Going TMCC... need advice

[Anonymous]

Hello all from a forum newbie!

I just finished reading a few threads and there seems to be a great wealth of knowledge on here!

What I am looking for is some advice on what I need to go TMCC, or if I should wait for TMCCII?

I have a new ZW with the dual 180 powerhouses.  A 96 x 64 layout running two circuits with a crossover (trains don't like to run on the same loop forever), and a reversing trolley line.  I run only Lionel stuff (don't ask), I have the Christmas Berkshire, Christmas Switcher (0-4-0) and the Christmas General.  None are TMCC, but the Berk and a caboose have the Railsounds (caboose is TMCC from 1998).  I am building a large, border line huge, layout in the coming years (30ft x 19.3 feet) and that will be predominantly TMCC controlled engines, so figured the smaller layout would be a good 'learning step'.

I know I need the Command Control Base and Cab-1 remote, inorder to run conventional locos, do I need anything else?

Thanks in advance,
Brent

[Birds]

Welcome Brent! 

Is that 96 x 64 layout measurement in feet or inches?

 

Chris 

[92hatchattack]

In order to run conventional locos with the cab-1 your going to need a powermaster.

 

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogUID=A1D98741-B8B4-F5A5-9867DF780CEE5190&PageID=942 

[MartyE]

If you have the new ZW, a Command Base and Cab 1... you have everything you need to run in Command and Conventional.  Nothing more should be needed.  The new ZW will take the place of the powermasters.

[mpzpw3]

   To repeat what MartyE stated. If you have a modern zw, you have the equivalent of 4 powermasters inside. All you need is a command base and cab-1. These sets are usually discounted to about $115.00 from a lot of the advertiser's in the magazine's.

   I purchased this set up about 6 months ago, and absolutely love it. I usually only run conventional, and it just works great! It's nice to be able to walk around with a remote, and control basiclly the whole layout with it!

[Roger Bielen]

I'm in agreement with Marty and mpzpw3 but in response to your question about TMCC vs. TMCCII I think its a matter of how important are the misc. features, in addition to engine control, to you.  About the only time I use the "talk" features is when a new guest is present.  For me the remote control, bell, whistle and couplers are the important features.  Also, as soon as TMCCII hits the market the TMCC price will drop.

[92hatchattack]

Hmm..   did not know that bout the new ZW's....   maybe i need to pick one of these up some time soon.

[ChiefEagles]

Here is what I have been informed.  TMCC II will run the old TMCC I enginrs but TMCC II engines will not run on TMCC I.  TMCC II engines operate on a different frequency than transmitted by TMCC I Command Base.   Might want to check this out.

[MartyE]

OK...My turn of what I have heard...  TMCC1 will run TMCC2 engines but only with the basic TMCC functions that are available with the current engines.  TMCC2 will run TMCC engines but you still need a Command Base Type 1.  Seems to me that there is some descrepancy... so I consulted the Coil Coupler Website and found this list...

 August 3, 2006

CAB Type	COMMAND Base Type	TMCC 2 Eng	TMCC 1 Eng	TMCC 1 TPC	TMCC 1 PowerMaster	TMCC 1 Z
2	2	Yes	4 # address Naming Momentum En brake Train-brake Velocity Throttle	Yes	Must add LEGACY Powermaster Bridge	Yes
1	1	Yes limited 32/200 No real-time horn	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
2	1	No	No	No	No	No
1	1 & 2	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes

 

[chuck]

According the compatibility chart on the CoilCoupler site and the published literature, a TMCC2 loco can be controlled by a CAB-1 and an original Command Base BUT you can not access the more advanced features of a TMCC2 loco.  The CAB-2 can not "talk" to an original Command Base, period.

 I "think" the chart means that the CAB-1's can still be used with the new Command base.  I believe that a CAB-2 and new command base can run any of the old devices with the exception of the PowerMasters that require a "powerbridge" to mimic the signals the CAB-1 transmiter provided directly under the old system.

[ChiefEagles]

Completely opposite from what I was told Saturday.  I thought the same as you guys.  I was told no.  I had not heard that TMCC II was a differnet frequency until Saturday.  We'll see.

[chuck]

I suspect that the frequency shift is between the new hand held and the new command base.  Note, new hand held does not use/need a CB style telescoping antenna.  A dual receiver would be possible in the new command base so it can still receive signals from the older CAB-1.  The "power bridge" requirement for PowerMasters is also an indicator that the new hand held operates at different frequency than the older CAB-1

[MartyE]

The new HH appearantly has 2 way communication with the Command Base as well.  It was stated also on the CC site that all remotes will recieve actual spped settings of other locos so all remotes are "In Sync".  Once a TMCC engine is loaded in one remote via the memory modules it's information is  available to all.

[Joe Hohmann]

I just went TMCC a month ago with some TMCC engines. The only thing I'll add is to make SURE the command base is properly grounded at its plug. I use a 3-prong adaptor with a wire to a radiator pipe. I origionally thought that this "instruction book info" was just one of the many "safety tips"...not so...it's for operation. Joe

[ChiefEagles]

Thanks guys.  I will pass this to my source about the frequency thing.  He was really set on the idea that the difference would screw up old TMCC engine commands.  He was telling me he got most of his infor from York.  I thought as you did.  Makes since that the old TMCC Command Unit and the new one would be on different frequencies as they would "cross talk" if you had both close to each other.  My understanding was you could take away the old commmand unit and this TMCCII command unit would replace all.  He was trying to tell me no.  He retired from the electronics field so I quit discussing it as I figured he knew.

[jimhaleyscomet]

   To repeat what MartyE stated. If you have a modern zw, you have the equivalent of 4 powermasters inside. All you need is a command base and cab-1. These sets are usually discounted to about $115.00 from a lot of the advertiser's in the magazine's.

   I purchased this set up about 6 months ago, and absolutely love it. I usually only run conventional, and it just works great! It's nice to be able to walk around with a remote, and control basiclly the whole layout with it!

 

Ditto! I love the conventional operation of my new ZW/Cab 1 combination!

 

Jim H 

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately inches...

My wife complains enough about it now, just think if I had a 96' by 64' layout!  I can dream, but I would also likely be divorced!!!

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys you have all been most helpful!  The information is definitely useful.

I think I'm going to go TMCC for now, and then when the new layout is being built I'll go TMCCII (should be two or three releases out before I start construction).

I could also keep the TMCC gear for the tree layout as well...

BTW - HobbyStation has the Command Set for $105.00

http://www.hobbystation.net/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=407&strVarSel=&strCompare

I'll be posting some pics of the tree layout when I have it in place and decorated...

[Anonymous]

Update - 12/11/2006

Just ordered the Command Set from Grand Central.  All the other sites that had it for under $110.00 were all sold out!   I figured I better snag one before they are not available again... not bad $120.00 delivered.

CW-80 will be here in a few days to power the passenger loop under the tree... this is going to be a fun christmas!!!

[Anonymous]

Anyone have any recommendations on upgrading engines to TMCC?

I have a quote from Train America Studios in OH, anyone have any experience with them?  Do they have quality products?

Anyone use someone else?

Thanks,
Brent

[Anonymous]

Anyone have any recommendations on upgrading engines to TMCC?

I have a quote from Train America Studios in OH, anyone have any experience with them?  Do they have quality products?

Anyone use someone else?

Thanks,
Brent

The TMCC upgrade companies are really what makes having TMCC worthwhile. They all seem to do great job and are investing heavily in the technology, bringing out, what seem to me, even better products than Lionel. TMCC can be applied to pretty much any AC powerd train, no matter who made it or how old it is.

My nomination for the two products of the year are TAS AC EOB and the Electric Railroad "Cruise Commander."

I just joined the DCS world - and it is truly awesome - I love it! But these two products make DCS primary advantage - high quality cruise control - available to TMCC users for many of the trains out there.

Too often, we consentrate on what's wrong with the hobby - high prices - lawsuits - etc. But the competition of DCS and TMCC in the marketplace has done wonderful things for us!

[dwiemer]

I would suggest looking at the last OGR for 2006.  They had a  few pages on tips for the different command set ups.  One thing, is that if you are having a few levels, run a ground wire between them.  I hope CTT would do a thorough article on these tips and tricks.

Dennis

[ChiefEagles]

"I just joined the DCS world - and it is truly awesome - I love it! But these two products make DCS primary advantage - high quality cruise control - available to TMCC users for many of the trains out there." [and this poor software will not quote suddenly] 

 

I take exception to this comment.  I started with DCS and then went to TMCC.  DCS is slow reacting to commands.  The handheld has to clear one command to get another.   You do NOT get all the TMCC features with DCS.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Anyone have any recommendations on upgrading engines to TMCC?

I have a quote from Train America Studios in OH, anyone have any experience with them?  Do they have quality products?

Anyone use someone else?

Thanks,
Brent

Brent, I have two engines that contain TAS upgrades.  The first engine upgrade was done by TAS.  I did the second engine's upgrade.   Both upgrades have worked flawlessly for over five years.  From discussions with the Chief and others on the forum who have used Digital Dynamics for their upgrades,  it seems that the DD instructions were easier to follow.  The TAS upgrade did not include color coded wires although the instructions indicated such.  

Remember if an engine was not made with a sound chamber, the sound may not be as clear as you desire using an upgrade kit.

[Anonymous]

Riveter,
Thanks for the reply.  Audio was one concern, but more than anything I want the freedom that TMCC offers, being able to walk around and witness the layout and still have control over the trains means alot to me.  Although I will put a lot of time and effort into building a nice command center, I don't want to have to be behind the transformers all the time.

Therefore, I'm not looking for 100% clear audio, if I wanted that I would install a 7.1 surround sound system in the train room and just play CD recorded train sounds...  I could get some really good sounds too because the Western Maryland Railroad runs right through my backyard!  Talk about a train lover's dream!

Anyway, I have 4 engines that I am considering doing this to:

Lionel Christmas Berkshire, Lionel Christmas Dockside Switcher, Lionel Christmas General, and a postwar 2020 that has taken a beating after falling 4 feet to a concrete floor (not my doing!).  The 2020 I want to rebuild from the frame up and repaint as a 1885 PSU RR Turbine.  I know it won't be worth squat after doing that, but it isn't worth squat now due to the heavy gouges in the cab and prow from the crash.  It runs very well, it just looks rough.

BTW - any plans to come to Happy Valley for the game next year?

[Buckeye Riveter]

.......................Although I will put a lot of time and effort into building a nice command center, I don't want to have to be behind the transformers all the time. 

One of the advantageous of command control is that all the transformers, TPC, command base, etc. can be completely out of sight.   When you walk into my train room, you only see two CAB-1 waiting to run the layout.  I reach under the table and turn on the master power switch and as they say, we are in business.

I'll watch on TV so I don't have to listen to that lion roar.

[A&Y Ry]

Although I had early TMCC and TPCs and had converted 12 Southern and N&W Proto 1.0 engines to TM/RS( when Mike originally said Proto 1.0 would not be convertible to Proto 2.0).  I also bought the early version of DCS and easily rearranged my bus wiring-to-terminal strips on the three power district layout, to a "hub and spoke" arrangement to better accomodate DCS.  I had originally paired my hot and common conductors when extending wiring from TPC-to-hub-to-rails and had no major DCS signal problems early on. "Engineer Ernie's" TM-to-DCS interface fix worked for running TMCC engines.

But I found DCS troublesome and operationally complicated(for simple-minded me) and sold the system to Dr. Grien down the street (ultimately a mistake because it took me a month and a case of "train back" and "train neck" soreness  to straighten out his rats nest wiring and get it working). He is not intimidated by computers and software fixes but is challenged with only one wire in his hand. However, far as I know he is operating okay.

I only have one Proto 2.0 engine now (Ft. Wayne Fund-raiser Berkshire) but would buy others if issued in my limited roadnames---Southern and N&W.

[Anonymous]

Riveter,
Sounds neat!

Well the TMCC Cab-1 and Command Base arrived in the mail today, along with the Christmas Tree Lot.  I've read the manual 3 times, so I think I've got it... one question though...

I have the new ZW.  The manual says to attach a cable from the U terminal on the Command Base to the U terminal on the ZW... since I have Track 1 assigned to A-U, accessories to B-U, Trolley Line to C-U, and Track 2 assigned to D-U and the Passenger loop powered by the CW-80, do I need a 4 cables from the Command Base to A-U, C-U, D-U, and CW-80?  or just one?  I would read it to mean that you need 1 cable for each terminal combination you intend to control via TMCC.  Is that correct?  If not powering the line with TMCC you do not connect the Command Base to the U terminal?

The wiring diagrams do not show this...  

Thanks...

[jimhaleyscomet]

I only have one loop, but I think all the U's are already connected together on the ZW.  So you should only need one U wire.

 

Jim H 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Jim,
If you look at the diagrams on pages 20 - 21 in The Complete Guide to Command Control none of them show wires going to the multiple power sources.  Is this correct?  This seems to counter what they say on page 5 Next, connect a wire between the Command Base binding post and the common (U) terminal on all PowerMasters or ZW transformers powering your track.

I knew this wouldn't be easy, and last time I checked my reading comprehension skills were above average, so I hope it is just 'non-familiarity' with this!

The TMCC Upgrades are going to be made after the holidays... I have to find out what I get from Mrs. Clause first!