Need Transformer Advice

[Anonymous]

The K-Line Power Chiefs do respond very quickly to anything that seems like excessive current. Even a momentary short caused by an engine passing over a poorly designed switch can cause the red light to come on and the voltage output to collapse, sometimes to the point of cycling the engine into neutral.

Richard Bjorkman

[Anonymous]

Richard

I have a couple of K-Line power chiefs also. A good transtormer for running trains,not so good for some accessories. I tried powering 3 Lionel oil pumps with them. Every time one of the solenoids energized the red light would flash indicating a short circuit. three of them drove it nuts. I wound hooking them up to a straight,fused 100 watt power transformer,no problem.

Dale Hz

[Jumijo]

Richard,

Good to see you posting here at the CTT Forum. Please don't be a stranger. We could all benefit from your input. Feel free to contact me via email.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: QUOTE: Originally posted by jaabat

I've heard that those K-Line Super Chiefs tend to cook themselves if left running for extended periods. They work well but need to be shut down occasionally or they overheat and fry.


Hmmm.... I'll have to check into that. Do you have any documented instances, or could this be an old wives tale?

Any idea how long is "too long"? Any idea how much power was being drawn?

With some data, I'd be willing to see if mine would "cook".

I believe I am the person that jaabat was referring to. Fact is, the Boston Area Tinplate Trackers (of which I am a member) have managed to fry two K-Line 120-Watt transformers. With impeccable timing, we did this in late December 2005, just as K-Line was closing its doors. I still have the burned out units in my home.

By contrast, I have two K-Line 120-watt tranformers on my home layout, and they have performed very well for over two years. I friend of mine also has a K-Line 120-watt transformer that has performed well on his home layout for over a year. But our home layouts are not left on for hours and hours at a time--they are run for a relatively short time and then turned off. The Tinplate Trackers layout, on the other hand, runs for six hours at a time at train shows. We noticed that the K-Line transformers tend to get very hot under these circumstances and, alas, are subject to failure.

I still love my K-Line transformers on the home layout, though.

Richard Bjorkman

[Anonymous]

Yes I would use it on new transformers,they have no spike protection. You could probably use the 33 volt ones as I dont think new transformers have a whistle boosting winding. I personally use the 36 volt. I have the new Lionel ZW and the MTH Z4000. New transformers have good fast acting breakers but I still use 10 amp fast blow fuses.

Dale Hz

[johnandjulie13]

Dale and Daniel:

Thanks again for the information. One more question, would you suggest using zener diodes on new transformers as well? Would those require a diode with different characteristics?

Regards,

JO

[Anonymous]

I purchased mine from www.mouser.com , just search the part number. Im sure other major supply houses have them also. They were about a dollar each. I dont know the maximum voltage on the other various Lionel transformers. They sometimes measure a bit more on a voltmeter than stated on the transformer. The 36 volt one is safe in all applications and still removes most of the spike. Yes it acts like a very brief short circuit but really only clips the top or bottom of the sine wave.

Dale Hz

[Jumijo]

And these can be placed at the terminals on the back of a transformer? Right where the hot and ground are connected?

Can they be purchased at Radio Shack, and what is the average cost?

Jim

[Anonymous]

johnandjulie13,

Yes, if the voltage exceeds 36 volts, the 1.5KE36CA transient voltage suppressor (TVS) will conduct and clip the top off of the spike (note that the 1.5KE36CA TVS is a pair of 36 V zeners back to back).

The peak voltage is 1.414 times the rms voltage. For the TW, a rms voltage of 23 V gives a peak of 32.5 volts. Note that if the voltage rating of the TVS is exceeded on a regular basis, it will overheat and burn out. I would stick with the 36 V TVS.

Daniel Lang

[johnandjulie13]

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand correctly, if there is a voltage spike greater than 36 volts, the zener diode would then short the circuit and prevent any current from getting to the engine. Is that accurate?

I use a refurbished TW transformer, the voltage output is 7-18V and with the whistle button, that would be a max of 23V. So, would a 30V diode be more appropriate for this transformer?

Thanks again for the help.

Regards,

JO

[Anonymous]

JO

A zener diode is a special type of diode that conducts only when a certain voltage is exceeded. In the case of the diode in question it is 36 volts. This diode is also special in that it it is bi directional. The maximum output of a PW ZW is about 20 volts AC. The peak voltage,since AC current is sinasoid like, is about 28 volts . (20VAC times the square root of 2). PW transformers also have a booster coil for the air whistle so the peak voltage if the whistle is pressed at full throttle is slightly over 33 volts thus a 36 volt diode is chosen. On transformers without a booster coil a 33 volt zener could be used. A voltage too low would cause a short circuit.

A train layout is a rather violent place electrically. Trains derail,rollers arc ect, and this produces voltage spikes. These can exceed 50 or more volts peak but only for a few milliseconds. This is harmless to PW locomotives but to those with modern electronics it can have a cumulative damaging effect, destroying electronics over time. With a zener across the leads the spike is hopefully conducted safely across the common to the hot lead and does not enter into the engine circuit.. To be even safer a zener could also be installed in the engine. Unfortunatly train manufacturers have not really addressed this issue. Installing one as well as a fast acting fuse can offer cheap protection against electrical failures in engines .

Dale H

[Anonymous]

johnandjulie13,

Just place one 1.5KE36CA between the track common (outer track) and track hot (center track) at each lockon or power feed. The direction is not important as they are bidirectional.

Daniel Lang

[johnandjulie13]

Being an electronics idiot, could you explain further about how the zener diode provides spike protection? Also, could you also elaborate on the connection? It was indicated that the diodes should be placed across each terminal with the ground terminal. Which terminal is ground? I thought my transformer (a refurbished TW) does not have a "true" ground. Also, (I know this is a dumb question) which direction should the diode be facing?

Thanks for the assistance.

Regards,

JO

[Anonymous]

Brought this old post up for a member asking about Bell whistle cotroller.

Dale Hz

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dale Hz

The cheapest spike protection you can get is from Mouser or othr electronic supply. Get a 36 volt bi directional zener diode and put across each transformer lead to the ground terminal. They cost about a dollar and dissapate 1500 watts.

The part number is 1.5KE36CA in case you want to order some.

Daniel Lang

[Anonymous]

I agree on the use of fast-blow fuses rather than depending on the $4 thermal breakers used in the Breaker Boxes and the TPCs, Z-4ks, PoHos,etc.
I use PoHos linked to TPCs on both of my layouts with Autolite cartridge fuse holders inline along with QSI PowerGards/Scott's arrestors.
I built a couple of 4-channel Breaker boxes, one for an o-gauge friend and one for my DCS system which I later sold along with the breaker box. I use 8 and 10 amp fuses on power districts supplied by 180 PoHos , depending on the load normally experienced and 15 amp on paralleled 135 PoHos linked to a TPC.

P.S:
According to a report on FNN and also reported by the Manager of my local store yesterday, Radio Shack plans to close 500 to 700 of their stores.

[Anonymous]

The cheapest spike protection you can get is from Mouser or othr electronic supply. Get a 36 volt bi directional zener diode and put across each transformer lead to the ground terminal. They cost about a dollar and dissapate 1500 watts. The best short protection is a fuse in my opinion. A fuse will always blow promptly while a circuit breaker being a mechanical device can fail. This is especially true in old Lionel transformers.

Dale Hz

[Anonymous]

You pretty much have all you need with the ZW and annother smaller transformer. Add the $13.00 sound activation box to get bell control - you'll need one for each block.

Protect your engines and layout today, go to radio shack and get a 4 circuit glass fuse holder and some 7 or 10 amp glass fuses. Put a fuse inline with each output A,B,C, D and the center rail of each block. Get plenty of extras.

Or, for $20 you can get a nice 4 circuit, 10 amp, circuit breaker box from Scotts Odd-N-Ends. The fuses are faster, but the breakers are way more convenient.

Replace your CW with any good refurbished postwar transformer. A KW would handle all your needs with lots of chioces for accessories. You don't have to go that big, even a 1033 or 1044 will work great. Put fuses or breakers in your lines and you're good to go.

Postwar transformers in good condition and properly wired and fused work just fine for any era trains. I believe that they maintain their value and are ultimately more reliable than their modern counterparts. They can even handle command control and modern electronics if you add the necessary protection.

Until you get in to truly massive, modern, scale layouts that are designed for command control, your ZW (and a lil' helper transformer) will do you right.

I wouldn't be so worried about your ZW damaging your engine's electronics - the fuses will help a lot in that regards. Consider adding a spike protector (also from Scotts) and you're pretty much covered for even the most modern and complex engine electronics.

Here's my power philosophy: even the newest, fanciest power supply (like a new z-4000 or new ZW) can not protect your trains without proper wiring and protection built in to the layout. And once the protection is built in to the layout wiring, it doesn't really matter what the power comes from, as long as there's enough of it.

[Anonymous]

The "Breaker Boxes" (four breakers per box) were an idea of Jim Barrett's designed primarily for the four channel TIU of DCS, but will work just fine with other units. The parts numbers and how to advice are demonstrated in his "Backshop Video" #8.
The fast-acting breakers he used are 10 amp Potter-Brumfield breakers[W28-XQ1A-10] from Newark Electronics[WWW.newarkinone.com] and "fast acting" in this case means 02-15 seconds interrupt time.
Other components can be found at Radio Shack---a plastic project box and 8 binding/connector posts. Newark Electronics also has the binding posts much cheaper. You can get the small amount of #16 stranded copper wire at NAPA or other auto outlet.

The 40 amp anode to case stud-mount rectifier diodes [1N1190AR--$3.50ea.] are available from All Electronics Corp [800-826-5432]. The studs bolt into the same bracket hole where you remove the old copper discs. After the ZW cover is off it requires removing two screws to shift rigging and brackets out of the way and being careful to realign heavy black paper insulators after diode installation when reinstalling brackets/rigging. Remove the wire that connected to the old copper discs and solder it to the diode's single terminal post.

[Jumijo]

I have a friend who runs a modular train layout at shows. He said they fry if left running for too long. I don't remember how long, but I do know old wives don't tell tales about K-Line transformers, so enjoy yourself. If it cooks, it cooks. I considered getting one of those myself after my CW-80 started acting up. I went with the MRC on the advice of many. It can run two trains and power accessories for a little more than a single throttled transformer costs.

Jim

[corton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jaabat

I've heard that those K-Line Super Chiefs tend to cook themselves if left running for extended periods. They work well but need to be shut down occasionally or they overheat and fry.

Hmmm.... I'll have to check into that. Do you have any documented instances, or could this be an old wives tale?

Any idea how long is "too long"? Any idea how much power was being drawn?

With some data, I'd be willing to see if mine would "cook".

[Jumijo]

I've heard that those K-Line Super Chiefs tend to cook themselves if left running for extended periods. They work well but need to be shut down occasionally or they overheat and fry.

Jim

[corton]

I took a slightly different route.

I bought a cheap K-Line set from Hobby Lobby and used the 40% off coupon to lower the price.

The set had the Super Chief 120 watt (output, not input like Lionel) transformer that includes both bell & whistle controllers.

Works like a champ. Sold all the other stuff from the set on eBay and made back most of the cost of the set.

[Anonymous]

Replacing the disc rectifiers is not a novice type repair. You can get the external circuit breakers from Scotts Odd and Ends.

Source for breakers:

http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/products.htm

[tumbleweed56]

I appreciate all of the great advice. A couple of more questions for everyone:

It sounds like my best bet is to stay with my vintage ZW transformer. I looked on Lionel's web site, and found the sound activation buttons. I am assuming that I need to order a total of 4, 2 for each throtle (bell and whistle). The whistle on my ZW seems to be erratic. It works sometimes with my MTH F3, but then needs to "rest" before I can use it again. I am assuming the sound activation buttons will bypass the whistle in the transformer and eliminate this problem?

Does anyone know if the sound activation buttons work with both older postware air whistles and the newer ones that are being produced today? I thought I had heard somewhere that the older transformers, like my postwar ZW, couldn't operated the newer whistles. Is this true?

I must admit that I am also wiring challenged. What are stud rectifier diodes (to replace the old useless selenium or copper discs in the ZW's horn/whistle circuits)? Are they difficult to install?

Finally, what do I need to do to install fast-acting circuit breakers mounted in boxes [or use fast-blow cartridge fuses]? Can I pick these parts up at Radio Shack or some place similar?

Thanks for all the help.

[Birds]

I think I found the older threads on how to make a combination whistle and bell button (one button for each).

• http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=53264&REPLY_ID=591891#591891


• http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=44721&REPLY_ID=477723#477723


• http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=33492&REPLY_ID=346674#346674

Because these whistle/bell buttons boost the voltage by 1.5 volts, when used in conjuction with something like the new MRC Pure Power transformers (whose buttons don't boost the voltage), shouldn't these buttons keep the engines from slowing down as well as be able to activate the older mechanical tender air whistles?

Birds

[Chris F]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chuckn

You can order the new ones from an authorized Lionel dealer. Part number is 818-2115-001 13.00 Button,dc Sound Activation

Weird! A search of Lionel's site (Customer Service, replacement parts) shows three sound activation buttons:

818-2115-001 Button, DC, Sound Activation
610-5905-001 Button, Snd Activation, RS/SS
610-5906-001 Button, Snd Activation, Comp

All are priced at $13 so they may all be the same. I do know that the part number for the sound activation button included with early RS locos was 15906, so I'd opt for the "5906" part number.

[lionelsoni]

There are several topics on how to make your own whistle control. I'll try to find them if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Birds

Checkout the "Pure Power" transformers from MRC. They have a 130 watt output single throttle "Pure Power", and a 270 watt ouput dual throttle "Pure Power Dual".

There are pure sinewave transformers (just like Lionel's vintage ZW, KW, and 1033) with bell and whistle buttons, and a single 14 volt accessory post. They seem to be good power supplies at a reasonable price (under $220 for the Pure Power Dual).

Birds

The MRC units slow the train down when the sound buttons are pressed. Also, they won't blow an air whistle. Electronic sound only. Annoys the heck out of me.

Jim