Ultraviolet light question

[Anonymous]

artschlosser.
Hey Tosser.
Ignore me if you want.I'll wait until you offer something [:D]

[Greg Elmassian]

To the original question, the basic ingredient in Armorall is plasticizer, keeps plastic and rubber supple. Years back, Armorall added UV protection. The competition uses the same basic formula. It was invented a few miles from my home in Orange County, and over the years knew various people in the company.

I use it on the freight cars I leave outside, and my engines. There are better UV protectants that are water based, with no plasticizer, 303 is the best one.

Have used the stuff over the years and cannot attribute any failures to it. It does keep fading down. Have not had any cars disintegrate.

It can also keep rubber bits from dissolving, and plastic valve gear from getting brittle.

Just my experience of using it since about 1968, if my memory is correct.

Regards, Greg

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CandCRR

David Vergun,

I agree with you about proper etiquette and *** about "Ignore the ones that are stupid or offensive." A while back I was accused of posting just to boost my "numbers", not commenting about what I wrote. Rather than getting into any kind of useless discussion on the forum I emailed the person. They never responded to me. So it became obvious to me that the person in question only attacks to make themselves feel more important. Now I don't even remember who it was and I don't want to even bother expending the energy too look it up again. They and what they wrote are not worth the trouble.

I am no expert but your experiments sound like fun as well as a learning experience.

Thank you,

Jaime

I'll second that!

David whatever you do, don't UV proof that beagle![;)][:D][:D]
That he keeps you busier than the rest goes without saying.

On the experimenting front; much better to find out with one piece. Yes, it will take extra time, but that is less of a concern than having all kinds of "good stuff" go to waste because of being in a hurry.

GRR experiments/research I've done in the past five years:

1. 18 months to decide on which DCC system I would buy. Read all the relevant info in the respective manuals and decided that as far as all-round versatility, expandability and state of the art was concerned it was to be: ZIMO. Yes, more expensive than the rest, but I know plenty of people who went "the cheap way" and in the meantime have spent more money on "extras" for their "system" than I'll ever have to. Not to mention those people who have been utterly disappointed, got rid of their "cheap stuff" and bought a decent system.

2. Track has been laying outside for four years to see how the ties would stand up and the brass would tarnish. Will the brass rail tarnish? Yes it will, but using a wire wheel in the benchgrinder to get all the residues from the drawing process off gets better results i.e. it weathers evenly. BTW some lengths of Aristo track have been out there just as long and they look almost as good as the day I bought them.
Of course all this won't matter to those who don't care if their tracks has a brass gleam.

3. Handlaid turnouts with wood ties mounted on pressure treated plywood. At one time stainless steel spikes were all the rage. Welllllll I used the black spikes from Micro Engineering and they hold perfectly! Don't rust all that much either, something to do with our climate. [;)][:)]

4. Raised benchwork aka "the elevated RhB", due to the lay of the land and the location of the garage the trains exit Staging at approx. 41" above ground. So I decided to use ground spikes and pressure treated wood for the benchwork. The ground spikes hold PTed 4x4s, attached to those are 2x6 girders and to top it off I use 3/4" PT ply. Along the edge of the ply sheets (set back by 2") I mount 2x4s to keep the sheets nice and straight. Stuffs been out there for four years, no frost-heave on the spikes and the PT stands up really well.

5. PVC base for handlaid turnouts. Since PT and dirt is not the perfect mix, someone suggested PVC to mount the ties on. The PVC/wood combo would require finding out which adhesive would be strong enough to resist twisting, the sun, the rain, the cold, easy to apply and not outrageously expensive. Tried industrial CA, two-part epoxy and Weldbond. And the winner is: Weldbond. Easy to apply as strong as the other two, OK I didn't do the destruction test, but they all staid on that piece of 4mm PVC sheet.
Oh for the cold in the middle of summer? I just popped the test piece in the freezer over night and back out into the Okanagan sunshine the next day. [:D][:D]

And somewhere along the line the effects of the sun played a role in all this - except #1, but even on that score, I know enough people who have "hot weather" problems with their DCC systems.

[CandCRR]

David Vergun,

I agree with you about proper etiquette and *** about "Ignore the ones that are stupid or offensive." A while back I was accused of posting just to boost my "numbers", not commenting about what I wrote. Rather than getting into any kind of useless discussion on the forum I emailed the person. They never responded to me. So it became obvious to me that the person in question only attacks to make themselves feel more important. Now I don't even remember who it was and I don't want to even bother expending the energy too look it up again. They and what they wrote are not worth the trouble.

I am no expert but your experiments sound like fun as well as a learning experience.

Thank you,

Jaime

[Anonymous]

Iandor, a friend of mine had a quote similar to yours - ''Tis better to have - - etc.' - but 't'is a bit more punful: "'Tis better to have loved a short girl than to've never loved a tall!"

Being slightly short, i.e. vertically challenged, this has a heightened meaning.

And depending on your ethnicity, ignoring Troy could be the best course. In the Trojan war, never could figure out who were the Greeks and who weren't.

Or, measure twice and saw once.

Cheers

Art

[Anonymous]

I have lost the track of thread but I can say it seems to have consumed irself and much seems to have been lost.


Rgds Ian

[Anonymous]

David,

If this is what you wi***o do then do so! I am all for it.
Some people like me jump in with both feet but not this time.

[Dick Friedman]

One of the problems of Garden RRer -- in fact all model RRers in my experience of 40 plus years in the hobby is the cult of the experts. For every question there are "n" experts and "n" times "n" opinions.

Ignore the ones that are stupid or offensive. Only you know whch ones those are, but it does make life simpler <G>

[Anonymous]

No one is chiding you mate, their no wrong w right way of doing anything in this business , the only part where you will get trouble is not doing it at all, just talking about it.

The best way, believe me and many others is to get yourself an LGB starter set, get it down on the ground and get it running around and go from there and the way will become obvious. (a bit like sex) and if you love what you are doing and want to go on with it; you will get all the help in the world.

If you are a catholic I can give a good point of refference.

I heard a rumour while I was in Germany that the present Pope is kean on Garden Railways and he now has 700 metres of track down in the Vatican, it is all running well and if he can do it so can you.

Incidentally he runs all LGB ( couldn't you guess) and MTS.


Rgds ian

[FJ and G]

cacole,

hope you're right and that they may have missed reading the first paragraph where I explained that it's O scale

[cacole]

Not explaining that you were talking about O scale was part of the problem that caused people to go off the deep end. G-scale rolling stock and track has UV inhibitors already built in and is made for outdoor use; O, S, HO, etc. don't. I think people assumed that you were taliing about G scale track and rolling stock.

[FJ and G]

A couple more points.

If you see a post that doesn't interest you, proper etiquette would be to simply pass by that post and not belittle the person for asking or discussing a topic that doesn't excite you or capture your interest.

secondly, it appears from a response or 2 that b/c I have so many posts, I'm a man of little action and lots of posting.

To dispell that notion, in just the last 2 years, I've been published by your sister magazine Classic Toy Trains for 2 of the major monthly features; submitted 5 articles recently to another model rr magazine, built and dismantled a medium sized layout; built and dismantled another layout using track that I developed with Romex grounding wire and -027 rails (see 1st photo) and most recently developed a layout, half of which depicts abandoned tracks and trestles (other photos).

In addition to all of that, I take care of a beagle (last photo) which i CAN assure you is more work than any of the aforementioned model train projects.

In the future, I hope you will be more respecting of beginners making their forey iinto the garden; after all, guys, it's a hobby and should be a relaxing experience; not a place to get all up tight and critical






http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce22b3127cce94379948bf6d00000015109QZOXDhs4U[/img]





[:)]

[FJ and G]

The experiment might not sound good to you but to me at least it is.

I invested a lot of time and money in purchasing these trains and want to have the best possible conditions for them.

I feel it is important to design a good experiment. After all, that's what science is all about (as well as learning). By definition, the forum is a place to learn and share ideas.

If folks start stifling discussions (although well-intentioned) talk about not experimenting and just doing it or counting the number of people's posts or belittling questions, then the flourishing of ideas and discussions will wilt.

I'm frankly disappointed that some possibly well-intentioned folks have decided to chide me for asking a few questions and positing what I consider a legitimate and possibly very useful experiment that might help countless number of folks who are not as well informed about operating trains outdoors as you. And even when experiments fail, there comes learning from them.

[John Busby]

Hi Tony
Have to agree with you havn't run a train on my experiment for a while too busy trying to get the town built for it.
And find a suitable good quality battery powered locomotive for those days I just cannot be botherd fireing a boiler or taking out the train controler.
regards John

[Kiwi Down Under]

Although it sounds like some are getting a bit uperty, their 100% right. Many times one sees the same questions which, once you start actually building your outside train the answers are rather obvious.

Forget involving hours and hours of study, experiments, ans over planning, just do it.

If you want to see what you can do with absolutely no experience in garden railways, and no one to ask, have a look at my web site www.gscalechuffchuff.com

Its far from perfect but everytime I do something I learn something new, somethings work, some not, but at least do it.

Dont get offended, but its really overkill at times. In NZ we are the closest civilised country to the large hole in the ozone layer and we have the strongest UV rays in the world. But as far as models are concerned, whats the big deal. Nothing last forever and instead of putting plastic models etc out in the sun as an experiment observe the humble plastic ice cream container. Left untouched, about 5 years in the sun... so that is how long your models will probably last for . Perhaps 10 at the outside, so plan to replace them in that time.

Just like us mortals everything deteriates with time, so stop thinking how to protect it to last for the next 100 years and get out there and do it. If your young and have 50 or so years ahead of you playing trains by all means build it like a house but how long do you expect to be able to play trains.

Once you start you will find it far more fun and challenging that studing up all the time because every day someone will have a different point of view so unless you actually do something you will never know who is right. You can always undo what you have done and start again.

If your worried about how long the plastic will last for, wait till you start worrying about keeping the track clean. Lets face it, its outside, things like to walk on it, do other things on it, leave just love laying on it, and if you plan 3 rail o scale, boy are you going to have fun as at least the g scale is large enough to pu***he leaves, twigs etc between the track, which provides roughly a 15 mm well under the loco, but yours will have a lot less space for the leaves etc to sit in.

If I was you I would be far more worried how your back is going to take the constant up and down required to put it back on the tracks so often, but thats just part of the challenge.

Keep it simple, do what you can afford and have fun.

Tony.

[Anonymous]

Troy and Jack are not condescending type blokes, they do actually do things, not as well i I do mind you, but you cannot experience anything unless you do something.

Talking about it after the event, is more satisfying than before..

ie. it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.


Rgds Ian

[John Busby]

Hi FJ&G
Butcher!! you should be shot for destroying perfectly good trains[swg]
I would have thought a good quality exterior grade flat varnish would have done the trick.
as for buildings paint them every five to ten years with a good quality exterior house paint
If you want too see how the track performs the best way is to build the line as it will be.
Your experiment will not show up all the important problems like what it does in the heat with a train on it elctrical problems ect.
Atlas claim one of their "O" tracks is suitable for out side so my sugestion is get a railway built before you are too old and decrepid to build and enjoy it.
regards John
PS none of us live forever

[FJ and G]

As you can see, I've started the experiment now, out back at the grape vinyard area, where there's lots of sun. The pickle boxcar is the unlucky candidate. In addition to painting half of the boxcar with the glossy product, I've cut a chunk out of the other side which I'll keep indoors as a color match control.

Also, hanging up on the vinyard fence (the fence is so BB the beagle can't get at the grapes) is a section of Atlas 2-rail O gauge ties. I painted glossy half of them. I don't know if you can make it out or not. Additionally, there's an 027 rail hanging in the fence for fun to see how long it takes to rust.

So, I'll be monitoring the changes and report the results. I'd rather plan ahead with a good experiment than be sorry! Hopefully, this experiment will be of help to others who are thinking of venturing out to the al fresco.

[FJ and G]

Troy writes: "With 3000 plus posts,you need to tackle more and post less."

---------------

Troy,

Perhaps I do, but I detect aires of condescention coming from you. I always believed that the purpose of the forum was to share ideas. Very few of those 3K+ posts were on this forum. They're spread between Trains, CTT and MR forums.

And, who annointed you the dictator of the forum to say how many posts one should make. Perhaps you need to get a life instead of your recreational snipping. It's guys like you (unless your a gal) who give forums a bad name and chase some good folk away.

[tangerine-jack]

FJ and G- don't call me a pro! People will be bugging me for product endorsements, mall openings, celebrity fund raisiers et al.[xx(]

Troy is right though, the absolute best way is to ask a question or two, then do it!

Good hunting!


[oX)]

[Anonymous]

With 3000 plus posts,you need to tackle more and post less.

[FJ and G]

Oh, troy, forgot perhaps to mention that it's 3 rail O. I've heard some others who've done it including an article in Garden RR couple years ago featuring a Gargraves Track layout that had lasted 20 years or more.

You're right that planning can be a drag and doing it is the FUN. However, there's a lot for me to study up on and learn from you garden pros before I tackle this thing.

[Anonymous]

I've got a good idea.
Buy some track.
That means you actually have to buy some track.
Put it in the garden.
Do I have to explain this part?
Then this is the tricky part.
You try things.
You only ask questions if you mean to do it.
Don't go on and on for months.
Try it
It's fun.

but only if it's not HO of Z in the garden.

[FJ and G]

k, here's the skinny.

Went to Pep Boys. Nothing. Advised me to go nextdoor to Sherwin-Williams. They were helpful at latter place and looked up in computer a producted called "Sher-Clear" which is clear glass waterborne acrylic liquid in 1 gallon container ($30).

For my experiment (and I'll post pictures), I'm going to take a sacrificial piece of rolling stock, actually a boxcar, and coat half with Sher-Clear and the other half leave alone. The boxcar I think is red. I'll leave it outside in the sun (south facing) for 6 months and provide you'all a report if something happens in between or at end of 6 months.

Recoat time is 2 hours. Planning on 2 coats. Says it's UV protective. Goes on milky and dries clear. However, complete cure time is 14 days so won't take it outside until it cures. Also, as additional experiment. Gonna coat some non-UV protected track ties and see what happens to those.

[Anonymous]

If you want to talk UV try coming to Australia located right next to the hole in ozone layer over antarctica. As a result this is the qorld capital of skin cancer.


Rgds Ian

[Rene Schweitzer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Armorall destroys car tires if you use it and then stop, because it causes the synthetic rubber to dry out and crack unless you keep using it throughout the lifetime of the tire.

Yes, I have heard this too. My dad has told me that with newer tires today, there is already an additive in the rubber which protects against UV, and there is no need to apply anything. (He's the manager of a tire store, so I figure he would know!)

[tangerine-jack]

Artificial UV light indoors is infintesimal compared to the Mark I thermonuclear heating source that floats around in the sky everyday. When was the last time you saw a cubicle geek with a sunburn from his office lights?

Your right in that UV light will affect buildings and anything else made of plastic. Manufacturers of garden RR equipment spend a lot of money on researching plastic formulations that are UV resistant and still prove cost effective. Indoor manufactures don't do this, it's not important for them to do so.

Good luck and be sure to post some photos!!!


[oX)]

[FJ and G]

Thanks for advice. Looks like clear coat followed by dullcoate is the way to go. That will also be a good time to add chalks and stuff for weathering before applying the 2 liquid coats to seal it in. None of my stuff is collectible nor post-war. Just modern (but still of sentimental value!).

This UV topic I guess could also apply to plastic structures you may wi***o display in your garden. For that matter, UV from florescent bulbs also can deteriorate so this info can apply to stuff indoors as well.

Thanks for replies.

Dave Vergun

[cacole]

Armorall destroys car tires if you use it and then stop, because it causes the synthetic rubber to dry out and crack unless you keep using it throughout the lifetime of the tire.