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Going TMCC... need advice

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:58 AM

Jim, when I first set up my system and TMCC, my dealer, Davis Trains asked me if I just wanted to run TMCC equipped engines, Conventional engines or both.  Of course I answered, "Both".  

I guess if I had answered, "Just TMCC equipped",  I would have not put a TPC into the system, but would have just used that circuit breaker track connector building looking thing that Lionel sells.   Why anyone would set the TMCC system up to run just one way is beyond me, but I guess some people never cross over from TMCC to Conventional or visa versa. 

My system is supposed to be able to run MTH PS2, but the Chief hasn't brought one of his engines to my house so that I can burn it up, errrr.......run it on my layout.Smile [:)]

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

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Posted by jimhaleyscomet on Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:36 AM
 Buckeye Riveter wrote:
 jimhaleyscomet wrote:

The CW-80 will not respond to Cab-1/TMCC signals without additional equipment.   

Jim H 

Jim, I don't have a CW-80, but you have me curious as to just what additional equipment is necessary for the TMCC to work with the CW-80.   I was of the opinion that you connected the command base to the track, the track acted as an antenna, you hit the CAB-1 buttons, and somewhere a TMCC equipped piece of equipment does something. 

I run TMCC with about 100 plus feet of track, but I use two 180 w bricks and a TPC 300.  The TPC varies track voltage when I run conventional, but most of the time I'm running command at full power.

 

The TPC will do it.  I just wanted to make sure you knew that you can not just hook up a command base to a CW-80 (or any transformer other than the new ZW) and operate conventional locomotives remotely.   

 Jim H

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 21, 2006 6:47 AM
 Just a Hobo wrote:
 One hint alot of people I do service on their computer systems make a big mistake . They buy a power strip which they think is a surge protecter ! Most of the low end ones even with that little reset button won't trip uless you'd dump a bucket of water on your equipment ! Even power surges will fry delicate electronics . Ever have the lights blink on and off because someone nailed a power pole ? That can burn up alot of circuits ! Get a real surge protecter with a low kick point . Then even if you just overload the transformer or short the acessories or track by accident she'll kick and you just reset. If no one else your local radio shack guy can show you what you need . Make sure it's the newer model with a breaker not a fuse . Yes I have an older one with a fuse . Pain in butt when you forget to buy a new pack or like me can't find them !  


Hobo... you have that problem too?  I don't have kids so I can't blame them for moving my stuff... and the wife's body is repelled by the work bench so that can't be it either... so I blame ghosts!

I have my command center wired to this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7033417&type=product&productCategoryId=cat08029&id=1099395267085

I actually have one of these for every TV in the house.  And a 1500VA on the computer and the home entertainment center (two on the H.E. center).

I know APC makes a UPS that can be bridged multiple times.  I want to get a set for the Home Entertainment center and possible the computer.  Then I can block the train room into sections and use the 3 1500VA UPSs in there! :)

Oh... The house became her's the day she moved in!
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:25 PM
 One hint alot of people I do service on their computer systems make a big mistake . They buy a power strip which they think is a surge protecter ! Most of the low end ones even with that little reset button won't trip uless you'd dump a bucket of water on your equipment ! Even power surges will fry delicate electronics . Ever have the lights blink on and off because someone nailed a power pole ? That can burn up alot of circuits ! Get a real surge protecter with a low kick point . Then even if you just overload the transformer or short the acessories or track by accident she'll kick and you just reset. If no one else your local radio shack guy can show you what you need . Make sure it's the newer model with a breaker not a fuse . Yes I have an older one with a fuse . Pain in butt when you forget to buy a new pack or like me can't find them !  
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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:20 PM
 chuck wrote:

CW wil not respond to any type of command signals.  If you feed the outputs from the CW into a TPC you could control it, but you are then just running the TPC, the CW is acting like a PowerHouse brick.

The ZW needs to be programmed to allow control of the center two outputs (aka B and C), pages 9-12, please pay particular attention to page 11. 

Makes perfect sense.  I thought the CW would act just like a brick, but from Jim's comment, I thought there was something else that might be added. 

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR

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Posted by chuck on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:10 PM

CW wil not respond to any type of command signals.  If you feed the outputs from the CW into a TPC you could control it, but you are then just running the TPC, the CW is acting like a PowerHouse brick.

The ZW needs to be programmed to allow control of the center two outputs (aka B and C), pages 9-12, please pay particular attention to page 11. 

When everything else fails, play dead
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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:32 PM
 jimhaleyscomet wrote:

The CW-80 will not respond to Cab-1/TMCC signals without additional equipment.   

Jim H 

Jim, I don't have a CW-80, but you have me curious as to just what additional equipment is necessary for the TMCC to work with the CW-80.   I was of the opinion that you connected the command base to the track, the track acted as an antenna, you hit the CAB-1 buttons, and somewhere a TMCC equipped piece of equipment does something. 

I run TMCC with about 100 plus feet of track, but I use two 180 w bricks and a TPC 300.  The TPC varies track voltage when I run conventional, but most of the time I'm running command at full power.

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:03 PM
Thanks Jim.

I rewired everything tonight.  All tracks are powered off the ZW and the accessories from the CW accessory bindings... pretty nice now... now thinking I should have picked up an accessory transformer instead of the CW... oh well... maybe I can find one at the LHS tomorrow when I take the Trolley and Gang Car in for service...
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Posted by jimhaleyscomet on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:03 PM

The CW-80 will not respond to Cab-1/TMCC signals without additional equipment.   

 

Jim H 

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:36 PM
 phillyreading wrote:

You may want to put all your track lines on the ZW and use the CW for lighting and accessory use.  Or you can buy another ZW and use it for track power. From what I have read on other posts the CW is a lot differant than a ZW far as output terminals and voltages.

I calculated the size of your layout, 8ft by 5.33 ft, nice size for an apartment or small house.

Lee F.

 



Thanks Lee!  I was thinking that as well, powering the tracks from the ZW and the accessories from the CW... I am planning on buying two ZWs when I build the new layout, maybe 3 depending on the power draw... The layout takes up about 1/5 of the living room... the new layout is going to be about 26' x 19', even larger if I can sneak it in when the new house is built and I finish the basement!
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Posted by phillyreading on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:40 AM

You may want to put all your track lines on the ZW and use the CW for lighting and accessory use.  Or you can buy another ZW and use it for track power. From what I have read on other posts the CW is a lot differant than a ZW far as output terminals and voltages.

I calculated the size of your layout, 8ft by 5.33 ft, nice size for an apartment or small house.

Lee F.

 

Interested in southest Pennsylvania railroads; Reading & Northern, Reading Company, Reading Lines, Philadelphia & Reading.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:35 AM

Thanks guys I hooked everything up last night and it is really cool!

My wife's cat was really confused because the trains were running and I was sitting on the couch and not over by the command center!  He just sat behind the command center and watched the trains!

One question though... the CW-80 that powers the passenger line does not respond to TR-5.  The ZW respondes to TR-1, TR-4, but not TR 2 or TR 3.

This is how the layout is powered:
ZW - A-U = Track 1
ZW - B-U = Town lights, ice rink, Christmas tree lot
ZW - C-U = bumper line
ZW - D-U = Track 2
CW - A-U = Track 3

How do I get the C-U to responde to TR-3 and the CW to respond to TR-5?  Is this possible?

Riviter,
Everything is on a surge strip!

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:04 PM

 chuck wrote:
There are cases of test tracks near a TMCC command control layout picking up the signals which can make repairs/servicing "interesting".

And remember to use a surge protector, just like you would use on a computer.  My 2 cents [2c]

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

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Posted by chuck on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:03 PM
You can connect it to any ONE of the U posts on ANY one of the transformers OR you can run ONE wire to the out side rail connection of ONE lockon.  The  Command Base is a RADIO Transmitter.  It uses the track to propogate a radio signal that would look like a giant sausage casing enveloping the track.  The signal will jump track isolation pins and can even jump several feet of clear air if you have a good ground plane.  There are cases of test tracks near a TMCC command control layout picking up the signals which can make repairs/servicing "interesting".
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:06 AM

OK cool.  If I have multiple transformers, do I need a cable to each or just the one to the A-U posts?

<<< can be a little thick headed at times... need to refrain from so much Banged Head [banghead]ing

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Posted by jimhaleyscomet on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:24 AM

As long as it is connected to the ZW U post it is "connected" to all you transformers.  All the base unit does is put an RF signal on the common all the way around the track. 

 

Jim H 

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Posted by chuck on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:30 AM

This is an RF based signal.  One wire from the Command Base to the track common.  The signal will be broadcast over the track to everywhere else.  You don't even need to connect a command base to talk to a PowerMaster, it receives signals direct from the CAB-1.  Go to the coilcouplers site and review their interactive material:

coilcouplers.com/tmc/tmc.html 

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 6:35 AM

Thanks Jim,
If you look at the diagrams on pages 20 - 21 in The Complete Guide to Command Control none of them show wires going to the multiple power sources.  Is this correct?  This seems to counter what they say on page 5 Next, connect a wire between the Command Base binding post and the common (U) terminal on all PowerMasters or ZW transformers powering your track.

I knew this wouldn't be easy, and last time I checked my reading comprehension skills were above average, so I hope it is just 'non-familiarity' with this!

The TMCC Upgrades are going to be made after the holidays... I have to find out what I get from Mrs. Clause first! Big Smile [:D]

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Posted by jimhaleyscomet on Monday, December 18, 2006 10:33 PM

I only have one loop, but I think all the U's are already connected together on the ZW.  So you should only need one U wire.

 

Jim H 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 18, 2006 10:20 PM

Riveter,
Sounds neat!

Well the TMCC Cab-1 and Command Base arrived in the mail today, along with the Christmas Tree Lot.  I've read the manual 3 times, so I think I've got it... one question though...

I have the new ZW.  The manual says to attach a cable from the U terminal on the Command Base to the U terminal on the ZW... since I have Track 1 assigned to A-U, accessories to B-U, Trolley Line to C-U, and Track 2 assigned to D-U and the Passenger loop powered by the CW-80, do I need a 4 cables from the Command Base to A-U, C-U, D-U, and CW-80?  or just one?  I would read it to mean that you need 1 cable for each terminal combination you intend to control via TMCC.  Is that correct?  If not powering the line with TMCC you do not connect the Command Base to the U terminal?

The wiring diagrams do not show this... Confused [%-)]Sign - Dots [#dots]Banged Head [banghead] 


Thanks...

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Posted by A&Y Ry on Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:39 PM

Although I had early TMCC and TPCs and had converted 12 Southern and N&W Proto 1.0 engines to TM/RS( when Mike originally said Proto 1.0 would not be convertible to Proto 2.0).  I also bought the early version of DCS and easily rearranged my bus wiring-to-terminal strips on the three power district layout, to a "hub and spoke" arrangement to better accomodate DCS.  I had originally paired my hot and common conductors when extending wiring from TPC-to-hub-to-rails and had no major DCS signal problems early on. "Engineer Ernie's" TM-to-DCS interface fix worked for running TMCC engines.

But I found DCS troublesome and operationally complicated(for simple-minded me) and sold the system to Dr. Grien down the street (ultimately a mistake because it took me a month and a case of "train back" and "train neck" soreness  to straighten out his rats nest wiring and get it working). He is not intimidated by computers and software fixes but is challenged with only one wire in his hand. However, far as I know he is operating okay.

I only have one Proto 2.0 engine now (Ft. Wayne Fund-raiser Berkshire) but would buy others if issued in my limited roadnames---Southern and N&W.

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:43 PM
 lionroar88 wrote:

.......................Although I will put a lot of time and effort into building a nice command center, I don't want to have to be behind the transformers all the time. 

One of the advantageous of command control is that all the transformers, TPC, command base, etc. can be completely out of sight.   When you walk into my train room, you only see two CAB-1 waiting to run the layout.  I reach under the table and turn on the master power switch and as they say, we are in business.

I'll watch on TV so I don't have to listen to that lion roar. Smile [:)]

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:37 PM

Riveter,
Thanks for the reply.  Audio was one concern, but more than anything I want the freedom that TMCC offers, being able to walk around and witness the layout and still have control over the trains means alot to me.  Although I will put a lot of time and effort into building a nice command center, I don't want to have to be behind the transformers all the time.

Therefore, I'm not looking for 100% clear audio, if I wanted that I would install a 7.1 surround sound system in the train room and just play CD recorded train sounds... Big Smile [:D] I could get some really good sounds too because the Western Maryland Railroad runs right through my backyard!  Talk about a train lover's dream!

Anyway, I have 4 engines that I am considering doing this to:

Lionel Christmas Berkshire, Lionel Christmas Dockside Switcher, Lionel Christmas General, and a postwar 2020 that has taken a beating after falling 4 feet to a concrete floor (not my doing!).  The 2020 I want to rebuild from the frame up and repaint as a 1885 PSU RR Turbine.  I know it won't be worth squat after doing that, but it isn't worth squat now due to the heavy gouges in the cab and prow from the crash.  It runs very well, it just looks rough.

BTW - any plans to come to Happy Valley for the game next year?

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:24 PM

 lionroar88 wrote:
Anyone have any recommendations on upgrading engines to TMCC?

I have a quote from Train America Studios in OH, anyone have any experience with them?  Do they have quality products?

Anyone use someone else?

Thanks,
Brent

Brent, I have two engines that contain TAS upgrades.  The first engine upgrade was done by TAS.  I did the second engine's upgrade.   Both upgrades have worked flawlessly for over five years.  From discussions with the Chief and others on the forum who have used Digital Dynamics for their upgrades,  it seems that the DD instructions were easier to follow.  The TAS upgrade did not include color coded wires although the instructions indicated such.  

Remember if an engine was not made with a sound chamber, the sound may not be as clear as you desire using an upgrade kit.

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Thursday, December 14, 2006 7:22 PM

"I just joined the DCS world - and it is truly awesome - I love it! But these two products make DCS primary advantage - high quality cruise control - available to TMCC users for many of the trains out there." [and this poor software will not quote suddenly] 

 

I take exception to this comment.  I started with DCS and then went to TMCC.  DCS is slow reacting to commands.  The handheld has to clear one command to get another.   You do NOT get all the TMCC features with DCS.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by dwiemer on Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:32 PM

I would suggest looking at the last OGR for 2006.  They had a  few pages on tips for the different command set ups.  One thing, is that if you are having a few levels, run a ground wire between them.  I hope CTT would do a thorough article on these tips and tricks.

Dennis

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:30 AM

 lionroar88 wrote:
Anyone have any recommendations on upgrading engines to TMCC?

I have a quote from Train America Studios in OH, anyone have any experience with them?  Do they have quality products?

Anyone use someone else?

Thanks,
Brent

The TMCC upgrade companies are really what makes having TMCC worthwhile. They all seem to do great job and are investing heavily in the technology, bringing out, what seem to me, even better products than Lionel. TMCC can be applied to pretty much any AC powerd train, no matter who made it or how old it is.

My nomination for the two products of the year are TAS AC EOB and the Electric Railroad "Cruise Commander."

I just joined the DCS world - and it is truly awesome - I love it! But these two products make DCS primary advantage - high quality cruise control - available to TMCC users for many of the trains out there.

Too often, we consentrate on what's wrong with the hobby - high prices - lawsuits - etc. But the competition of DCS and TMCC in the marketplace has done wonderful things for us!

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 14, 2006 7:06 AM
Anyone have any recommendations on upgrading engines to TMCC?

I have a quote from Train America Studios in OH, anyone have any experience with them?  Do they have quality products?

Anyone use someone else?

Thanks,
Brent
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 11, 2006 10:56 AM

Update - 12/11/2006

Just ordered the Command Set from Grand Central.  All the other sites that had it for under $110.00 were all sold out! Sad [:(]  I figured I better snag one before they are not available again... not bad $120.00 delivered.

CW-80 will be here in a few days to power the passenger loop under the tree... this is going to be a fun christmas!!!

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