DCC in "G" LARGE SCALE MAINLINES that are 500 foot and more

[EMPIRE II LINE]

 

So does anyone out here have any real LARGE SCALE experience with a DCC type set up and how well it performs on a really large mainline, say 500 foot or more in length, one that also has a lot of power/signal loosing switches in it's overall design. That is where I am having the problem with getting the signal from MTH's DCS (Digital Comand System) signal to go through. Even with using all "Split-Jaw" rail clamps in the layout. Mind you soldering jumpers is out, I use the Aristo stainless steel track.

I've recently been communicating with a gent in south Florida, who says he is coating all of his clamps and track ends with electrical conductive grease before assembly, as yet he has not run a train on any of the layout. I'm curious to hear if that helps conduct the signal any better or not, as he is using the same basic power set up as I presently am.  

So is it feasible to use any of the popular DCC sytems that are being used for the smaller scales, like N, or HO. On a really huge "G" scale layout ?? Does it work ?? That is, does it get the signal through out the whole layout ??

Byron

[cacole]

It sounds to me like you just need to run more power feeds to various points on your trackwork.  I'd try to have power applied at least every 20 to 25 feet.

[EMPIRE II LINE]

 

With this DCS system that only seems to confuse the signal, the fewer leads the better, so everyone who uses it says...

My main thread here is, has anyone been able to incorporate the use of any of the popular DCC systems successfully on a really long mainline "G" scale layout ?? 

Byron

[thomastoo]

I have just wired the first 200 feet of a 400 foot layout. I have an Easy DCC system from CVP Products using their 10 amp booster and wireless throtle. Out of the box it worked very well. I have brass track with Hillman railclamps. For the next 200 feet of track I will use a second 10 amp booster. I have not yet tried any programming but so far the commands seem to be going through very well.

[GearDrivenSteam]

I think all yall are just braggin. LOL

[TheMacDiesel]

Byron,

 I don't have the "real world" experience, yet, but I'm in the similar boat you are...  I'm putting down a parallel mainline with 250' of track on each line (little over 500' total, plus some spurs, switchyard, etc)  I've purchased the NCE PowerCab Pro (Wireless) 10A system (separate cab and booster) and a power supply, and am having my LHS finish up four decoder installations (I'm swamped at work right now, so it's that or let them sit for a couple weeks )-- I'm hopeful I'll have trains on the 40' of track I have laid by week's end...

I'm doing SplitJaw with conductive paste on Brass code 332 -- a mix of Aristo and LGB.  I spoke to an engineer from NCE at length, and they do recommend power drops to the track every 20-30 feet, at minimum, on a large layout.  We'll see how that works out.  I'm currently wiring for three "power districts" on the mainline -- two for the main loop, and one for the switch-yard / passing siding.  I'll run it on one booster initially, since I'm months away from having the full line finished. 

 I'll keep posting to let you know how it goes, if you'd like.

 --Sean--

[EMPIRE II LINE]

 

Robert,

Bigger lines just require bigger ideas and power sometimes. Now that the manufacturers are starting to think beyond narrow gauge only. Ever since I had my first Lionel in 1951 the Santa Fe Chief passenger set, I've always loved the magnificence of the streamliner era, and the transition from the huge steamers to diesel era. That's what I grew up in, a busy city, lots of train activity, Akron, Ohio---Rubber City, you know.....And the Great Northern RR has a colorful history as well as Paint Scheme......OK.....Maybe Just a little bragging though !!!!

And Sean,

Yes, please do keep us updated, anything new, and an understanding of how it seems to work best, OK, best for you, is always appriciated.

Byron 

[Anonymous]

Byron, Any good electrical conductive grease is great to use as I used on my last RR was LGB electrical grease. Have to say it did the job!

[two tone]

Take a look around your layout?   Do you have over head power lines, not a straight line between you and base station. Is your power supply big enough IE 20 amps Is there any metal dustbins or such like that can sap signal?    Hope comments help

[stanames]

So does anyone out here have any real LARGE SCALE experience with a DCC type set up and how well it performs on a really large mainline, say 500 foot or more in length, one that also has a lot of power/signal loosing switches in it's overall design.

 

Yes lots of experience with DCC, no experience with DCS  (DCS is not DCC).  http://www.tttrains.com/sjrp

I tend to ovekill things with a bus line and feeders and do not rely much on rail joiners.

 Stan

[EMPIRE II LINE]

 

Yes lots of experience with DCC, no experience with DCS  (DCS is not DCC).  http://www.tttrains.com/sjrp

I tend to ovekill things with a bus line and feeders and do not rely much on rail joiners.

 Stan

So Stan,

Where are you located, are you using brass track, who's brand track do you use, or do you make your own, and how long is your mainline track ?

Do you have a lot of switches in your layout, and who's DCC system are you using ? 

OH, Last off how long has your line been in operation ?

Any info is appriciated....Byron   

PS: DCS- Digital Command System is similar to DCC- Digital Command Control, I think....

 

And also TOAD, is it BILL,

I'm going to definitely do the conductive grease thing, but for now, I'll wait till this heat breaks, their talk'in 95 with heat index of 103 today. 

Just did finish mowing and trimming yard again, early this morn'in, every 8 ta 10 days this time'a year, and also pressure washed some used awnings, I'm gonna put'em up over 4 of my windows, including 2 over the windows in the train room, gott'a try an keep some'o the sun out.

All the advice everyones giving is certainly appriciated, much of it will be implemented....

Byron 

[bobgrosh]

My mainline is 234 feet, 8 inches. There are 12 turnouts. There is an additional 198 feet of sidings and branch line. That is approaching 500 feet total track.

I'm using DCC (Digitrax command station) I have close to 80 mobile decoders including Digitrax, LGB, Lenz, TCS, Phoenix, Soundtrax and NCE. There are 76 stationary decoders for lights, turnouts, signals , etc.

 All the rail is currently LGB brass, all joiners are split jaw, no grease used in the joiners. There is currently a single 8 guage duplex feeder from each booster to the rails. I typically have 10 trains on the rails, and run as many as 7 at one time. That includes 12 lighted passenger cars and 8 lighted cabooses.

My layout has been in operation using DCC for over 7 years. I have had no problems at all getting the DCC signal to any part of the railroad.

 

I'm a little confused about your mixing the term "DCS" and "DCC" Are you asking about anyone getting DCS to run outside on a larger railroad? Or trying to decide if you should switch to DCC?

DCS and DCC are two entirely different things.

DCS is a small control signal that is superimposed on top of either AC or DC track voltage. The control signal is quite small.

Think of DCS as a river. The constant flow of water propels boats or turns waterwheels at mills along the river. The boats and mills are powered by the flow of water. You could sent signals to the boat captains, or the mill operators by slapping you hand on the top of the river to make waves. The captains and operators would have to watch the surface of the water to see your signals. The farther up or down river they are, the harder it will be for them to see your signals. If the river branches, the signals will be even harder for them to see.

DCC is a large control signal. There is no ac or dc on the rails at all! Just the DCC signal. The DCC signal itself can a light a bulb, or run a motor.

Think of DCC as a river with no flowing water. There is a dam with a big gate. The gate opens and closes constantly to form a signal. Opening and closing it rapidly represents a 1. Opening and closing it slowly represents a 0. As a result, the water in the river flows, stops, flows, stops etc. The length of the flows and stops is used to signal the captains and mill operators along the river. Even if the river splits, each branch still flows and stops.

On a DCC system, the signal is so strong that it will run motors, and lights. The decoder decides, based on the messages it gets from the signal how to apply the signal to the motor and lights.

On DCC, the signal IS the power. If you want to check to see if a bad joiner is cutting off the DCC signal, put a Light bulb across the rails. If it lights, then you have a DCC signal. In reality, a DCC decoder should never have a problem seeing the data sent to it. That is, at least not until the signal becomes so weak that the decoder can not extract enough POWER from the signal to operate.

B0B

[enginear]

I found that wire length has to be short as possible as large # as possible and divide your layout into sections and bridge the TIU channels together( if one transformer is used) keep track sections short about 70' in length but you can jump nearby sections.  just posted some results today under mth control issues

[Anonymous]

So what ever happened here?

[enginear]

I posted solutions previously that really I got from raymond at http://www.rayman4449dynip.com/. The biggest solution came from connecting a correct bulb that draws enough to clean up the track signal to allow the engines to transpond. Track connections were a lower but important problem after once the signal made it to the track. I also had to modify antennas on the mth to get rid of out of range error messages!

 from an O gauge post:

As we all know, wiring a bulb across the output of the TIU (or alternatively, across the input to a barrier strip) can significantly enhance a DCS signal. I became curious as to what would be the best bulb to use. So I ran a series of tests looking at the DCS signal for a variety of bulbs. The test set up is as follows:

Layout, 2 rail DCS, with the TMCC signal active
Locos are two Atlas RSD-7s, running in a lashup. Both have been converted to DCS
15 scale mph speed
3 minute lap time
Train goes through eight blocks, which are distributed to two TIU channels
Each channel powered by a Lionel ZW running at 18 V nominal
The bulbs are located at the input to the barrier strip
The same type of bulb is used in each channel
I confined the tests to bulbs that have a standard bayonet base to make them compatible with my system

I recorded the track signal every time a new one appeared on the hand held. I recorded all the error messages as a zero. Typically I took 130 -150 readings in one circuit. I averaged the readings and calculated the standard deviation to get some idea of how much the signal varied. Results are:


Bulb Type: None
Track Signal Average 1.5
Standard Deviation +/- .86

Bulb Type: 1445 (14.4 V, .13 Amps, 2000 hours)
Track Signal Average 5.70
Standard Deviation +/- 1.73

Bulb Type: 363 (14 V, 0.20 Amps, 250 hours)
Track Signal Average 7.49
Standard Deviation +/- 1.70

Bulb Type: 1893 (14 V, 0.33 Amps, 7500 hours)
Track Signal 7.94
Standard Deviation +/- 1.35

Bulb Type: 1826 (18 V, .15 Amps, 250 hours)
Track Signal Average 4.69
Standard Deviation +/- 1.96

Bulb Type: 1818 (24 V, .17 Amps, 250 hours)
Track Signal Average 4.59
Standard Deviation +/- 1.19

Obviously any bulbs helps. I would have really liked the 1818 Bulb to be good, because that is a 24 V bulb and hence would last longer running on my 18 V. But as you can see I got not only the highest track signal, but also the lowest relative standard deviation with the1893 bulb.

Incidentally, you can get all these bulbs from http://www.interlight.biz/ Just plug in the bulb number in the search box in the upper left hand corner

I hope this worked for him and anyone else encountering this set of problems. Ask me anything else I can help you with. Joe at [e-mail]. I'll be signing off for good soon cause I lost my job and running out of cash fast!

[spikejones52002]

I read in several of the replys about conductive greese.

I picked up several tubes of copper color conductive greese in my loco big box store. I read the label about its benefits and warnings. After using it on all of my rail joints.

I took a OHM meter and stuck the probes into the greese in the tube. I got a "INF" reading.

You would do better purchasing a tube of "NEVER SEZE" from the auto parts store. It will not wash away with the rain.

[hoofe116]

So is it feasible to use any of the popular DCC sytems that are being used for the smaller scales, like N, or HO. On a really huge "G" scale layout ?? Does it work ?? That is, does it get the signal through out the whole layout ??

Byron

Byron: I just finished reading a magazine put out by MR. It cost me $14.99 and is about 25 pages thick. The pages are thick, too. It covers DCC for beginners. I figured, after a year of trying to decipher DCC & R/C DCC, I trekked to the closest hobby shop, a mere 25 miles or so away. The guy wouldn't talk to me, kept repeating, "Buy the books and read them." So, WTH, I did.

To directly answer your question: I have no experience along the lines you're inquiring about. But, I did read where power boosters are advised for larger layouts. I assume you know this but posted in case you didn't. It seems the 'control center' or whatever they call the encoder part, puts out a rather puny signal, and it needs to be amplified, hence the boosters. It suggests dividing a big layout into 'zones' or suchlike, with a dedicated booster to each zone. Since my layout will be comparatively tiny, I didn't pay a lot of attention.

You may be aware already that track itself can act like an antenna for all sorts of stray electrical emissions. I don't know why someone hasn't whipped up a tuned bypass filter and put it on the market. Perhaps they're on the decoder module, the mag took care not to burden the reader with a lot of technical facts. Thus, the signal the onboard decoder sees is 'noisy'. And if boosters aren't used, according to the mag, the signal strength, due to resistive and other losses in the track, falls too low to be reliable.

Hope this helps.

Les W.