:O] I think if I make sure it is fun to watch and a sight to behold it should be ok.

Thank you one and all.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 9, 2006 9:12 AM
I sold my house last summer and had my G-scale track runing around our family room wall above the door jamb. The new buyers asked me to PLEASE leave it up because they wanted to do the same thing. I don't think it is what SOLD my old house, but it also didn't disuade them either.

If I ever move again, I'll probably remove my current outdoor railroad, track and boulders and all, unless the new buyers want to pay a little extra for it.

As far as HOA, I think they are useless and all they do is take your money. I haven't been in an HOA in over 16 years in the homes I've bought. That's the first and foremost requirement I check on. I will never buy a home with one......talk about Socialism!!!!!

I'd agree with everyone else, go ahead and build your outdoor railroad and have fun, to h@ll with your neighbors and the HOA.

dan
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Posted by CB&Q3007 on Thursday, November 9, 2006 10:35 AM
I guess it is time to start blasting and filling the grade for the main line. Evil [}:)]  That will get som attention. Smile [:)]

Just kidding, Slow and steady..... wins the race.  I hope to break ground ether late 07 or early 08.  I have to prep every thing first.  Wait, so I am breaking ground, but not just for the railroad.....Confused [%-)]  Well plans are moving forward at least.

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Posted by RR Redneck on Friday, November 10, 2006 5:11 PM
And just to tick them off, build a nice big trestle. LOL

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Posted by Capt Bob Johnson on Saturday, November 11, 2006 2:44 PM

I'm thinking somebody's gotten too big for thier britches, or don't know thier "a double scribble" from third base!

I'd inquire at the building inspector's office about who is the electrical inspector.   Once you find that out, you could then arrange a meeting with the EI to discuss the need for permitting and inspection on the lo voltage stuff.   If the town uses an outside firm for the inspections and adheres to BOCA or some other national code, you have them beat!

About the easements, I'd check to see what they are for.  If for drainage, and your layout does not interfere with drainage, they have no complaint.   If it's for overhead wiring, I'd again think that as long as they can get to the poles, they would have no complaint!   If they are for underground water or sewer lines, I wouldn't worry too much; how often do they have to be dug up for work(as long as you don't block access to cleanouts)?  Now if they are for underground electric or phone service, you'd want to have them well marked and charted on a plot plan and could probably work around them.

One of the best methods to battle this is to get some of the neighborhood kids involved in helping you build the thing.   That would work on shutting up the parents, and also help prevent vandalism.   If they have effort involved in making it, they ain't gonna want to tear it up!   Hook the town building inspector on garden RR and you probably have the whole thing beat!    Start a club!

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Posted by GP-9_Man11786 on Saturday, November 11, 2006 3:56 PM
End run around the wiring issue is to run an extension cord out to the railroad. I say build away and tell them to take their permits, roll 'em up and sit on them.

Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.

www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com 

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:42 PM

The only easments i have come across is to do with sewer, i had not thougt about overhead wires but it is all similar in that if nothinghappens and they don't need access to it all should be ok. Butif they doneed access to it then all bets are off and youmay wellhave to remove everything or risk having it ruined or worse.

Rgds ian

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 12, 2006 2:34 AM
And I thought the UK was heading into the nanny state ,permission to breathe stakes - My sympathies to anyone who is burdened with the Tin God ,failed dictator local bureacrats. We have a few here , and it does seem that some prople just like to complain about what their neighbours do ,I assume its a substitute for having a real life. I would suggest providing you are not too heavy handed with the construction a garden railway can only fall into the plastic flamingo , gnome , ornament category and should not even get noticed.
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Posted by tangerine-jack on Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:45 AM

Dictator Tin Gods, yes, exactly!  Phooey on all of them.  I wish I could express in words how much I hate these busy body, know nothing slug brained idiots that have to involve themselves in disrupting other peoples private lives and properties because they are too weak minded and shallow to have a personality and life of their own.   Go ahead and try to tell me what to do in my own back yard, bunch of simple minded fools, not my fault they lack creativity and vision.

 

Maybe later I'll post how I really feel about the HOA morons.

The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"

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Posted by RR Redneck on Sunday, November 12, 2006 12:13 PM

 GP-9_Man11786 wrote:
End run around the wiring issue is to run an extension cord out to the railroad. I say build away and tell them to take their permits, roll 'em up and sit on them.

Here, here, I couldn't have said it better my self.

Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.

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