I was sitting on the throne (aka the library/reading room) looking through the Lionel 2007 Vol 1 catalog when I spotted a cool loco. The "baby FM"... aka H16-44. I dunno of any other train maker in O-Gauge that makes these. But there it was. And me being a BIG FM fan. Excellent!!! Even better....it's available in NYC colors!!! Even better....it's O-SCALE!!! Oh man...I was ready to whip out the old plastic and send in a pre-order. Then I read the specs on it and the roof caved in on me Let me quote "these new CONVENTIONAL diesels offer an affordable way for anyone to expand their Standard O motive power roster". HUH???? Since when were people who buy Standard O locos looking for "affordable" options???? If I wanted "affordable" I'd buy Traditional stuff or Williams locos. I buy Standard O because they have high end features and all the bells and whistles (pardon the pun) on them. This loco is a stripped down version with NO Trainsounds, NO Railsounds, NO Crewtalk, NO TMCC, just a horn and smoke. Did I miss something somewhere??? Was there a massive plea to Lionel from those buying Standard O asking for LESS options on their locos??? I don't get it. Are they trying to "ease in" traditional buyers to Standard O? Anyone got any explainations on this? In the meantime, I've got to pass on what would be a pretty neat addition to my collection.
Disgruntled DepP.S. I know I can add all kinds of options to the loco. But that's not my point. They should already BE there.
Virginian Railroad
As a matter of fact, such pleas are regularly made, by me, for one example.
I don't want the extra expense of useless features, but I do want the scale or near-scale dimensions.
Other than the O27 stuff I run for nostalgia's sake, I have exactly two trains, one Frisco frieght, one T & P passenger, and both are scale pieces. There are two more engines I want: a Frisco Ten Wheeler and a MoPac RS-11. Both are scale, but both are loaded with electronic gimcrakery which drives their prices too high for me. I dearly wish that Lionel had made them without the bells and whistles and especially without the CC so that I could employ and afford them.
With luck, this trend at Lionel for some scale-sized but uncomplicated locos will produce others I can afford.
Don't put that credit card away just yet. Check back a few years as this engine in NYC was offered with TMCC, Odyssey and a fantastic FM sound set. I bought the NH version that was offered. I recently sold it to a friend that wanted it. I'm more of a steam era opperator. As far as this engine goes. It was a fantastic runner. Featured 4 pickup rollers that made it virtually stall free and was a smooth runner with those unique FM motor sounds. Even smoked better than my Lionel steamers. The only negative I noticed on the NYC version. Was that the Central ran long nose forward and the engineer was facing the wrong way. An easy fix I'm sure. I want to say they are at least 4 years old. I believe on Lionels site you can go back to their archived catalogs. Call some dealers or put out a want for one. They are out there.
Lionel is bringing back a lot of engines with simple conventional control. Many like the simplicity with no electronics. Look at the following William's has. They recently cataloged their 0-8-0 switchers in this manner as well.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
thor wrote:Frankly I think its a great idea.
don't drag me into this!
Money talks and the majority has spoken. Lionel issued several modern dash type diesels a few years ago... the same deal. Standard 0 locos with all the detail of the fully loaded engines, but stripped down electronically and conventional for $250 list and they sold out fast. I recall speaking to a dealer friend and the conversation came around to conventional versus TMCC. In reference to those stripped down locos, he said they went very fast and could sell more but was unable to get more. There's a conversation that happens seldom in reference to the very expensive high end.
Would the RMT BEEP sell as well if it was only available with the high end electronics? We all know the answer is a resounding NO. High end buyers are more likely to buy a basic loco to add the additional electronics more so than a conventional operator will pay more for the factory added electronics only to have to remove them. Not that RMT makes money from these upgrades, but they sell more units because those upgrades are available. And in all honesty, it is probably better on a quality/reliability level to have the electronics installed for you here stateside by one fo the frims that specializes in such things: you have service, you have parts available, and techs who can answer questions and know what they are doing.
Simple reality, the conventional market is bigger even though it's buyers and participants are not as loud. You don't read the threads about conventional locos being DOA, not working right, waiting 6 months for service and with no parts available the way you do about the high end locos. I dobut any conventional operator waits 6 months for parts and service the way others do. I think the only reason you don't see more of these conventional locos being offered is the prestige factor with the two big companies having developed their own digital systems and the investment capital they have invested in those systems.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
palallin wrote: As a matter of fact, such pleas are regularly made, by me, for one example.I don't want the extra expense of useless features, but I do want the scale or near-scale dimensions. Other than the O27 stuff I run for nostalgia's sake, I have exactly two trains, one Frisco frieght, one T & P passenger, and both are scale pieces. There are two more engines I want: a Frisco Ten Wheeler and a MoPac RS-11. Both are scale, but both are loaded with electronic gimcrakery which drives their prices too high for me. I dearly wish that Lionel had made them without the bells and whistles and especially without the CC so that I could employ and afford them. With luck, this trend at Lionel for some scale-sized but uncomplicated locos will produce others I can afford.
Just a thought, Weaver makes all of their locomotives in both conventional and TMCC, you might take a look at their line.
I personally preferred the OPTION to convert convertional scale diesels to TMCC and railsounds- by selling these 'CONVENTIONAL ONLY' engines Lionel leaves the corps of diehard scale buyers no choice but to obtain aftermarket electronics to upgrade these engines.I know they also did it to sell more engines and avoid making more TMCC and railsounds modules (or avoid running short of available supplies), but Lionel took a very viable option from those of us who like both scale dimensions and command control, but wanted to wait to upgrade or couldn't afford to buy a fully loaded engine.Geno
Dave Connoly: Thanks for the info. I had no idea it was available with all the goodies. As to me being a rich SOB...just ain't so. I save my money I get from my pension until I can afford what I want. No silver spoon in my mouth I'm trying to understand....are you guys wanting to buy scale locos to pull conventional-size freight cars? I tend to not mix my cars together if at all possible. I have locos in both scale and conventional and like to keep the rolling stock seperated. As to stripped locos being nice...I think they could AT LEAST put Trainsounds into it. I mean they put that in some of their lowest level trainsets and they sell for about the same as this one loco. I am NOT knocking Williams-style locos without all the fancy gadgets. I just wish Lionel would keep the budget stuff seperate from the Standard O stuff. Let me quote Lionels own words describing Standard O... "Acurate reproductions of rolling stock and locomotives. Scale proportions. Super-detailed with many seperately applied parts." Now if they are gonna drop the quality and options on Standard O to Traditional levels, they better be dang sure they are willing to lose the Standard O buyers. An even better idea would have been if Lionel took the MTH approach of upgrading the lower line to a higher level, rather than downgrading their top line. MTH Rail King has a bunch of scale locos and pretty much ALL their Rail King locos have Proto 2 as standard equipment. And they work in both conventional and DCS modes.
Dep
I also pre-ordered the Santa Fe F3 AB. It smokes and has a horn. My son John is a Santa Fe freak, so he is going to love it. It is the only way I would be able to get a loco that detailed and scale brand new at a price I'm comfortable with. It's due to ship this month.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I'm a conventional kinda guy.
"Keep your hand on the throttle, and your eye upon the rail..."
fifedog wrote:I'm a conventional kinda guy."Keep your hand on the throttle, and your eye upon the rail..."
I'm a conventional kinda guy too. But you got the saying wrong. It goes like this...
"Get your hand off the bottle and back on the throttle"!
fifedog wrote: Gee, Jimbo, we could be the next Rogers & Hamburger!!!
"MTH Rail King has a bunch of scale locos and pretty much ALL their Rail King locos have Proto 2 as standard equipment."
Thus pricing it out of the preferred price range of many of those posting on this thread. One size may not fit all, and Lionel is trying to meet that variety of demands. It's that simple.
sir james I wrote:YA but,,,,,,,,,,Having Proto 2 in everything is what keeps me from buying MTH.
Good point. More than a few of us just want to run conventional trains without all the electronics.
Well I always like to follow the money trail. And in this case I think Lionel coming out with a stripped-down version of this loco has nothing to do with catering to the folks wanting an inexpensive gigantic O-scale loco to pull conventional-size rolling stock . I think they came out with this version because the baby FM was a BOMB in the retail market. It's not exactly stylish like an F3. It's not an awesome puller like it's bigger brother the FM Trainmaster. It's not well known and recognized among the toy train fraternity. And for the price of $400 samolies, you could have got a loco that DID have all those advantages. I suspect this re-release is an effort by Lionel to get rid of something that didn't move worth squat as a full-featured loco. And they could use the electronics on a loco that WAS a big seller. I guess looking at it from that point of view....it makes sense.
"I think they came out with this version because the baby FM was a BOMB in the retail market."
It's a reasonable theory contradicted by the facts. Lionel has increased the range of conventionally controlled, but scale size locos, across the board. This loco isn't a one-off to make use of tooling that wasn't successful, as you suggest, but part of a dozen or more similar locos in the new catalogs. It represents Lionel's recognition or perception of the demand for conventionally controlled locomotives at more palatable price points. It's that simple, at least to me :).
nblum wrote: "I think they came out with this version because the baby FM was a BOMB in the retail market." It's a reasonable theory contradicted by the facts. Lionel has increased the range of conventionally controlled, but scale size locos, across the board. This loco isn't a one-off to make use of tooling that wasn't successful, as you suggest, but part of a dozen or more similar locos in the new catalogs. It represents Lionel's recognition or perception of the demand for conventionally controlled locomotives at more palatable price points. It's that simple, at least to me :).
Hmmmm...I guess Lionel is also "redefining" what Standard O really means too. What this loco represents is NOT what is described in their catalogs or what has generally been taken as Standard O norm. I guess anyone who already has Standard O is gonna have to be REAL careful about what they buy in the future. Standard O now only refers to the scale size of the loco and does not necessarily mean the top-of-the-line in Lionel locos as far as features, details, and equipment.
Standard O as a category BEGAN simply as scale-sized and detailed, long before TMCC, RS, Cruise Control, and the other stuff. The first Lionel Standard O cars were derived from Pola 2-rail O molds.
In any case, I don't use the scale locos to pull traditional rolling stock; they pull scale (or near scale, in the case of the K-line passenger cars) rolling stock.
I made a choice between lots of traditional or fewer but larger scale (or nearly so) and went witht he latter as a way of simplifying my life and hobby. I sold off a couple thousand dollars worth of traditional stuff--over a dozen locos and many cars--to buy one loco and a few cars (and also pay off a raft of my wife's medical bills). I now have two trains, one passenger and one freight. As my layout won't really allow more than a few additional pieces, those two trains are all I need. If I can ever find those other two locos I want, I can swap them for the current two for variety, but my maintenance, my storage, and my budget burdens got a LOT lighter when I decided to simplify.
And since I am happiest with Lionel (to answer John, whose suggestion I appreciate), I stick with them (except for the great K-line passenger cars for my T & P engine), furhter simplfying the situation.
All of this simplification is of a piece with the fact that my life is 'way too complicated. Fewer, simpler trains makes my hobby more enjoyable. If you like the complicated stuff, be my guest and welcome! I think it's neat. But it's not for me.
Way back in 1995, I was in the first grade, and received my first Lionel train set.
The catalog that year was the first catalog to showcase the full range of TMCC equipment, along with the first TMCC locomotives.
In all 120 pages of that catalog, there are 5 pages which bear the heading "Standard O". In not one of those pages is there anything which included TMCC, Railsounds, or modern conveniences. All of the standard O items were simply larger versions of the items in the O27 section-i.e. 6464 sized items, as opposed to smaller items.
Dep,
We're telling you that if you want an NYC FM with all the goodies, they're out there. Lionel made them when they first introduced the tooling for the Baby Trainmaster. They have TMCC, Railsounds, smoke, Odyssey, etc. They're everything you want.
You could still buy new Baby FMs from the first round two years ago-it took that long for the first ones to sell out. No way is Lionel going to re-release a full-featured engine that took two years to clear off the dealers shelves in the first place. Hence the reason behind this new conventional engine.
ben10ben wrote: Way back in 1995, I was in the first grade, and received my first Lionel train set. The catalog that year was the first catalog to showcase the full range of TMCC equipment, along with the first TMCC locomotives. In all 120 pages of that catalog, there are 5 pages which bear the heading "Standard O". In not one of those pages is there anything which included TMCC, Railsounds, or modern conveniences. All of the standard O items were simply larger versions of the items in the O27 section-i.e. 6464 sized items, as opposed to smaller items. Dep,We're telling you that if you want an NYC FM with all the goodies, they're out there. Lionel made them when they first introduced the tooling for the Baby Trainmaster. They have TMCC, Railsounds, smoke, Odyssey, etc. They're everything you want.You could still buy new Baby FMs from the first round two years ago-it took that long for the first ones to sell out. No way is Lionel going to re-release a full-featured engine that took two years to clear off the dealers shelves in the first place. Hence the reason behind this new conventional engine.
I hear ya Ben...but I ain't buying (the loco). The taxicab/stripped down version is not my cup of tea. And the loaded version seems to be non-existent as far as availability at online dealers is concerned. Oh well.
Ask and ye shall receive
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