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681 Turbine poor smoker

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Posted by ezmike on Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:26 AM

Chief, no apology necessary. There's more than one way to skin a cat, so suggestions from more people are welcomed.

I did the repair last night and I must say it smokes better. Not like the 2046 or 2026 but much better than before and I didn't change the heating element. I figured that I'd wait and see how it worked out with the other changes and go from there. If the original fails I always have a spare.

 Thanks to everyone for their suggestions!

Mike

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Friday, April 27, 2007 7:05 PM
Jim, thanks for helping out with this.  I had stopped monitoring this thread because I thought Jim A and Bob N had been advising.  Mike, I apoligize.  You are in good hands. 

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by ezmike on Friday, April 27, 2007 6:53 PM

Jim,

Thanks I kinda figured it was the magnet and Jeff did point out the difference between the two. All parts arrived today so I'll repair it tonight.

To eveyone, thanks for your suggestions and guidance. I'll let you know how it turns out. Even ordered a new element, just in case.

Mike

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:11 AM

Mike,

        To remove the smoke lever, follow these steps:

          1.  Bend up the two tabs holding the fiber piece and lift the fiber piece out.

          2.  Pull the magnet straight up out of the frame ( this is the "roller" you referred to.).

          3.  The lever can now be removed.  Be sure you order the correct lever, because the 671 and 681 use different levers.  The lever for the 681 has a 681 part #.  Hope this helps.   

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Posted by ezmike on Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:33 AM

Guys,

You're never going believe this. While working on the lever the other night like I said I would, it snapped at the bend where it starts to go up into the piston. Not a big deal since I was going to order a few things from Jeff Kane anyway, like the piston spring recommended by one of you, so now I'm waiting for the lever, the spring, a new element and a new gasket. That brings up another question, to replace the lever do I need to do anything besides remove the cover over what looks like a roller, lift that roller a little and insert the lever?

Mike

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Posted by Jumijo on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:52 AM

 lionelsoni wrote:
The locomotive will not be airborne if you turn down its voltage.  That's the whole point of the bridge-rectifier thing.

I know, but I'd rather have the right smoke unit, functioning as intended, rather that start putting bridge-rectifiers in post war locos. And as I stated, I did just that. Found the right smoke element, installed it, and it smokes well at low voltages. My second choice would be to remove a winding or two of nichrome wire from the element.

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:16 AM
The locomotive will not be airborne if you turn down its voltage.  That's the whole point of the bridge-rectifier thing.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Jumijo on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:28 AM
 msacco wrote:

Just a FYI, I just took off a turn off my 2056 heating element's nichrome wire since it never smoked that well. Boom, I've just doubled the output using regular sp pellets. Now, it still can't compare to a good modern puffer, but it puffs way more than ever before. I've always wanted to try this but have been too lazy.

    I've pretty much abandoned fluid in my postwar locos because I'm gettin tired of the smell (even JT's) and the dirty track. When I run with pellets I do get less smoke but my track is much cleaner. Liquid smoke is really messy.

Mike s.

 

I have a spare 671 smoke element at the house. I'm going to try removing a turn on that. Someone had put it in my 2025 and it never smoked unless the voltage was in the 15-18v range. At that high, the 2025 would have been airborne! It now has the correct unit and smokes well. But I am going to try this just to see what happens.

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:41 PM
As Jim said, "The higher the voltage, the stronger it will smoke."  So turn up the voltage.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by msacco on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:25 PM

Chief,

I know pellets turn to liquid, but they don't leave the kind of residue on the track that mineral oil based fluid does. No doubt. I've tested both and have seen the difference.

 

Mike s.

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:05 PM
Hate to tell you.  Pills melt and turn to liquid.  That is why there is a collection bowl and the chimney inside the smoke unit.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by msacco on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:02 PM

Just a FYI, I just took off a turn off my 2056 heating element's nichrome wire since it never smoked that well. Boom, I've just doubled the output using regular sp pellets. Now, it still can't compare to a good modern puffer, but it puffs way more than ever before. I've always wanted to try this but have been too lazy.

    I've pretty much abandoned fluid in my postwar locos because I'm gettin tired of the smell (even JT's) and the dirty track. When I run with pellets I do get less smoke but my track is much cleaner. Liquid smoke is really messy.

Mike s.

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, April 23, 2007 12:47 PM

You will still need to put about 3 drops down the stack on the heating element. Then just let it run with some heavy cars behind it. The higher the voltage, the stronger it will smoke.

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by ezmike on Monday, April 23, 2007 12:41 PM

Chief, is that the little piece at the very end, up inside the piston pointing towards the front of the loco? Do you bend it up or down?

 As for the other suggestions, I'm going to take it apart again tonight, re-fill with enough insulation to touch the bottom of the bowel (I had it filled more but the element/cap wouldn't stay on but this time I'll soak it first) and see what happens.

 I did see more smoke last night, not as much a the 2046, but more. Let's see what happens.

Mike

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:50 AM

Mike,

Make sure the new insulation is thick enough so that it's touching the heating element. Soak it with fluid and run it for a while. You might not notice a difference at first, but the longer it runs, the better it will smoke.

If that doesn't work, try a new element. You might want to consider one that goes in a 2025 instead. That one has less windings and heats the fluid at a lower voltage. That part number is 675-225 at Olsen's.

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:05 PM
 ezmike wrote:

Chief, the part that goes up into the piston has a little "tongue" that points towards the front of the loco, do you bend that up or down or do you bend the part that goes up towards the stack, if so which way (towards the front or back)?

msacco, sorry, you did say Jeff had some original elements, my bad. But I still don't know what you mean by the other statement.

Mike

I bend the flat part coming from the cam at the end.

My 681 smokes great.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by lionel2 on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:56 PM
The 2046 is a great smoker..i have one of these as well as the 671, 2020, 681, and 682...the turbines do not smoke like the hudsons...they have different more effiecient smoke units than the turbines...the 2046 i have smokes the best and always works...the turbines smoke units always needs adjustments...except the smoke bulb types..never had a problem with them..thanks
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Posted by ezmike on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:42 PM

Mike,

Sorry our postings "crossed in the mail". I think I know what you mean.

 Mike

I think.

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Posted by ezmike on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:40 PM

Chief, the part that goes up into the piston has a little "tongue" that points towards the front of the loco, do you bend that up or down or do you bend the part that goes up towards the stack, if so which way (towards the front or back)?

msacco, sorry, you did say Jeff had some original elements, my bad. But I still don't know what you mean by the other statement.

Mike

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Posted by msacco on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:04 PM

I got orginal elements from Jeff and I'm pretty sure he still has them. A few years back I installe a repro one and was never happy with the output. Some old-timer told me to unsolder the nichrome wire from the ceramic element and cut off one turn of nichrome wire and then resolder.

   Even Lionel recommends this in their original service manual for greater smoke output. Of course you will most likely shorten the life of your element if it burns hotter.

   I have never done this but have heard about it many times.

 Mike s.

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Posted by ezmike on Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:25 PM

I'm ordering some parts from Jeff either tonight or tomorrow. I'll try the 2026-44 spring. I don't know what you mean by "need a turn taken off the element". The smoke unit looks original. I'll also check with Jeff about these too. Are you suggesting to use original Lionel elements or a repro from Jeff?

 Mike

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Posted by msacco on Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:18 PM

The spring is a good suggestion as I used it in all my postwar steamers as per Lionel's original service manual instructions. they originally had said it's for quieter operation but I think it helps force more smoke out of the stack.

   If this doesn't help I would take a turn off the element or replace it. I have heard that repro elements need a turn taken off of them as well. I have some original elements from Jeff Kane at traintender so he might still have some.

 

Mike S.

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Posted by ADCX Rob on Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:38 AM
 ezmike wrote:

Okay guys, I went through the check ist last night...

...Still not as much smoke as the 2046.

I'm gonna take her apart again to check that the piston is not coming out of the cylinder at all, I don't think it is. If when I do that I want to ensure full stroke of the smoke lever, where do I bend it and in which direction? Also, the smoke unit is one with a metal top.

Thanks again for you assistance.

Try a 2026-44 spring above the piston.  Picture on this page:

Smoke Unit Parts

Rob 

Rob

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:08 AM
Hard to describe.  Works off of a cam.  Bend on the piston side of the flat "tongue" like piece.  Now, put about 5 or 6 drops of LIQUID smoke fluid in it.  Bet it smokes better.  FLUID!!!????  Yes, the pill turns to fluid.  So, speed up the process.  In fact, to start the process, I would put 12 drops to soak the pink.  Try it.  OH, make sure the pink does not block the vent.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by ezmike on Saturday, April 21, 2007 7:54 AM

Okay guys, I went through the check ist last night.

-Although I don't know what proper heating would be, I dropped a pellet in and it melted pretty quickly.

-I both hand turned the wheels and ran it in test mode and it looks like the piston comes all the way down without coming out and all the way up.

-Looks like the piston moves freely.

-I cleaned out the vent.

-I replaced the wadding with "new" pink insulation.

Still not as much smoke as the 2046.

I'm gonna take her apart again to check that the piston is not coming out of the cylinder at all, I don't think it is. If when I do that I want to ensure full stroke of the smoke lever, where do I bend it and in which direction? Also, the smoke unit is one with a metal top.

Thanks again for you assistance.

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Posted by ezmike on Friday, April 20, 2007 3:01 PM

Thanks guys, yes, there's no such thing as free lunch, there's always a catch. I appreciate the help. I'm gonna go through that check list tonight and see what happens. I'm not sure I understand what has to be done to the rod, but I'll compare it to the 2046 and see what I come up with. I'm still feeling my way around so it takes a little longer. At least I guessed right with OGR!!

 Later!

Mike

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Posted by bfskinner on Friday, April 20, 2007 12:31 PM

ezmike,

Among other things, OGR is a magazine, store and a Q & A forum. Their forum is still free; lunch is not.

http://www.ogaugerr.com/

 

bf
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Posted by ChiefEagles on Friday, April 20, 2007 12:24 PM
 ezmike wrote:

Chief, excuse my ignorance but what does OGR (O Gauge Railroading??) stand for and is it a free video clip or one to purchase?

Mike

Backshop Videos are not free.  You have to find the right volume #.  Check OGR site [O Gauge Railroading].

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by Jumijo on Friday, April 20, 2007 12:09 PM

Jim,

I recently put a new pill-type smoke element in a 2037. I also placed some fiberglass insulation under it. It smoked great. Then one day this week, I took the shell off to swap with a better shell. I put it all back together and ran the engine. No smoke. Eventually I detected the problem. When I put the new shell on, I accidently knocked the puffer lever out of it's grooves, and it wasn't pumping. Once I fixed that, it started smoking good again. If that lever isn't moving, or moving far enough, it won't puff smoke.

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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