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1950 Lionel Union Pacific O scale

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:58 AM

Thanks so much for all your help.  I think that is all the questions i have right now, can you believe it?  Keep an eye out though, I'm sure i will have more later.

 

Thanks

 

John Gregory

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:44 AM

Here is the next Ebay auction, ending in about 10 hours:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Transformer-Black-Control-Handle-1032-1033-1232-RW_W0QQitemZ270053510307QQihZ017QQcategoryZ4146QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

He wants $2.59.  There are a couple of other auctions.  Search (without quotes) "lionel 1033".

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:51 AM

ok, thanks.

I'm not sure if you saw my first post today or not about my transformer, it is a 1033 multicontrol.  Do you know where i can get knobs for it, the black one is missing?

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:47 AM

I clean the inside of the railhead (unless the track is brand new) and flow some solder into it, leaving it flush with the end of the rail.  I fasten the track down to the table with the rails butted together.  I reheat the rails and flow additional solder into the railhead as needed.  I make a little puddle on the flanges on each side and as far up the web as it will flow.  (The taper of the wheel flanges will let them clear a surprisingly large lump.)  If the rails are not perfectly aligned, I push the higher rail down with a screwdriver or other tool while the solder is molten.  I have a loose truck that I test the result with for smoothness.

I use the longest straight sections that I can get, to reduce the number of joints.  I prefer the K-Line 36-inch pieces.  Lionel also makes a slightly shorter piece.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:38 AM
Do you flip the track over and solder it inside the track or do you solder it on the outside?  If you solder it on the outside do you have to worry about it causing the train to derail?
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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:25 AM

I remove the pins and solder my track, which is O27-profile tubular.  I started doing it when I discovered how difficult it often was to get switches and track sections off the layout without ripping up long stretches.  I realized later that the soldered joints were much more reliable connections than the pins.  You can build a moderate-sized layout without any feeder wires if you solder.

Some folks leave the pins in and solder just for the electrical benefit.  Some, like me, solder the rails directly to each other, flowing solder into the railhead as well as lapping it over the flanges.  Some solder short pieces of bare wire from rail to rail.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:43 AM

Bob,

 

   What are you thoughts on soldering the tracks together?

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Posted by Jumijo on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:38 AM
Thanks for the advice, Bob. I'll do as you say.


Jim

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:26 AM
If the e-units work, I would gratefully leave them entirely alone.  I use oil on shafts.  Many motors have wicks on the brushplates that are obviously meant for oil.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Jumijo on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:19 AM
 lionelsoni wrote:

If the motor runs every other time you turn the voltage up, the e-unit is doing its job and the buzzing is harmless.  Working on an e-unit is tricky; so, if it is working, I would leave it alone, buzzing or not.



Bob, I am getting ready to open up a few post war locos for cleaning and lubing. Before I do, I'd like to get your response to a few questions, if you don't mind.

I don't want to mess with the e-units, which seem to work fine. But I have thought about spraying them with tuner cleaner. Will the tuner cleaner harm the e-unit?

Armature shaft lubrication is some thing I've heard differing opinions on. Some recommend a drop of oil, while others recommend grease. Which do you recommend? Both sides should be lubricated, correct?

Jim

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 6:57 AM

Ok i  finally remembered the model of my transformer.  It is a 1033 multicontrol 95 watt.  I also have a smaller one that is a Loius Marks and Co. 50 watt Cat #1209.  I don't use the Louis Marks because it hums and vibrates.

The problem with the whistle on my trais is that it is missing.  It is supposed to be clear in the back isn't it?

I oiled all the cars lastnight and i must say the engine did run a lot better with them.  Another problem may be that i just have a small test track set up and the train with all the cars is over half the size of the track, so at all times the train is in a turn.

The problem with the buzzing in the e unit was my fault, it was just in neutral.  Once i oiled everything up the train will start and stop everytime without any help.  The E Unit does buzz quite a bit even when the train is moving but i am guessing that is normal.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 3:12 PM

The fact that the train stopped when you tried to blow the horn is a hint that the trouble may be in the transformer; but try this first.  Look at the picture of the relay:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc2023b.pdf

At the bottom edge, facing you is the relay contact.  Push it up with your finger to close it.  With a good D cell in the locomotive, the horn should blow.

 

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 1:31 PM

I'm going to try oiling the wheels for the rest of the cars to see if that helps.  The more i think about it i think that is the problem.  If the engine is running around by itself it goes almost fast enough to derail itself in the turns.  I would think if it goes that fast it should have the power to pull the cars if they are well oiled.

 

In the instruction book for the engine it sadi you could test the whistle by turning the car over, i tried that and it didn't work.  Now, when i was running it around the track and tried to blow the whistle the train stopped.  I'm going to mess with the relay a little more before i replace it.

 

How much grease should i put in the truck?  Should i pack it full or just put a little on the gear?

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 1:23 PM

If the motor runs every other time you turn the voltage up, the e-unit is doing its job and the buzzing is harmless.  Working on an e-unit is tricky; so, if it is working, I would leave it alone, buzzing or not.

The horn operates through a relay contact.  With the D cell in place, push the contact closed.  If it doesn't blow, the problem is with the horn.  If it does, the problem is probably with the relay or with the transformer.  Let us know what happens.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 1:16 PM

Well, he said it looked like an 1144, I think from comparing it to the Olsen's pictures.  But the 1044 and the 1144 look pretty much the same; and, although the Lionel text says that the 1144 is a 75-watt transformer, the nameplate in the 1144 drawings clearly says 90.  I don't have any of either to check the nameplates.

In any case, as far as transformer size is concerned, it doesn't matter how big the layout is but rather how many and what kind of trains you are running.  If you stick to the one 2023 and can run it on a small layout, you can run it on a large one with the same transformer.  You do have to avoid voltage drops in the track on a large layout, either by having very good connections between track sections or by running heavy wire to the far ends of the layout.  But more transformer power capability will not help.

Accessories can be powered from the transformer terminals other than U.  There are several fixed voltages available according to which terminals you use; and they should be marked on the transformer.  Accessories like signals and crossing gates that you want to activate from the track when the train goes by are a little more complicated to hook up but can be powered from the same transformer.  Of course, the more accessories you connect to the transformer, the less power there is left over to run the train; but your transformer can probably handle a couple in addition to the 2023.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 1:15 PM

The problem with the transformer is my memory and remembering to write down what it is.  I know it says 90 watts on the face plate but that is all i remember.  I will try to remember to write it down so i can tell you guys once and for all what i am working with.

The problem with the sparking went away when i cleaned the track off.

I'm not sure enough about what gear the train was in to say that it was for sure straining.  I just figured if it was buzzing it was trying to move.  I'm very paranoid that i am going to burn up the armiture if it is straining so i have not let it run for very long at a time.  Are you thinking maybe there is something not operating correctly with the E-Unit?  Is there somethign there i can clean or lube up to make it work smoother?

I have a question about the whistle.  I put a D cell in the engine but the whistle doesn't work.  Is this a servicable part or does it most likely need replaced?

 

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 12:53 PM

jgregor and lionelsoni,

OK guys, have your fun -- as long as it is fun. Troubleshooting and repairing it would be fun for me, even at my advanced age, because I have some experience, but I remain confused as to what you are working with. For example, is the transformer an 1144 or not? If it is, the way I read "the book" it would be a 75 watt (nominal) device putting out about 70% of that, say 52.5 watts maximum. If it's a 1033 or one of that ilk, it is rated at 90 watts for about 63 watts output, both with a maximum no-load voltage of about 16 from the U-A taps. (Never mind all that root-mean-square smoke, Bob: apples to apples should do just fine here.Big Smile [:D]) In any event,  unless the faceplate is missing or terribly worn/tarnished, it ought to be a simple matter to read the transformer type number and get that much settled at least.

And what about all the sparking that was mentioned early on? Has all the cleaning and lubricating  eliminated or at least reduced it?

Also, there is quite a difference between the normal case of a locomotive sitting at neutral, with its E-unit buzzing cheerfully, and the troublesome case  where the pawl hasn't advanced the drum quite all the way and the engine is actually "in gear," so to speak, and is "straining" (jgregor's term) trying  to move. I have seen both.

I have three such locomotives, and both a "90 watt" and a "75 watt" (both nominal) transformer. I would be willing to run some benchmark performance tests, but only if requested. What I would prefer to do, however, is to just sit here and watch you guys work your way through this own your own. I learn more by listening than by writing. I hope to follow this thread with interest. Do carry on.

By the way: I would suspect the working load (number, weight and rolling characteristics), transformer power or lack of,  E-unit, and maybe a subtle short somewhere -- perhaps in the track. Lots of other possibilities too, but the easiest diagnostic procedure might be to do some logical substitutions....

Second by the way: jgregor, are you really sitting on the Prime Meridian as it suggests in your personal information? If so, are you using 50 hertz house current by any chance?

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 12:10 PM
I agree with the part about taking it to someone and letting them have all the fun.  I am going to try oiling the cars to see if that makes a difference.  I did think of one more questions though.  If the track layout i do is a bigger layout at some point will i need to add more power to the track?  If so how do you go about doing this?  The transformer i have is a 90 watt multicontrol.  I'm not sure if this is ever an issue, just wondering.  Also, right now i don't have any lamps or lights set up, when I start getting all this together, do i wire it directly from my transformer or to the track.  If i am thinking correctly, if i wire it to the track it will only work if the throttle is turned up.
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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 11:41 AM
I agree with George that adding a motor is premature.  I described the operation only because you asked.  On the other hand, it seems like you're enjoying the process and making progress or you wouldn't still be at it.  So I propose that taking it somewhere and letting someone else have all the fun is also a little premature!...;-)

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 11:15 AM

jgregor,

You are in good hands with Bob Nelson (lionelsoni). That said, I respectfully suggest that is is premature to consider adding a second motor. I can't tell from here where your problem is. It could be lack of lube on the ball-bearing races, the wheels on the other cars of your consist, the number and weight of the consist, the size (power) of the transformer, the number of lamps in the circuit --if any_ and very possibly dirty drum and/or weak fingers on the E-unit, etc, etc. There are just too many variables in a 57 year old trainset.

My advice is to take (or send if that's the only way) both the locomotive and the transformer to an authorized Lionel service station for a complete dignosis and possible rehab.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 10:49 AM
I have not oiled them yet.  they spin pretty freely but when you have that many cars i can see where it would slow things down.  Well i think that is all the questions i have for now.  Thanks again for all the info!!
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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 10:46 AM

For the locomotive by itself, no.  It should move at a pretty low voltage.  But what you describe might be reasonable for a heavy train that is close to the locomotive's capability.  Have you tried oiling the wheels of the cars?  Just a drop where the wheel turns on the axle is all that is needed.  Spin the wheel to verify that you got the oil where it belongs.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 10:39 AM

thanks for the info for making a power truck, i may look into that.  When you are first starting the train should you have to tunr the speed all the way up to get it to move?  In order to get mine to start i have to power it all the way up, after it gets going i can power it down to a slower speed.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 10:33 AM

The noise is unfortunately normal for the e-unit.  Some are noisier than others.  You shouldn't need to turn it all the way up just to step through neutral.

To do the power-truck transplant, first you need a donor, that is, a truck from a powered unit of the same general type as your 2023.  You can see a list of Alcos here:  http://www.postwarlionel.com/diesel.html .  But watch out--most of these (generally those in the 200's) have an inferior later type of motor; you want one that looks like the one in your 2023.

You will also need to replace the crossbar that the motor swivels on, which is different for powered and dummy trucks.  Then you will need to wire the motors together.  The simplest way is to wire the new motor in parallel with the old one, which requires three wires between the units.  The new truck will also have an electromagnetic coupler, which you may want to wire to the other unit, making 4 wires.  The motors can also be wired in series, to get better slower-speed operation; but that is more complicated.  I tie-wrapped the wires between units to the coupler drawbars, effectively locking the units together, since I always run them as a set and prefer not to mess with connectors unnecessarily.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 10:16 AM

I know once you power it down it stops and then the next time it changes direction, but it makes noise when it is standing still like it is straining and can't move.  I haven't meesed with it a lot because i am afraid i am going to burn up the armiture.  Would i have to do any mods to the dummy engine to put a power truck on it.  I would like to do a long train with elevation changes but it doesn't look possible with what i have now. 

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 9:59 AM

The power truck is just the truck with the motor on it.  It is possible to modify the dummy unit by putting a power truck into it so that both units are pulling.

Do you understand the operation of the e-unit--the reversing unit?  Each time you turn on the track voltage, the locomotive should do something different.  It should run forward, then stand still with the lights on, then run backward, then stand still with the lights on, then forward, and so on.  Could it simply be standing still in the neutral position when you "have to power it up all the way then back down and then back up"?

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 9:26 AM
I still think something is not right with the motor.  Sometimes when i turn it on i have to power it up all the way then back down and then back up before it will move.  It makes a noise but it won't move until i turn it off and then back on.  What is a power truck and how does it work?
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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, November 13, 2006 9:16 AM
That may be all it will do.  It's not a strong puller.  I put a power truck into my dummy unit just so I could pull a decent-sized train.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 13, 2006 7:01 AM

Ok, so i checked and i did have the wires on wrong.  I cleaned the truck and greased it plus i lubed everything the instruction book showed to oil.  The train ran a lot better but when i hooked up some cars it didn't want to pull them.  I had 6 cars plus the dummy engine and it was all the train could do to pull it.  I cleaned the armature and the track but i don't know what else to do.  Any suggestions or do you think i would be better off taking it  to someone?

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