1688torpedo wrote: Hello All! otftch- Your solution to the problem here should work. The Passenger Car/Cars should be compared to other Polar Express Cars that have no problems at all & a side by side comparision should reveal what the actual problem here is & then the problem can be solved accordingly. Take Care.
They're all the same. It's not a problem w/ the car(s), it's the track.
Rob
Last three posts get two . Reasonable possibilities and methods that are worth consideration and exploration. Thanks guys!
Dep
Virginian Railroad
This is the post after the first one on page 3:
"The fact that your voltage fluctuated wildly from 2 - 10 volts is because the center rail is badly pitted and is probably dirty as well. It does not mean that that track is the cause of your problem but it could be. The heavy pitting on the center rail may be an indication of the problem. You should put the track back in the layout, apply power to the layout, and measure the AC voltage drop accross each junction in the center rail. The voltage drop accross every junction should be zero volts."
You could put a plastic pin in the track and it would still pass this test but might very well still burn out the wires. The problem seems to be an open or nearly open circuit somewhere in the loop which is allowing there to be a different voltage drop to each side of that open circuit. The wire in the car tries to equalize the voltages on the two sides of this gap by carrying a substantial part, if not all, of the current needed by the locomotive, which is more than it can handle.
Bob Nelson
This post is getting like a Subway commercial....more meat...less fat.It seems to me Lionel (and all manufacturers) design thier products with no problems in mind.The wires in the coaches would not burn out if there were no problems.Obviously there is a problem here somewhere but to expect the manufacturer to anticipate every problem that could occur is senseless.Why are there so many other PE sets without this problem ?That is not to say the cars were not assembled incorrectly at the factory but his would fall under a mistake in manufacture not in design.Our club's PE set has run for three years now with a lot of derailments and track problems and we've not burned out any wires.We even had a problem with the engine where a switch( reverse unit lockout) went bad but not all switches are to blame.Its time to take apart a car without the problem and compare it to one with a problem.Maybe the answer could be there,
Ed
While the corroded track certainly isn't a good thing, read the next post after the one you mentioned.
Deputy wrote: Oh really? The jury STILL seems to be out on whether it is a track problem OR a wiring problem. But even if it IS a track problem (and it hasn't been confirmed one way or the other), the wiring should STILL be of heavy enough gauge to PREVENT this problem. If Lionel insists on installing hair-sized wiring to make a few bucks profit, they better be ready for lawsuits when something like this happens. And the PE cars are NOT the only ones suffering this problem...as I mentioned earlier. Lionel used nice heavy gauge wiring in their postwar equipment. Why not CONTINUE that tradition instead of going on the cheap with their new stuff. If they want to maintain their good name, they will stand by their poblems when they crop up, instead of trying to blame the consumer."2. This is a TRACK issue, not a CAR issue"Again...NOBODY has definitely established that that is the case. All we have are a bunch of THEORIES by amateur electricians. Unless and until we hear FROM A SERVICE DEPARTMENT otherwise, we don't know WHAT the issue gets blamed on.
Oh really? The jury STILL seems to be out on whether it is a track problem OR a wiring problem. But even if it IS a track problem (and it hasn't been confirmed one way or the other), the wiring should STILL be of heavy enough gauge to PREVENT this problem. If Lionel insists on installing hair-sized wiring to make a few bucks profit, they better be ready for lawsuits when something like this happens. And the PE cars are NOT the only ones suffering this problem...as I mentioned earlier. Lionel used nice heavy gauge wiring in their postwar equipment. Why not CONTINUE that tradition instead of going on the cheap with their new stuff. If they want to maintain their good name, they will stand by their poblems when they crop up, instead of trying to blame the consumer.
"2. This is a TRACK issue, not a CAR issue"
Again...NOBODY has definitely established that that is the case. All we have are a bunch of THEORIES by amateur electricians. Unless and until we hear FROM A SERVICE DEPARTMENT otherwise, we don't know WHAT the issue gets blamed on.
The problem was found on the first post on page 3
lionelsoni wrote: - No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don't let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don't sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so.I enjoy trying to solve the problems that forum members come up with here. I do not enjoy flame wars.
- No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don't let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don't sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so.
I enjoy trying to solve the problems that forum members come up with here. I do not enjoy flame wars.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
Jim Duda wrote: Could it be that if you operate the PE on Fastrack (which is what I suspect the majority of PE owners do because it is supplied with the set) the PE coach wiring is adequate; but when you operate them on older trackage (less than optimal connections, track pitting, 027 curves, etc.), the wiring becomes marginal as described in the initial post?Further, as long as the cars illuminate properly, how many owners inspect the integrity of the wiring? Could it be some insulation could be degraded as posted but not noticed?
Could it be that if you operate the PE on Fastrack (which is what I suspect the majority of PE owners do because it is supplied with the set) the PE coach wiring is adequate; but when you operate them on older trackage (less than optimal connections, track pitting, 027 curves, etc.), the wiring becomes marginal as described in the initial post?
Further, as long as the cars illuminate properly, how many owners inspect the integrity of the wiring? Could it be some insulation could be degraded as posted but not noticed?
Jim, you are right on track, pardon the pun. If I rememeber correctly from my childhood days running trains, we used to put stuff on the track between the center and outer rail and watch it get red hot at full power, so there is definitely juice enough to melt the insulation off of a wire. How the juice is getting there is the mystery.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
csxt30 wrote: What pupose that serve ? So far, no one else has mentioned they had that problem with their caboose wiring. I didn't think my old posts would be used against me. You need a new agenda. You still don't get it . Write your problem without BASHING the other guy & the other brand. That's not what the forum is for. Do you always have to have your way ? You don't play well with others & I have hit the abuse button many times on your posts. Will again,too .
What pupose that serve ? So far, no one else has mentioned they had that problem with their caboose wiring. I didn't think my old posts would be used against me. You need a new agenda.
You still don't get it . Write your problem without BASHING the other guy & the other brand. That's not what the forum is for. Do you always have to have your way ? You don't play well with others & I have hit the abuse button many times on your posts. Will again,too .
I NEVER bashed the other guy OR the other brand. As I have said NUMEROUS times before, I OWN a good many Lionel products. But when something is wrong, and people KNOW it's wrong, it accomplishes NOTHING by hiding it or blaming it on the user who may NOT have done anything wrong in the first place. You seem to think that if someone points out a flaw in a product, which YOU did by the way with the post I quoted (and rightly so), that somehow it's "bashing" the poduct. It's NOT. It simply shows that there are PROBLEMS with the wiring on some Lionel products. That is a simple FACT. It is also a DANGEROUS situation if it is causing overheating of electrical connections, and Lionel needs to address it and not go into full denial.
I know you have hit the abuse button many times and many times it has been needlessly done. Forums are made to discuss things and present opinions. And in that format people are not always going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. People are going to disagree. I am not your clone or anyone else's. I have my own opinions and outlooks on things. You certainly have your right to disagree. But running to the mods every time you disagree with or don't like what I post is certainly not a manly way to win a discussion. That's what kids do when they don't get their way.
lionroar88 wrote: Kooljock1 wrote:The set comes with a loop of FasTrack right? Let him set it up and try to duplicate the problem. If the wires still melt the problem is with the cars, if not the track!JonI have the new Christmas Passenger cars, operating on FasTrack, two roller pickups per car, and I do not have this problem, and the inside of my cars are wired the same as his... so leads me to believe it is something with his track...
Kooljock1 wrote:The set comes with a loop of FasTrack right? Let him set it up and try to duplicate the problem. If the wires still melt the problem is with the cars, if not the track!Jon
My daughter's Polar Express for the third year in a row performed flawlessly with the supplied FasTrack and the CW80 Transformer. It ran this year for sometimes three hours at a time under their tree at various speeds. The only thing that is powered by the transformer is the train, no accessories.
Has anyone seen a post on any other forum documenting the melting of the wires inside the passenger cars? (The documentation on this posting has been excellent. Thanks, Dampfmann! ) I have not seen other postings, but that doesn't mean I have read every post on every forum that discusses the Polar Express. It doesn't mean that Dampfmann is the only one with this problem, but so far it seems an isolated incident, but with what I'm reading, if the problem can be duplicated on a loop of Fastrack, then it is certainly a car problem and not a track problem.
One question that Dampfmann I don't believe has described is his curve radius. Tight curves sometimes make funny things happen between wheels and center rail contacts.
Deputy wrote: csxt30 wrote: Lionroar !!Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit... so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post. It serves no other purpose Well put Lionroar !! This is just the agenda of some ! Many of us have complained about this type of stirring up the pot. Must not have any other friends with both manufacture's equipment. Most of us have both & friends with both, so when we see the others with a problem in their particular equipment, we try to help, not bash their Manufacturer. Hi John, Recognize these words?: "I have the new NYC green Bay Window coboose & I will caution anyone on these cabooses as the wires in them, for lights & flasher & smoke unit, are so thin in diameter that all the wires in mine burnt to a crisp in only a week ! They need to be replaced with a larger diameter wire for sure if running in TMCC. I was not running mine in command at the time & they burned up. The dealer said I must have derailed it & burnt the wires up, but I didn't even have a switch on my layout at the time nor did it ever derail. It is a great looking cab though, just no lights or anything in mine now."Dep
csxt30 wrote: Lionroar !!Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit... so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post. It serves no other purpose Well put Lionroar !! This is just the agenda of some ! Many of us have complained about this type of stirring up the pot. Must not have any other friends with both manufacture's equipment. Most of us have both & friends with both, so when we see the others with a problem in their particular equipment, we try to help, not bash their Manufacturer.
Lionroar !!
Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit... so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post. It serves no other purpose
Well put Lionroar !! This is just the agenda of some ! Many of us have complained about this type of stirring up the pot. Must not have any other friends with both manufacture's equipment. Most of us have both & friends with both, so when we see the others with a problem in their particular equipment, we try to help, not bash their Manufacturer.
Hi John, Recognize these words?:
"I have the new NYC green Bay Window coboose & I will caution anyone on these cabooses as the wires in them, for lights & flasher & smoke unit, are so thin in diameter that all the wires in mine burnt to a crisp in only a week ! They need to be replaced with a larger diameter wire for sure if running in TMCC. I was not running mine in command at the time & they burned up. The dealer said I must have derailed it & burnt the wires up, but I didn't even have a switch on my layout at the time nor did it ever derail. It is a great looking cab though, just no lights or anything in mine now."
"Legal issues are definitely NOT your strong suit...""1. This is NOT a Lionel production problem - I have a new set of passenger cars, with the EXACT same wiring and I do not have this problem"
"3. Lionel can not, nor would MTH, be responsible for making sure that you, the opperator have properly cleaned and maintained your track. Therefore you would be responsible for this, not Lionel, not MTH, not Williams, not Weaver, not Bachman, not John Schmoe, not Billy D. Williams, not the Attorney General, no one other than yourself."
Again, we have NOT established that it IS a track problem causing this. I understand you waving your Lionel flag because you like them a lot. But let's not dump on the consumer when it hasn't been established beyond any doubt that it is his fault. I happen to own a number of Lionel locos and rolling stock. I am NOT anti-Lionel. I AM against any company that cuts costs to the point of endangering the person buying and using their stuff. Again, this is NOT the only instance of cheap wiring frying on Lionel products.
"It drives me nuts when you sit there an type this stuff that is totally OFF BASE."
Sorry...the truth hurts sometimes.
"You seem like an intelligent person, so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post."
Totally false. As I said, I own quite a few Lionel products. I am not anti-Lionel...I AM anti-cheap junk. If they build it cheaply and it malfunctions, then they better be able to take criticism.
"It serves no other purpose than to drive the rest of us nuts and may result in our not trusting your opinion on any subject matter."
I can't help that you get upset when Lionel cuts costs to make a big profit. Complain to Lionel. Don't shoot the messenger.
"To answer your question, when I buy something that doesn't work out of the box and I have other items that are working fine, the first thing I do is put it back in the box, drive to my LHS, have them set it on the track and ensure the item is defective, if it works fine then I go home and ensure I have set everything up properly. In the 15+ years I have been in this hobby I have only had to return 1 item that has been defective. One in 15+ years, 100s of items bought and only 1 defect... that isn't very bad. I have bought a number of automobiles over that same time period and I have had to take each of them back for repairs... guess we should stop buying cars now?"
Thank you. You proved my point. If you buy something defective YOU SHOULD NOT TRY AND REPAIR IT YOURSELF!!!! That is all I was saying. If it's new and under warranty then it should be making a quick trip to the factory repair station to see what the problem is. Now please stop waving the Lionel banner and take your emotions down a notch.
Deputy wrote: Again...it should NOT be up to the consumer to do rewiring to make sure this situation doesn't happen. Obviously Lionel doesn't do ANY consumer or product testing, or these wiring problems that apperar not just in the PE cars, but in other of their rolling stock, wouldn't be going on. If it's a bad design from Lionel for cost cutting reasons, then LIONEL should be the ones to admit it and fix it. Of course, it will be a cold day in the Netherworld when that happens. Just wondering...when you guys buy a new car and have an electrical problem, do you go out with your handy test probes and meters and try fixing it yourself? I think NOT. You are PAYING for a product that is SUPPOSED to be reliable from the factory. Not something that's partially complete and needs to be re-wired to make it safe/reliable.Dep
Again...it should NOT be up to the consumer to do rewiring to make sure this situation doesn't happen. Obviously Lionel doesn't do ANY consumer or product testing, or these wiring problems that apperar not just in the PE cars, but in other of their rolling stock, wouldn't be going on. If it's a bad design from Lionel for cost cutting reasons, then LIONEL should be the ones to admit it and fix it. Of course, it will be a cold day in the Netherworld when that happens.
Just wondering...when you guys buy a new car and have an electrical problem, do you go out with your handy test probes and meters and try fixing it yourself? I think NOT. You are PAYING for a product that is SUPPOSED to be reliable from the factory. Not something that's partially complete and needs to be re-wired to make it safe/reliable.
2. This is a TRACK issue, not a CAR issue
3. Lionel can not, nor would MTH, be responsible for making sure that you, the opperator have properly cleaned and maintained your track. Therefore you would be responsible for this, not Lionel, not MTH, not Williams, not Weaver, not Bachman, not John Schmoe, not Billy D. Williams, not the Attorney General, no one other than yourself.It drives me nuts when you sit there an type this stuff that is totally OFF BASE. You seem like an intelligent person, so please stop your anti-Lionel drivel on every post. It serves no other purpose than to drive the rest of us nuts and may result in our not trusting your opinion on any subject matter.To answer your question, when I buy something that doesn't work out of the box and I have other items that are working fine, the first thing I do is put it back in the box, drive to my LHS, have them set it on the track and ensure the item is defective, if it works fine then I go home and ensure I have set everything up properly. In the 15+ years I have been in this hobby I have only had to return 1 item that has been defective. One in 15+ years, 100s of items bought and only 1 defect... that isn't very bad. I have bought a number of automobiles over that same time period and I have had to take each of them back for repairs... guess we should stop buying cars now?
lionelsoni wrote: I'll offer my most recent diagnosis again: "As for the Polar-Express problem, it does seem like we have eliminated everything but imperfect center-rail joints. I have wondered why they are consistently bad enough to divert the locomotive current through the cars but not bad enough to stop the train entirely. Perhaps this is the reason: The track is in a loop. Suppose that there is a completely open joint fairly close to the lockon. A locomotive traveling from the lockon and then across the nearby open joint will find itself being fed the long way around after it passes the open joint, with some voltage drop, which may be substantial if the loop is large or the joints generally of high resistance. As the following two-pickup cars cross the open joint, they will carry almost all the locomotive current around the joint, burning out the wires."
I'll offer my most recent diagnosis again: "As for the Polar-Express problem, it does seem like we have eliminated everything but imperfect center-rail joints. I have wondered why they are consistently bad enough to divert the locomotive current through the cars but not bad enough to stop the train entirely. Perhaps this is the reason: The track is in a loop. Suppose that there is a completely open joint fairly close to the lockon. A locomotive traveling from the lockon and then across the nearby open joint will find itself being fed the long way around after it passes the open joint, with some voltage drop, which may be substantial if the loop is large or the joints generally of high resistance. As the following two-pickup cars cross the open joint, they will carry almost all the locomotive current around the joint, burning out the wires."
That is his problem. The wires connect from one roller pickup to the other on the car. When it finds that open or high resistance in the center rail joint, all the current flows through that wire in the car from one roller to the other to complete the circuit as the car rolls through it. If he took the PE cars and removed one wire from one roller pickup of each car, he would not be burning the wire. Replace that section of track and replace the wires with a little heavier gauge wire.
Jim, as near as I can tell from his postings, he has only the double-pickup Polar Express cars and one single-pickup Newark (presumably 2434), which cannot be vulnerable to the apparent problem. So I don't think that the fact that he has had trouble only with the newer cars proves anything.
Birds wrote: So while the PE wiring may be smaller than the PW wiring, is it be possible that the PE wiring is sized correctly for the power requirements of the bulbs currently in the PE cars? Chris
So while the PE wiring may be smaller than the PW wiring, is it be possible that the PE wiring is sized correctly for the power requirements of the bulbs currently in the PE cars?
Chris
It's not just possible: that appears to be the actual case. The wiring for these bulbs is not supposed to carry the current draw for the whole darn train. The wiring isn't flawed: it appears that it's simply being overwhelmed by another fault.
In any case, were the wires too small, this frying would be a common problem. It is not.
Jim Duda wrote: From the very first post in this thread: "Before anyone tells me the problem must be with the transformers or the track, let me add one more bit of information to the puzzle-- I have not had this happen to any other, older Post-War lighted passenger cars." Doesn't that isolate the problem to the PE cars, whether mis-wired or utilizing inadequate wiring? Even though track sections might be shorted, poor track connections, etc., which might not be optimal, it only happens to his PE cars.To me, the original specific problem (insulation burning off wires on ONLY PE cars) proves it must be within the PE cars themselves...and I'll bet on the incorrect AWG of the wire used. Even though there could be a more efficient track/joint/insulator methodology used in his trackage...
From the very first post in this thread: "Before anyone tells me the problem must be with the transformers or the track, let me add one more bit of information to the puzzle-- I have not had this happen to any other, older Post-War lighted passenger cars."
Doesn't that isolate the problem to the PE cars, whether mis-wired or utilizing inadequate wiring? Even though track sections might be shorted, poor track connections, etc., which might not be optimal, it only happens to his PE cars.
To me, the original specific problem (insulation burning off wires on ONLY PE cars) proves it must be within the PE cars themselves...and I'll bet on the incorrect AWG of the wire used. Even though there could be a more efficient track/joint/insulator methodology used in his trackage...
Goof point Jim. I was wondering the same thing.
dep
Just trying to understand here because I don't own PW cars.
Would it be helpful to know what type of bulbs are in the PE car and the PW cars, and know what the differences in their power requirements are?
My new O-27 cars use Christmas tree type bulbs with a wedge base. The older PW cars that I have seen schematics of use a different bulb.
If these new christmas tree type bulbs had lower requirements than older PW bulbs (drew fewer amps), couldn't a smaller wire be used?
So while the PE wiring may be smaller than the PW wiring, is it possible that the PE wiring is sized correctly for the power requirements of the bulbs currently in the PE cars?
Yes, but I don't think that is the case here, since the center-rail-pickup wires were the ones that burned. In general, however, corrosion and dirt can bite you with any of the rails. Usually the center rail is the problem, because the two outside rails have two chances to make a good connection.
When I solder my rail joints, I remove the pins and flow some solder into the railhead. It won't go in if the inside is not clean; so I clean it until the solder is wicked in. Even if you are not going to solder the joints, putting solder into ("tinning") the railheads and then shaking it out might be a way to be sure that the pins make good contact.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month