Bob,
Could the situation you describe with an open joint (I understand it's not a "short") be created by grease, rust, or corrosion on the common rails?
I ask this because I am wondering if one is using older track (or track that is getting along in years), and the joint connections look tight, is there something that could cause a condition having the effect of an "open joint"?
Chris
lionelsoni wrote: I'll offer my most recent diagnosis again: "As for the Polar-Express problem, it does seem like we have eliminated everything but imperfect center-rail joints. I have wondered why they are consistently bad enough to divert the locomotive current through the cars but not bad enough to stop the train entirely. Perhaps this is the reason: The track is in a loop. Suppose that there is a completely open joint fairly close to the lockon. A locomotive traveling from the lockon and then across the nearby open joint will find itself being fed the long way around after it passes the open joint, with some voltage drop, which may be substantial if the loop is large or the joints generally of high resistance. As the following two-pickup cars cross the open joint, they will carry almost all the locomotive current around the joint, burning out the wires."On further thought, the bad joint wouldn't really need to be that close to the lockon. Even if it were halfway around, the pickups would be carrying about half of the locomotive current, which would be enough to do the damage.The problem isn't a short circuit; and fuses and circuit breakers, whatever other merits they have, won't solve the problem.
I'll offer my most recent diagnosis again: "As for the Polar-Express problem, it does seem like we have eliminated everything but imperfect center-rail joints. I have wondered why they are consistently bad enough to divert the locomotive current through the cars but not bad enough to stop the train entirely. Perhaps this is the reason: The track is in a loop. Suppose that there is a completely open joint fairly close to the lockon. A locomotive traveling from the lockon and then across the nearby open joint will find itself being fed the long way around after it passes the open joint, with some voltage drop, which may be substantial if the loop is large or the joints generally of high resistance. As the following two-pickup cars cross the open joint, they will carry almost all the locomotive current around the joint, burning out the wires."
On further thought, the bad joint wouldn't really need to be that close to the lockon. Even if it were halfway around, the pickups would be carrying about half of the locomotive current, which would be enough to do the damage.
The problem isn't a short circuit; and fuses and circuit breakers, whatever other merits they have, won't solve the problem.
Bob Nelson
What about the time period the car is spanning a good rail and a shorted rail? Wouldn't the center pickups (one on a bad section of track, and one on a good section of track) act as the path of least resistance between the two, resulting in the wires in the cab taking the brunt of the current as the pickups spanned the two tracks?
I don't think a short in the center rail could cause his problem. Almost all of the electricity would flow through the short and not the wires on his PE coaches. His wires would actually see a reduced electrical current if a short existed in the center rail.
Earl
I'll let someone else explain the why's of shorting.
A friendly reminder to add some inline fuses between the transformer and your track. It will help to protect your engines and cars from stuff like this.That track looks like it has seen better days. The insulators on the rails can deteriorate over time. So it is possible that while the center rail looked clean, the insulator wrapped around the bottom of the center rail may have deteriorated and been making contact somewhere. Even the smallest break in the insulator on the rail can cause a short - especially if the ties are no longer tight allowing the rails have some movement.
After thinking about it I think I know your problem. You mention that each oval is its own block.I have a isolated block section on my outer loop of my layout so I can park a train on the outer loop and bring a train out of the yard and bring it into the inner loop. The PE with all the cars is too long for the section and when I shut off the power to the center rail, the pickups on the observation car at the end completes the circuit to the center rail with the rear roller in the powered section and the front roller of that car in the dead section. All the other cars stay lighted and the loco powered up on that isolated section. If the loco is not in neutral but not moving or you are blowing the air whistle, the current is being drawn through the thin wire going from one roller pickup to the other of the same car to complete the circuit and letting the smoke out of the wire. A car with only one roller pickup does not complete the circuit. My suggestion would be is that you are right. The wires are too thin. I would rewire with a heavier gauge wire to the roller pickups. Maybe around 18 to 20 gauge. Now I will have to inspect the wires on my PE cars.
The fact that your voltage fluctuated wildly from 2 - 10 volts is because the center rail is badly pitted and is probably dirty as well. It does not mean that that track is the cause of your problem but it could be. The heavy pitting on the center rail may be an indication of the problem. You should put the track back in the layout, apply power to the layout, and measure the AC voltage drop accross each junction in the center rail. The voltage drop accross every junction should be zero volts.
You're real close. On toggle switches, the center terminal is usually the one that goes to the block's center rail. The terminals on either side go to the A or D of the ZW transformer. Put the insulating pins or gaps in the center rails and connect them (not the outside rails) to the center terminals of the toggle switches. Wire all the outside rails together and to the U terminal(s) of the ZW. You don't need to run separate wires to the outside rails of each block; but it is a good idea to connect together the outside rails of the loops where they come conveniently close together on the layout, to reduce voltage drop. If you've got turnouts with control rails that need insulating pins, you can get a sneaky problem at the crossovers, where you might wind up with all three rails insulated. In that case, be sure to connect the (non-control) outside rails between loops.
I would suggest arranging the switches on a simplified map of the layout or even what I do, which is to put them on a panel without even drawing a map, but laid out roughly according to where they would be if there were one. I orient the switches so that the handles move left and right, to match the locations of the controls. That's enough for me to remember what controls what.
lionelsoni wrote: If I understand your diagram, you are proposing to have 5 blocks, one of which includes the entire double crossover. This makes it very difficult to run two trains simultaneously and continuously on the two loops. I would create 6 blocks. On each loop, there would be a block including just that loop's part of the crossovers, then two other blocks each comprising about half of what's left. That way, each loop could be fully assigned to one transformer output and trains could run unattended.Here's a loop-swapping scenario: Imagine that both trains are running clockwise, with the train A powered by transformer output A on the outside loop and train B powered by transformer output B on the inside. When you want to swap loops, stop both trains completely inside the left blocks of the two loops. Switch the outside part of the crossover from A to B and switch the outside right block from A to B. Run train B across the crossover to the outside right block using transformer output B. Then switch both halves of the crossover and all the inside blocks to transformer output A. Run train A across the crossover to the inside loop. Finally switch all the outside blocks to transformer output B and continue running the trains.
If I understand your diagram, you are proposing to have 5 blocks, one of which includes the entire double crossover. This makes it very difficult to run two trains simultaneously and continuously on the two loops. I would create 6 blocks. On each loop, there would be a block including just that loop's part of the crossovers, then two other blocks each comprising about half of what's left. That way, each loop could be fully assigned to one transformer output and trains could run unattended.
Here's a loop-swapping scenario: Imagine that both trains are running clockwise, with the train A powered by transformer output A on the outside loop and train B powered by transformer output B on the inside. When you want to swap loops, stop both trains completely inside the left blocks of the two loops. Switch the outside part of the crossover from A to B and switch the outside right block from A to B. Run train B across the crossover to the outside right block using transformer output B. Then switch both halves of the crossover and all the inside blocks to transformer output A. Run train A across the crossover to the inside loop. Finally switch all the outside blocks to transformer output B and continue running the trains.
Bob,I have a layout like this. Would installing isolated tracks at the indicated markers solve what you are talking about? I take it I should install the SPDT switches on the tracks marked SPDT?
This requires an operators attention... If I want to have this automated, how do I do that?
The problem with the swapped-wire hypothesis (aside from the fact that he has assured us that it didn't happen) is that only the wires connected to the center-rail pickups seem to have burned.
The lamp-between-pickups test might not show anything if the problem is as I speculated in my last posting. The voltage drop around the loop might not be nearly enough to get any light out of an incandescent lamp, even though almost the full current would flow if the gap were bridged by the car wiring.
Likewise, testing with a lamp and probes across the gaps wouldn't show anything, since the gap must be fed from both sides or he would have noticed the train's stopping in the isolated section.
ADCX Rob wrote: Dampfmann wrote:Rob, can you explain how to check for the "voltage difference between the two center rail pick-ups"? (I have a voltage meter.)MartinThe easiest way is with a single bulb - & nothing else - wired directly between the 2 rollers and supported up where you can see it as the train travels your layout. Try a 6 or 8 volt bulb, run the entire consist as you have been. The bulb should be out/dark at all points, if/when it illuminates, the fault is between the two rollers of the car on the center rail.Rob
Dampfmann wrote:Rob, can you explain how to check for the "voltage difference between the two center rail pick-ups"? (I have a voltage meter.)Martin
The easiest way is with a single bulb - & nothing else - wired directly between the 2 rollers and supported up where you can see it as the train travels your layout. Try a 6 or 8 volt bulb, run the entire consist as you have been. The bulb should be out/dark at all points, if/when it illuminates, the fault is between the two rollers of the car on the center rail.
Rob
Yes, Brent. One is to power the entire layout from a single transformer output and control speed with rheostats. Most folks probably won't want to do that, although Daan for one has.
The other, usual, way is to arrange for each block to be switchable between the two transformer outputs. You can do this most easily with a single-pole-double-throw center-off switch for each block. The train never needs to cross between transformer outputs because the track on both sides can always be switched to the same source. Notice that, with this scheme, you can have more blocks than transformer outputs. In fact, it is convenient to subdivide the loops so that two trains can take turns using the crossover when you want to swap loops. This scheme also works with more than two transformer controls; you can use a rotary switch or multiple toggle switches.
As for the Polar-Express problem, it does seem like we have eliminated everything but imperfect center-rail joints. I have wondered why they are consistently bad enough to divert the locomotive current through the cars but not bad enough to stop the train entirely. Perhaps this is the reason: The track is in a loop. Suppose that there is a completely open joint fairly close to the lockon. A locomotive traveling from the lockon and then across the nearby open joint will find itself being fed the long way around after it passes the open joint, with some voltage drop, which may be substantial if the loop is large or the joints generally of high resistance. As the following two-pickup cars cross the open joint, they will carry almost all the locomotive current around the joint, burning out the wires.
Martin, is "Dampfmann" your real name; or does it indicate a particular interest in (perhaps German) steam locomotives?
Dampfmann,Since you now know how to post pics, can you post a pic of the layout in question and then explain where your lockons/terminal sections are located, and what wires are going to each lockon connection/terminal section wire plug? This way we can determine if there could be a wiring problem.Have you tried a simple loop, only on lockon/terminal section?Also, have you checked the bottom of each section of track to make sure the tublar center rail is insulated from the outter rails? On the FasTrack you would need to turn the pieces over and make certain nothing is crossing the outter rails with the center rail.Thing is if the track were shorting your transformer would be cutting out.I was testing my 4-4-0 Christmas General pulling my new Christmas passenger cars, I was changing routes from the outter loop to the inner loop and the train just stopped, the ZW shorted and I knew I had crossed the wires, swapped the wires and it runs across the switches no problem...
Lionelsoni - I know I know! Been meaning to ask you, is there a way to wire the layout (two loops with a double crossover - 4 switches) so that I prevent the situation you have been preaching about?
I have no issues running Polar Express cars behind a command engine (or otherwise). I'm using a 135 watt brick to power 1 loop of Fastrack. I haven't measured the track voltage. I also ran everything with a CW-80 with no issues behind various engines.
Greasy or loose fitting track pins will create an open or high resistance connection. Electricity will take the path of least resistance. In this scenario, if a car uses 2 trucks for power, the path of least resistance would be the wires connecting the trucks. When it bridges the bad track joint, most or all of the juice will flow through the wires.
If the track is the culprit, I have a feeling there may be more than 1 bad joint.
Martin,
I don't recall any folks posting problems with PE wires melting. Yours is a first for me to read about.
In-line fuses help to protect your equipment if there is a short on the layout. The increase amp draw to the track will blow the fuse and kill the power to the track. I purchased a 10 amp in-line fuse holder from Radio Shack and use regular fast blow fuses in it. Here is the link to the fuse holder: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102786&cp=&origkw=fuse+holder&kw=fuse+holder&parentPage=search
I went with a 10 amp holder because I am using an old Lionel KW transformer and it can put out 10 amps. One can use any size fuse up to 10 amps in the holder. I originally started with 7 amps, because I wanted an extra margin of protection. When working correctly my passenger trains draw about 4 amps total (3 for the engine and 1 for all the cars). In my case using a 7 amps was good because the fuse kept blowing, and that told me there was a problem somewhere on my layout. If I had been using a 10 amp fuse it would not have blown because the short was under 10 amps total draw.
Greasy pins and loose track were the cause of the short. The grease on the track pins prevented the track from making a good connection when put together. The current couldn't flow as well as it should. The loose track allowed the track to separate a little and this made a small gap. When the center pick up rollers passed over this gap they would momentarily lose a connection and then make a connection at the full 14 or so volt level. This would cause sparking and pitting of the pickup roller. Even though it was only 14 volts it was enough to do some damage to the rollers.
While I can't be sure of the cause of your situation, it is possible that the wires may be getting beat up instead of the pickup rollers.
I have found a digital volt ohm meter to be very helpful when working with the layout. You can check for voltage drops along the layout, or check amp loads. I measured equipment I have under good conditions on one or two of the long 40" sections of straight track. This told me how many amps the engine and passenger cars draw under normal conditions with track that does not have any joints or gaps at 14 volts. Anything outside of those numbers while running the layout lets me know there may be a potential problem.
There is an answer to the situation.
Martin, those are great pics - and they tell the story.
Somewhere on your layout there is a voltage potential difference between the two center rail pickups. The only melting is the direct connection between the two rollers.
Did the lights ever work? I wonder whether one of the trucks could have been wired backwards compared to the other. Can you verify that the center-rail pickups are (were) wired to the same wire nut?
Could you tack a light bulb between the two roller pickups of a car (removing the existing bulbs). When/if you hit a short, the bulb should lite. At least you can narrow down if it's the entire track, the car, or just a spot on the track.
Just an idea.
Bobby
My Lionel O-27 5 car passenger set from 2005 only draws 1 amp total. Each car pulls about .2 amps. Wire rated for .2 amps is something like 28 gauge wire if I remember correctly.
Are you using in-line fuses from the transformer to the track? If so, what amperage, and are they blowing?
Have you measured the amp draw of the cars on the track with a Volt Ohm meter?
I had a situation where greasy pins (not dirty track) combined with loose track joints was enough to cause a spike in the amps drawn on a section of the layout. The result was blown in-line fuses and pitted pickup rollers. I cleaned the pins and made sure the connection at the pin was tight and the problem cleared up.
After much trial and error, I've finally managed to figure out how to post pictures. (Although I'm probably still doing something wrong!) The pictures look a bit large, but that's the size Photobucket suggests for msg. boards. Take a look and let me know what you think.
This is a picture of the wheel pick-up assembly. There are two of these on this car, one for each truck.
This picture shows most of the car interior. The bulbs/sockets are on either end.
One half of the interior wiring.
One last thing... the older coach, "Newark," only has one pick-up. Someone asked that question a while back. Hope that info. helps.
Again, thanks to everyone for taking this problem seriously.
Martin
Martin: Whew!!! I must say I am a bit shocked by the wide range of advice you have received on here. Let me ask...you say you contacted the warranty department at Lionel and they told you to go to a repair station. Have you heard anything back from them? This whole thing with weak wires has been discussed before with other Lionel rolling stock. I was searching for a New York Central bay window smoking caboose recently and received warnings from forum members about problems with bad wiring. Here's the post by csxt30:
"I have the new NYC green Bay Window coboose & I will caution anyone on these cabooses as the wires in them, for lights & flasher & smoke unit, are so thin in diameter that all the wires in mine burnt to a crisp in only a week ! They need to be replaced with a larger diameter wire for sure if running in TMCC. I was not running mine in command at the time & they burned up. The dealer said I must have derailed it & burnt the wires up, but I didn't even have a switch on my layout at the time nor did it ever derail. It is a great looking cab though, just no lights or anything in mine now."
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/927312/ShowPost.aspx
So Lionel is becoming notorious for this problem. I guess Underwriters Laboratories needs to have a look at this stuff. Or perhaps the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Someone buying a toy train should NOT need an electronics degree and have to rewire and install components in order to provide a safe toy for his kids to play with. Be advised that if this stuff is under warranty and you rewire it, you will VOID your warranty. And if this thing causes a fire and injury and you rewired it, Lionel will NOT be responsible.
If you don't get any satisfaction from Lionel, I suggest you contact these folks:
http://www.cpsc.gov/
There is a place there to report an unsafe product. But first, I would make sure the rest of your layout is correctly wired and everything else is working properly.
Dep
Virginian Railroad
lionelsoni wrote:Last time: How many pickups does each car have, both the new ones with the problem and the old ones without the problem?
He doesn't give the identity of the older cars, but the PE cars have pickups on each truck, and they are connected in parallel with small gauge - 22-24 - maybe even smaller wire. It's been a year since I've had a roof off of one.
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