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681 Turbine poor smoker

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681 Turbine poor smoker
Posted by ezmike on Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:16 PM
My 2046 smokes like a champ, the 681 barely smokes at all. Any suggestions?
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Posted by ADCX Rob on Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:32 PM

You will have to check all the usual suspects.

-Is the element heating up appropriately?

-Is the smoke lever exerting a full stroke on the piston?

-Is the piston moving freely up AND down? 

-Is the cylinder-to-bowl vent clear/unobstructed?

-Is there adequate wadding in the bowl? 

-What smoke medium (pellet/liquid) are you using? 

Using the 2046 as a good working example, you can probably drill down each of these items.  Both locos can be run with the cabs off to compare them side by side.

Rob

Rob

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:17 PM
Rob has asked some great questions.  If you answer "yes" to all, your engine will smoke great.  Usually a blocked hole in the "chimney" in bowl of smoke unit.  If wadding in bottom of bowl is chared, remove and put in pink fiberglass insolation [yes that used for houses, steal some from your attic].  Piston must travel to the top of the unit and yet, fall freely to the bottom without coming out of unit.  Good luck.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by ezmike on Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:13 PM

thanks guys, now that i think of it, didn't Chief post something about making post war locos smoke better not too long ago. anyway, now i have something to follow.

Mike

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Friday, April 20, 2007 8:13 AM
OGR has a backshop video on this.  Mainly it shows how to bend the "tongue" to make the piston make full travel [bet you can figure that one out].  Rest, follow the suggestion about pink insolation [Mr. Barrett hasn't learned that one yet].  The last one I worked on, I converted to new style heating element [that has plastic top].  Really smokes.  Just make sure the element is touching the pink.  If it chars over time, take it out and put in new [real cheap].   

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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, April 20, 2007 8:38 AM

I've mentioned this many times before:  You can effectively boost the voltage to the smoke generator by dropping the voltage to the motor (and the headlight if you want).  Making the motor voltage lower than the smoke-generator voltage is the same as making the smoke-generator voltage higher than the motor voltage.

You can do this with a resistor, but getting the right size is tricky.  A better way is to use rectifier diodes, not for rectifying but for their voltage drop.  A convenient way to get diodes for this purpose is to use packaged bridge rectifiers, like the Radio Shack 276-1146 4-ampere 50-volt bridge, and connect the + and - terminals together.  Then connect the other terminals (maybe marked with ~) in series with the motor and any other bridge-rectifier modules you use--but not the smoke generator.  You can use several of these in series if you need to and have room for them.  Each one will lower the motor voltage by a volt or so.  If you find that you need finer adjustment, you can use half of a rectifier module by connecting to the (wired together) + and - pins and either or both of the other two pins.

 

Bob Nelson

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Friday, April 20, 2007 8:50 AM

Bob is right.  He taught me how to do this in reverse.   I wanted to smoke a dummy diesel.  To prevent too much smoke and burning out the smoke element, we reduced the voltage with these.  I also have used it in several application to reduce voltages.  5 turne dout to be too many for the smoke unit at 18V in command.  3 was the majic number for that.

 

   

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 20, 2007 11:19 AM

Chief,

         Is pink fiberglass better than yellow?  I know you recommend the pink. 

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Posted by Jumijo on Friday, April 20, 2007 11:23 AM
 jimtrumpie wrote:

Is pink fiberglass better than yellow?  I know you recommend the pink. 

Jim, the color doesn't matter. Both work the same. 

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 20, 2007 11:28 AM

Jim,

       Thanks for your reply.

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Posted by ezmike on Friday, April 20, 2007 12:06 PM

Chief, excuse my ignorance but what does OGR (O Gauge Railroading??) stand for and is it a free video clip or one to purchase?

Mike

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Posted by Jumijo on Friday, April 20, 2007 12:09 PM

Jim,

I recently put a new pill-type smoke element in a 2037. I also placed some fiberglass insulation under it. It smoked great. Then one day this week, I took the shell off to swap with a better shell. I put it all back together and ran the engine. No smoke. Eventually I detected the problem. When I put the new shell on, I accidently knocked the puffer lever out of it's grooves, and it wasn't pumping. Once I fixed that, it started smoking good again. If that lever isn't moving, or moving far enough, it won't puff smoke.

Jim 

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Friday, April 20, 2007 12:24 PM
 ezmike wrote:

Chief, excuse my ignorance but what does OGR (O Gauge Railroading??) stand for and is it a free video clip or one to purchase?

Mike

Backshop Videos are not free.  You have to find the right volume #.  Check OGR site [O Gauge Railroading].

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by bfskinner on Friday, April 20, 2007 12:31 PM

ezmike,

Among other things, OGR is a magazine, store and a Q & A forum. Their forum is still free; lunch is not.

http://www.ogaugerr.com/

 

bf
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Posted by ezmike on Friday, April 20, 2007 3:01 PM

Thanks guys, yes, there's no such thing as free lunch, there's always a catch. I appreciate the help. I'm gonna go through that check list tonight and see what happens. I'm not sure I understand what has to be done to the rod, but I'll compare it to the 2046 and see what I come up with. I'm still feeling my way around so it takes a little longer. At least I guessed right with OGR!!

 Later!

Mike

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Posted by ezmike on Saturday, April 21, 2007 7:54 AM

Okay guys, I went through the check ist last night.

-Although I don't know what proper heating would be, I dropped a pellet in and it melted pretty quickly.

-I both hand turned the wheels and ran it in test mode and it looks like the piston comes all the way down without coming out and all the way up.

-Looks like the piston moves freely.

-I cleaned out the vent.

-I replaced the wadding with "new" pink insulation.

Still not as much smoke as the 2046.

I'm gonna take her apart again to check that the piston is not coming out of the cylinder at all, I don't think it is. If when I do that I want to ensure full stroke of the smoke lever, where do I bend it and in which direction? Also, the smoke unit is one with a metal top.

Thanks again for you assistance.

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:08 AM
Hard to describe.  Works off of a cam.  Bend on the piston side of the flat "tongue" like piece.  Now, put about 5 or 6 drops of LIQUID smoke fluid in it.  Bet it smokes better.  FLUID!!!????  Yes, the pill turns to fluid.  So, speed up the process.  In fact, to start the process, I would put 12 drops to soak the pink.  Try it.  OH, make sure the pink does not block the vent.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by ADCX Rob on Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:38 AM
 ezmike wrote:

Okay guys, I went through the check ist last night...

...Still not as much smoke as the 2046.

I'm gonna take her apart again to check that the piston is not coming out of the cylinder at all, I don't think it is. If when I do that I want to ensure full stroke of the smoke lever, where do I bend it and in which direction? Also, the smoke unit is one with a metal top.

Thanks again for you assistance.

Try a 2026-44 spring above the piston.  Picture on this page:

Smoke Unit Parts

Rob 

Rob

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Posted by msacco on Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:18 PM

The spring is a good suggestion as I used it in all my postwar steamers as per Lionel's original service manual instructions. they originally had said it's for quieter operation but I think it helps force more smoke out of the stack.

   If this doesn't help I would take a turn off the element or replace it. I have heard that repro elements need a turn taken off of them as well. I have some original elements from Jeff Kane at traintender so he might still have some.

 

Mike S.

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Posted by ezmike on Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:25 PM

I'm ordering some parts from Jeff either tonight or tomorrow. I'll try the 2026-44 spring. I don't know what you mean by "need a turn taken off the element". The smoke unit looks original. I'll also check with Jeff about these too. Are you suggesting to use original Lionel elements or a repro from Jeff?

 Mike

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Posted by msacco on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:04 PM

I got orginal elements from Jeff and I'm pretty sure he still has them. A few years back I installe a repro one and was never happy with the output. Some old-timer told me to unsolder the nichrome wire from the ceramic element and cut off one turn of nichrome wire and then resolder.

   Even Lionel recommends this in their original service manual for greater smoke output. Of course you will most likely shorten the life of your element if it burns hotter.

   I have never done this but have heard about it many times.

 Mike s.

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Posted by ezmike on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:40 PM

Chief, the part that goes up into the piston has a little "tongue" that points towards the front of the loco, do you bend that up or down or do you bend the part that goes up towards the stack, if so which way (towards the front or back)?

msacco, sorry, you did say Jeff had some original elements, my bad. But I still don't know what you mean by the other statement.

Mike

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Posted by ezmike on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:42 PM

Mike,

Sorry our postings "crossed in the mail". I think I know what you mean.

 Mike

I think.

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Posted by lionel2 on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:56 PM
The 2046 is a great smoker..i have one of these as well as the 671, 2020, 681, and 682...the turbines do not smoke like the hudsons...they have different more effiecient smoke units than the turbines...the 2046 i have smokes the best and always works...the turbines smoke units always needs adjustments...except the smoke bulb types..never had a problem with them..thanks
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Posted by ChiefEagles on Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:05 PM
 ezmike wrote:

Chief, the part that goes up into the piston has a little "tongue" that points towards the front of the loco, do you bend that up or down or do you bend the part that goes up towards the stack, if so which way (towards the front or back)?

msacco, sorry, you did say Jeff had some original elements, my bad. But I still don't know what you mean by the other statement.

Mike

I bend the flat part coming from the cam at the end.

My 681 smokes great.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:50 AM

Mike,

Make sure the new insulation is thick enough so that it's touching the heating element. Soak it with fluid and run it for a while. You might not notice a difference at first, but the longer it runs, the better it will smoke.

If that doesn't work, try a new element. You might want to consider one that goes in a 2025 instead. That one has less windings and heats the fluid at a lower voltage. That part number is 675-225 at Olsen's.

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by ezmike on Monday, April 23, 2007 12:41 PM

Chief, is that the little piece at the very end, up inside the piston pointing towards the front of the loco? Do you bend it up or down?

 As for the other suggestions, I'm going to take it apart again tonight, re-fill with enough insulation to touch the bottom of the bowel (I had it filled more but the element/cap wouldn't stay on but this time I'll soak it first) and see what happens.

 I did see more smoke last night, not as much a the 2046, but more. Let's see what happens.

Mike

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, April 23, 2007 12:47 PM

You will still need to put about 3 drops down the stack on the heating element. Then just let it run with some heavy cars behind it. The higher the voltage, the stronger it will smoke.

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by msacco on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:02 PM

Just a FYI, I just took off a turn off my 2056 heating element's nichrome wire since it never smoked that well. Boom, I've just doubled the output using regular sp pellets. Now, it still can't compare to a good modern puffer, but it puffs way more than ever before. I've always wanted to try this but have been too lazy.

    I've pretty much abandoned fluid in my postwar locos because I'm gettin tired of the smell (even JT's) and the dirty track. When I run with pellets I do get less smoke but my track is much cleaner. Liquid smoke is really messy.

Mike s.

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:05 PM
Hate to tell you.  Pills melt and turn to liquid.  That is why there is a collection bowl and the chimney inside the smoke unit.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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