First let me point out that I pre ordered the items that I'm about to describe. Thus this is a post about thier strange display First of all I looked for the Christmas catalog and was told that they had none? However I bought one from a vedor. Here are a few items I preordered:1. Girls Lavender Archive Fort Knox Mint Car (The body was on display with no silver bars, glass, wheels or bottom JUST THE SHELL ????2. Girls Archive N&W Quad Hopper (Again no wheels JUST THE SHELL ????3. Halloween Handcar was assembled however the two figures wern't even painted :eek: Why ???? These are only 3 of the items as there were many more like this! Think they would have borrowed parts from another Mint Car to make a nice display ?Even the hopper ??? All it needed was wheels !Or the Halloween Handcar ! Have someone paint the figures Over all I was disappointed and thought thier display wasn't that great ...IMO they could have done better....
njalb1,
The thing with Disney is, it's a Mickey Mouse organization!
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
jaabat wrote: njalb1,The thing with Disney is, it's a Mickey Mouse organization! Jim
Jim your right! I'm surprisewd no others have posted ????
Guess this is ...........
Seriously, I think Lionel is focused on venues and audiences other than York. I think they just make a token appearance there. The starter sets and associated rolling stock and accessories seem to be their primary focus. And if the latest earnings report is any indicator, they are doing the right thing in that regard.
I'm with Jim on this one, or flip the coin - he's with me.
I wasn't at YORK this year, but common sense would seem to say that as long as Lionel was, that they would have a display worthy of their status. Most of us understand mock-ups have long been used. But as the final products have become more sophisticated (and techniques/technology for making mock-ups has improved), one would think Lionel would have somewhat more finished products on display.
BUT I have long felt YORK is over-rated, It is a big show, fun and important to some degree. But not nearly as much as some think. Given most of Lionel's sales are generated during the pre-CHRISTmas months, and much of this is from starter sets and related items, one might conclude YORK isn't as important to Lionel's well-stated goals as the die-hard scale enthusiasts seem to feel.
Anyone who has attneded in recent years can see clearly the age divide in attendance. YORK is mostly older, greying, wealthy and retired.... and retired with generous pension benefits as many of us will not be in the years to come. This age group is NOT the future of the hobby, evne though the other forum might have you think it is. Neither are more excessive high end products or Legacy the future of the hobby, despite Clyde Coil's pontifcations that Legacy will make the hobby more fun for familes. NO. Not until Legacy comes with starter sets at the same price point they're at now. Not likely given the millions Lionel probably has in it now.
Until Lionel comes out of official bankruptcy, I'm sure we'll see the continued cost cutting, like with lack of advertising. But Lionel has their web site, catalogs and more public retail exposure than they've had in some time. This is where the new customers are... at Target and places of the like, and not at YORK. Not until YORK becomes open to anyone, and the emphasis turns to low end products, kid friendly displays and interactive product displays. I'm sorry, but I've done lots of train shows and guys running high end expensive train engines are not letting young kids take the throttle. And kids don't get interested in something they're told they can't operate or touch.
And without revelaing any names (which those people probably wouldn't like me doing) I have heard it from people inside train companies that while they look forward to YORK in some respects, they dread it in others: that they are going to hear a lot of incessant complaining and get lengthy lists of products to be made that are unprofitable and not at all practical to even consider making.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
brianel027
Thanks for your reply. you have some valid points
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
I wouldn't call it weird, but it did have a kinda plain brown wrapper appearance. The layout appeared to be in its infancy stage, without scenery. They had new product up on wall displays, but in a word---lacking.
It was so impressive I walked right by it without really even looking.
No catalogs, no demos, nothing really.
Very disappointing to say the least.
Listening to the York reports, it sounds like maybe Lionel has even less than the 90 people supposedly on their worldwide payroll.
I am curious as to how Gargraves presented themselves, as I am planning some new track purchases....Also, how well was Ross represented?? (switches)
BDT
Also, how well was Ross represented?? (switches)
Ross was doing a booming business at York, They were located right behind me and their booth was jumping for the whole show. They've got a new high speed cross over switch, turntable and transfer table. They are also expanding into Standard Gauge Track.
I wish you guys would give it a rest and just start your own seven building show somewhere!!
TCA is a non-profit group under Pennsylvaina law. TCA York is operated by the Eastern Division, a Club, for the Club Members only. Attendence in this week's show was well over 14,000, a further gain, with 400 "guests" who received applications.
Lionel's display was about the same size as usual, but combined Lionel and K-Line. Few new products were shown.
MTH display was huge with lots of new products with ????? delivery dates. You know them.
The Atlas display took tons of room, it was as big as K-Line alone once had.
A great and successful show, 3 halls of Manufactures and Dealers, 1 Hall of operating layouts, 4 halls of Member Tables selling as in a big tag sale, State Fair food carts all over the place.
It was 3 days of fun.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
"ROSS was the presence in track...Huge display, lots of product- lots of attendants there to answer questions. The Gargraves "phonebooth" was hard to find. Make your own conclusions."
I think sometimes TCA members (of which I am one) lose track of perspective. A significant number of three railers and toy train fans show up at York, but it's only about 15% of the active members of the hobby, albeit some of the most active and high spending. On the other hand, this is tiny cottage industry, with the largest player, Lionel, having revenues of about 60 million a year, which is tiny even by local, not to mention national or international standards. Thus the resources available to these companies for marketing, booths, etc. are quite limited. Companies like Ross and Gargraves, at most, do business in the high hundreds of thousands or low millions of dollars per year, and that guess may be on the high side.
Here's my take. Lionel, particularly while constrained by bankruptcy, spent its limited marketing revenues this last year on national visibility displays and newbies to the hobby, with layouts in Macy's, Grand Central Station, and placement of their products in Target and other mainstream retailers. Lionel is by far the best recognized name in this hobby and most of its fans do not go to York, nor need York to promote their interest in Lionel's products. Would I like to see a glitzier Lionel exhibit at York? Sure. Does it affect my purchases of Lionel products that their exhibit is mundane and unglamorous? Not in the least, and I'm sure I'm typical of long time Lionel operators/collectors. What about MTH? Well, they're a distant number two in the industry now, not the technical innovator nor the one the public or long-time collector/operator knows about since childhood. They also are located an hour away, so putting up an expensive, whizzy exhibit is both easy and cheaper than for Lionel, and they're in second place so they need to work harder at attracting attention.
What about Gargraves? Well, Gargraves has been around a half century, their product is well known to all three rail operators, and it's much cheaper than Ross. Ross, like MTH, appeals primarily to hi-railers and the high end of the marketplace, with little presence amongst the beginner and modest layout builders, who tend toward Lionel, Williams, K-Line, etc. and Gargraves. So Ross has to work harder to bring attention to their very high quality, excellent, pricey but less well known product than does Gargraves. And York is definitely the higher end of the spectrum, on average. So don't read too much into the quality of the displays as a measure of the success of the company or its plans for the future. There's a reason they call it advertising/marketing, and that there isn't always a one to one correspondence between style and substance.
That's my interpretation of what we see at York ;).
DMUinCT wrote: TCA is a non-profit group under Pennsylvaina law. TCA York is operated by the Eastern Division, a Club, for the Club Members only. Attendence in this week's show was well over 14,000, a further gain, with 400 "guests" who received applications.Lionel's display was about the same size as usual, but combined Lionel and K-Line. Few new products were shown.MTH display was huge with lots of new products with ????? delivery dates. You know them.The Atlas display took tons of room, it was as big as K-Line alone once had. A great and successful show, 3 halls of Manufactures and Dealers, 1 Hall of operating layouts, 4 halls of Member Tables selling as in a big tag sale, State Fair food carts all over the place.It was 3 days of fun.
Boy did this original topic get off track
Ahhh, but if you ask anyone who has worked there or for the mouse, the mouse BITES!
Kurt
NYC Fan wrote: "Until York opens its doors to the public to draw them in and changes from boxed collectables to operating layouts and trains youth can touch, it will slowly, but ever so surely, get smaller and smaller and become of less importance to the manufactuer. This may take a decade or so but it will eventually happen." I wish you guys would give it a rest and just start your own seven building show somewhere!!
Well said NYC FAN. Lets see what kind of show they would have? This is the best train show period.
laz57
Neil, very well said.
NYC Fan, it has nothing to do with "giving it a rest" or starting our own 7 building show. From years of doing train shows and having been to YORK, I can tell you truthfully I've seen more newcomers enter the hobby at a small one or two building show where there were plenty of kid-friendly operating displays than I have ever seen at YORK. And given the logistics of the trip to YORK, the increased hotel costs during the show, having to be a member of the TCA and having to make a reservation - there is a distinct advantage to the local union hall show where everyone and anyone is welcome for the simple admission at the door. Why would we want 7 buidlings when we can accomplish growth and share the hobby with newcomers in just one?
Maybe the folks who need to give it a rest are the ones who approach YORK with the same attitude of a pilgrimage. Or the ones who insistantly want the train companies to cater to their every single whim, regardless of the expense to everyone else.
In the "give it a rest" deparmtnet, maybe the next time there's some "suggestion" on the other forum for the train companies to make such-and-such a loco and then 15 guys chime in saying they want one maybe they could all chip in and split the two or three million dollar development costs between just them. That way the rest of us don't have to pay higher prices for the trains we like, where the tooling and dies have long long long been paid for. Like it or not (and I have heard it direct) the traditonal and starter train sales basically make welfare payments to the development of the high end scale trains. Which is ironic because so many scale guys are completely intolerant, elitist and snobbish towards 027 "toy" trains.
That said, YORK is a great show and a fun opportunity if one is able to attend. And I've always said every train guy should have the chance to go at least once. But YORK is not the be-all and end-all of the train world. And given the state of the hobby, I agree that it will become of less significance in the near years to come. Even the TCA itself has had to address the issues of their aging membership and the declining interest. I've noticed more and more trains in estate sales from deceased train collectors because their surviving family members don't want the stuff.
And contributing even more greatly to the potential decline in importance of YORK is the internet and eBay. The train companies all have websites and take advantage of the train forums too. So plenty of buzz can be created at little expense or aggrivation. And whereas at one time is was almost essential to go to YORK to locate hard-to-find or collectible trains, eBay has changed that completely. And with eBay alone, YORK is now and will never be the same again.
With the changing times and changing market, I wouldn't be foolish enough today to even want to start a 7-building show, when just one will do.
Has this thread taken the position that because the Lionel display was weak the whole York show is over. Sure there's e-bay or auctions you can buy trains at. Old musty dead grandpa trains, but are manufacturers going to invest in tooling for a spot on e-bay?
I have personal experience since I manufacture accessories. I made the Steel El for O-Gauge subway sets. Later I was approached by Standard Gauge Groups who wanted it too and I set up production for that. This last York I got a visit from both Marklin 1 Gauge and LGB/Aristocraft people and I'm preparing to make it for those folks next. None of this would have happened without the feedback from York.
Forget Lionel, MTH, and Atlas, just about every third table in the Orange Hall was somebody making something for the Hobby. You've got your choice of a wide selection of switches and tracks, landscape materials, electronics, cars, boats, planes, people and structures. None of this would have happened without some central location to demonstate the goods.
Don't be so quick to pull the plug on York, unless you want to bid on-line for the same old dead grandpa trains.
Quote
" Don't be so quick to pull the plug on York, unless you want to bid on-line for the same old dead grandpa trains."
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
I don't read anyone saying York is irrelevant or should die. It's just that probably 90% of the people who buy toy trains never even go to York, so it makes no sense to argue that York is the most important marketing tool for new trains. That would be the catalogs, magazines, public displays, hobby shops, etc., before one even thinks about York as a factor.
Lionel has chosen, for whatever reasons, not to spend money on their York exhibit. Bankruptcy, distance from York, and other marketing needs taking precedence are a pretty good explanation is my guess.
The quality of the York exhibit affects short term sales exactly not at all. Long term sales, who knows? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ;).
As for E-bay vs TCA York:
Over the years I have bid and bought on E-bay. I much prefer to look over a product before I buy. This you can do at a train show. Too often on E-bay it becomes an out of reason bidding war, also people forget to add the shipping cost which is often excessive.
A train show gives that contact with the product, you can look it over, the bigger the show the more choice you have, TCA York is the biggest. Not only that, but all who are selling are members of YOUR club who were screened when joining. TCA is the biggest TOY Train group, it has spred worldwide, it has built a Toy Train Museum, and it built up a "KIds Club" to bring in youth. Oh yes, it provides a market for the Lionel and MTH high end locomotives, sure they always come, and belong to TCA.
I drive 350 miles each way twice a year and really enjoy the show.
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