anti-vegetative matting, ballast and anchors

[FJ and G]

Just a couple quick questions.

1. There's a garden matting used to stop grass and weed growth and sold by garden centers. Not sure what it's called. Do you use that under your track? (you can poke holes in it where you want plants).

2. What type of ballast is best (causes the least dust on rails and holds together best). There's some really nice river gravel near my house but the granules are rounded and I heard that that type doesn't hold together well.

3. Is your track 100% free floating or are there anchors. The latest GR mag featured the main layout using anchors at every section. If you use anchors, what type do you use?

Much thanks.

Dave Vergun

[John Busby]

Hi FG&J
Forget weed mat it causes more problems than it solves, unless it is being used purely to keep dirt out of hard core in a trench.
I have not found one that stops weeds have found plenty that make pulling the weeds out a pain in the ERHM!! because the weed is growing through it.

For ballast take a tip from the full size railroads use crushed blue metal.
I use one that is called crusher dust on my "G" scale railway I spread it
bru***he exess away then spray it with water it then solidifies on its own but can still be dug through if need be to replace track or alter the layout
but stays in place if left alone.
Your ballast must not have rounded edges or it will not hold the track in place.

Anchors what for ??
My track is in ballast only I do use the rubber clips that are meant for holding the track together when used on the floor as well.
I have to have free floating track due to the ground conditions where I live if i did not my track could well twist regardless of any manufacturer claims.
Your ground conditions are what will determin the best way to build.
track on a stick, concrete or trench and ballast method.
regards John

[whiterab]

I don't use weed mat under the track because I use a concrete sub-roadbed.

I use chicken grit for ballast but only because I can't get crusher fines in my area. By the way, the dust is good. It helps stabilize the roadbed. Normal rain and normal cleaning will keep the dust from collecting on the top of your track and really isn't a problem. Any initial dust from the ballast will settle down in the roadbed.

With the exception of track on the long bridges, all of my track is free floating, it's happier that way. I use a combination of standard Aristo rail joiners and split jaw rail clamps. The joiners and the ballast are sufficient to keep the rails right where they belong - IF you have a good sub-roadbed and gap the rails properly to allow for thermal expansion.

[vsmith]

I used the weed-block fabric, but it was under the whole area of my layout which is all covered in gravel.

One good thing about weed-block is that it will help keep your gravel ballast from migrating and sinking into the ground each winter.

I also float my track on the gravel, using track clips and rail clamps to hold it all together. I used regular crushed all-purpose gravel that comes in bags from Home Despot, be sure not to use the 3/4" crushed gravel as its too large, the All-Purpose gravel is about 1/4" to 3/8" or so and works great.

[Anonymous]

I have yet to spike a tie, but my experience with weed mats are laughable. I do landscaping as a hobby business. I have found people 10 to 1 againgt the fabric because after 2 to 3 years weed seeds land on top of the mat and their roots grow down through it. Then it is really tough to pull out. You end up with fast growback from the remaining root. After that it's round up and a paintbrush for spot applications. Fabric In my opinion is a great accessory sale at the garden center, High profit that leaves the store owner smiling at the extra sale. It isn't done maliciously, like the step in edgers her in WI. Frost pushes it back up under your lawnmower blades so they can sell you more. Great sales items, but poor usefulness.

[FJ and G]

zippy,

The fabric matting also is touted as a great dry stream bed material, atop of which you place rounded stones and pebbles to simulate a dried creek bed.

Your experience and the other reply here give me pause now as to the wisdom of using the matting.

Maybe the simplist method is just to dig a trench (I have clay for soil) and put the gravel in and the track on top.

BTW I'm not familiar with track clips. What is their purpose.

Thanks.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

zippy,

The fabric matting also is touted as a great dry stream bed material, atop of which you place rounded stones and pebbles to simulate a dried creek bed.

Your experience and the other reply here give me pause now as to the wisdom of using the matting.

Maybe the simplist method is just to dig a trench (I have clay for soil) and put the gravel in and the track on top.

BTW I'm not familiar with track clips. What is their purpose.

Thanks.

Dave if you have clay, use the weed-block. Not to stop weeds, but to keep your ballast from dissappearing, the weed-block acts as a barrier to prevent migration of the ballast down into the soil.

Clays usually turns to mud when wet, allowing heavier things like ston to work their way down into it, you'll find that your ballast will be mysteriously vanishing a little each year so that you have to keep reballasting every season. Lining the trench with the block helps keep it all together minimizing loss and prevents soil from working up into your ballast and turning it into a mess of stones and soil. Doesnt work worth beans for stopping weeds from growing top down but works great for keeping your ballast from sinking from sight.

Track clips are used with LGB track, they are small plastic clips that attach to the end ties of each section and help hold the track together, I used them mostly to keep the sections together when I was leveling the right of way (its easier to do that with the longest sections you can easily handle) I just left them on when I added the final ballasting of the sections into place (after everything was tied, clipped or clamped together)

Aristo and USA use tiny set screws at the joiners to hold their sections together, they work great but can be a major pain do do in the field, I would do this at a table for long sections of track then clamp the sections together . My layout is small enough I could do this.

[vsmith]

Also BE CAREFULL ballasting around switches, in fact DONT. Make sure there's support under the switch and add some at the ends of each track connection but add carefully any ballast in the middle none moving parts and DO NOT add ballast or dust near the switch points or the where the track pivots. You get a little bit of fine ballast or stone dust in the switch mechanism and connections or the pivot hinges and forget it! You'll have nothing but trouble with it from there out. Better to let it sit free and be able to work correctly.

[Anonymous]

I use weed block under my track, ballast is blue stone dust, which is used under stepping stones for leveling purposes, and the stone dust is ground blue stone with the very small blue stone chips and the dust which interlock the ties to the ballast. Concening switches keep away from the moving switch points.

mikadousrp

[John Busby]

Hi FG&J
If you have clay soil you may need to build a raised flexable track base like i did out of house bricks run garden edging around the top.and build the garden up.
If you do trench you will need to line your trench with weed mat or geo cloth
and use two diferent sized agregate in the trench big stuff at the bottom
about full sized RR ballast size then smaller stuff towards the top and finaly
crusher dust for the actual ballast to hold the track.
Also run 2" pipes and put in cable pits made of 6" plumbing pipe and push on end caps beside the line not under the line like stated in many of the books and published articals this will make running repairing and adding too wiring easy which the conventional put it under the track will not allow.
Track clips are the things that LGB make for holding the track together when its laid on the floor they clip onto the ties at each end of the track section.
regards John
PS my line is also on clay soil

[tangerine-jack]

I have found there to be two types of weed mat, I've used both and only found one to be of use. The first is the type everybody here is lambasting, for good reason. It is a type of me***hat is as rotten as everyone says. The second is more of a paper with a fuzzy side. This second type works great- after 4 years I have zero unauthorized growth, no root adhesion and even the stray crab grass is easily pulled out roots and all.

Vic is right, the mesh weed block is great for use as a barier material under gravel or sand to prevent settling.

Dave, I have the exact same dirt as you, same vegitation and climate. Whether or not you build your RR at ground level or elevated, it is imperative that you trench under your track and use chicken grit (available at Southern States feed stores) for ballast. Free float the track, use no anchors, otherwise your track will flex and pop, and grow mildew- yes I said grow mildew. With the rain and humidity we have in VA, drainage is the top priority for us. Do as John Busby says and line the bottom of the trench with weed mat (paper type) and fill with gravel and grit. Brick road bed will work, but only after placing the bricks on top of the gravel base, otherwise your bricks will disapear into the ground at the first rain- ask me how I know!

I use Aristo-Craft track, it comes with screw in joiners already, so clamps or other devices are not needed.

As you can see, the possibilities and varieties of roadbed are endless! Much different from the 1/2" ply and 1/2" homosoate cookie cutter stuff you're used to indoors, isn't it?



[oX)]

[FJ and G]

Thanks, I'm saving all of this, as this material gives me much to think about.

I started a subscription to Garden RR mag and last night got 5 or 6 books from the library.

The library books state that there are 2 types of Garden RRs (2 trains of thought). Those who anchor everything and those who are free floaters (not on LSD mind you).

The anchor types anchor everything down, for example using wood stakes in the ground with wood side and base for track, or concrete with rebars and a 1x1" cedar strip set in the wet cement on which to fasten the track.

Some of you know that I'll be laying Atlas UV protected 3-rail O track. The problem with their flex track is that it has a memory and flexes back to straight unless it is anchored onto the roadbed.

One solution to that is to use their flex track and keep it straight and for where it's supposed to curve, put 1 or 2 curved rigid sectional pieces in place. However, that would limit some of my trackplanning options, where, for example, I want wide, sweeping curves.

While all of the replies so far tout the free-floating method, I'd be very interested to hear from someone who has had good success anchoring their track.

I'm keeping an open mind on this for now, keeping in mind some of the diresome warnings given.

[John Busby]

Hi FG&J
A trick the 16mm scale modelers use is to put two longditudinal batens under the track before laying it to keep it straight treated strip wood the
size of trelis wood is often what is used taking care to treat the cut edges.
not sure how they batten the curves but the whole lot is then ballasted hiding the battens.
The 16mm guys use 32mm track to represent 2' the rail is of similar size to what you plan on using
On clay unless you build a very substantial structure at great expence you cannot anchor your track too much risk with clay movement
go with a flexable track base that can move if the clay moves you will have to keep an ey on track levels and ballast but thats what you got to do if you want to build on clay.
regards John

[tangerine-jack]

Hmm, forgot about the O scale flex track thingy. You still need the drainage and chicken grit (trench and all), but I would suggest anchoring the track every couple of feet in the curved sections with an aluminum or stainless steel T pin. You could make one by welding or riveting a 2"X4" piece of aluminum or SS to a spike of sharpened piece of angle stock of the same metal, the spike being at least 14" long. You can then screw the track to the 2"X4" top plate. Or maybe notch the metal stock and bend the tang over and weld the seam......That should give you a corrosion free anchor that can also move with the soil, yet provide adequate strength with which to anchor your track, whichever roadbed style you decide to use.

Just a thought. Maybe I'll do some experimenting for you in this area and see what I come up with. I've got a lot of scrap angle aluminum. When you visit I'll give you what I've made if it seems to work out.




[oX)]

[FJ and G]

John, TJ,

Good ideas. Perhaps something like aluminum tent stakes or the aluminum U-shaped. If they pop out with frost, could easily pu***hem back into the ground. Camouflaging it might be tricky. Track bars (to hold alignment of track) go parallel to ties. I don't know of any device that goes perpendicular.

Another option might be using some type of outdoor glue to glue the tie-plates to the rails to prevent sliding. Not sure what type of glue might work.

[tangerine-jack]

Frost ???[(-D][(-D][(-D] That's a good one, Dave! Like that's a problem in VA! Frost here is surface only, insignificant as far as the track is concerned. Cold contraction would worry me more, but so far on my RR it's been negligable in it's effect on my floating track.

I was thinking the spikes would go in, then the track is screwed to the top. Ballast would cover any spike heads. Remember, you are outside and sometimes you can see an out of scale component such as a track support or full sized brick. This is OK to do if it's not too noticable and structuraly required. Garden RRing is not too tough if you don't overthink the small details[;)]



[oX)]

[mgilger]

Dave,
A comment on using the chicken grit. If you use this, make sure it's pure granite and not mixed with crushed sea shells. The shells will deteriorate over time.

What I did was to cut a trench several inches deep, by about 6-8 inches wide. I put the meshed weed barrier in the trench overhanging each edge by several inches. I then piled on the # 8 limestone. About 8 tons of it. I then used, what around here, is called pavers stone. Pavers stone is nothing but finely crushed limestone. Another 8 tons of that was used. After all that was down, I let it settle for several months while I was running trains. I then used Medium chicken grit (all granite) and tweak things up with that throughout the year. It’s only about $5.50 around here for a 50# bag.

Some like their road beds level with the ground. I chose to model mine after real railroads and mounded it above the ground anywhere from 1 to 3 inches in most spots. Have you ever seen a real railroad with the roadbed level with the ground? Not me….

You can see the construction phase of the MM&G at the following link.

http://community.webshots.com/user/mvgilger

Having fun in Ohio.
Mark

[FJ and G]

Mark,

That's pretty big time railroading. Great job.

My mainline when completed, a loop, will be about 200 feet, not including the siding. Right now I'm debating which track to buy. Atlas 3-rail O runs a whopping $12 for a 40 inch section; more expensive than G scale!!!! So, I'm looking possibly at getting that Pullman Code 197 track that G scalers use for my 3-rail trains. Perhaps that's cheaper, or code 150 rail would work as well.

Trouble is, if I lay the track myself, I'll have to affix the ties so they won't be floating. I'm studying several methods now, including the 3 pieces of PVC method that looks rather interesting.

BTW, I visited a G-scale layout today in Burke VA to get some ideas. If not too busy at work on Monday, I'll try to post some photos. He's an ex-HO railroader like many of us.

[mgilger]

And I thought 'G' gauge track was expensive. Darn.....

Mark