Need Transformer Advice

[tumbleweed56]

I have a small layout (Two 4x8s in an L shape) and I think I might need to buy a new transformer to power it. I have 7 022 switches, and several accessories. I have a mix of postwar locomotives, and several newer locomotives. I have a refurbished ZW that provides plenty of power, but does not have a bell button. I like the ZW, but I worry that it might damage the electronics in my newer engines. Is this a valid concern?

I also have a CW-80 transformer that I have used to power one loop where I run my newer locomotives that use the bell button (such as an MTH engine with PS2). The CW-80 went crazy today, and given the problems that I have read that others have had with it, I suspect I need to buy something else.

At this point, command control is not an option because of expense. I do not have any DCS or TMCC locomotives, and the cost to put those electronics in my postwar engines is prohibative.

Any recomendations on what to buy?

[Anonymous]

Get the seperate sound activation buttons to trigger the extra effects (about $10 each) and get some quick blow breakers (one for each output terminal on the ZW) and you should be all set.

chuck

[Anonymous]

I have heard and read about the horror stories about the CW-80, and I think all it would be good for is for powering accessories. I myself soon, once I pay off some of my layaway purchases, I am going to order the Z-4000; since I hace 2 PS1 engines they will be easier to program with it, and will provide plenty of power.

Chris

[msacco]

I'm wiring my layout currently using the new ZW. I also am doing a double 4x8 L shaped layout.
I like the flexiblity with the new ZW. You can add up to 4 powerhouse 180s to this controller. This gives you four separate power districts and a lot of power overall. I did have to send the ZW controller back because of a stripped right handle but LIonel did the right thing and fixed it even out of warranty. Other than that so far so good.

Mike S.

[Birds]

Checkout the "Pure Power" transformers from MRC. They have a 130 watt output single throttle "Pure Power", and a 270 watt ouput dual throttle "Pure Power Dual".

There are pure sinewave transformers (just like Lionel's vintage ZW, KW, and 1033) with bell and whistle buttons, and a single 14 volt accessory post. They seem to be good power supplies at a reasonable price (under $220 for the Pure Power Dual).

Birds

[Anonymous]

Your postwar ZW is not going to cause a problem with either older or modern engines. Apparently your ZW is refurbished except for the whistle/horn rectifier discs.
As Chuck suggested protect your pw ZW with fast-acting circuit breakers mounted in boxes [or use fast-blow cartridge fuses]. As he also advised you can wire a pair of horn/whistle buttons in line to overcome the transformer's worn out rectifiers. [An alternative here is to purchase and install, or have installed, a pair of $3.50 stud rectifier diodes to replace the old useless selenium or copper discs in the ZW's horn/whistle circuits].

[Birds]

I misunderstood the original post. I thought you were looking for a small to medium transformer to replace the CW-80 and use in addition to the ZW.

Question:
I've read several posts, like Chuck's, which recommend purchasing and using a sound activation button. I have searched for them on the net and in catalogues but can not find them (only vintage ones on that on-line auction place).

Are there new ones, and if so is there a source and/or part number someone can post?

Thanks,
Birds

[Anonymous]

You can order the new ones from an authorized Lionel dealer. Part number is 818-2115-001 13.00 Button,dc Sound Activation

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Birds

Checkout the "Pure Power" transformers from MRC. They have a 130 watt output single throttle "Pure Power", and a 270 watt ouput dual throttle "Pure Power Dual".

There are pure sinewave transformers (just like Lionel's vintage ZW, KW, and 1033) with bell and whistle buttons, and a single 14 volt accessory post. They seem to be good power supplies at a reasonable price (under $220 for the Pure Power Dual).

Birds

The MRC units slow the train down when the sound buttons are pressed. Also, they won't blow an air whistle. Electronic sound only. Annoys the heck out of me.

Jim

[lionelsoni]

There are several topics on how to make your own whistle control. I'll try to find them if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[Chris F]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chuckn

You can order the new ones from an authorized Lionel dealer. Part number is 818-2115-001 13.00 Button,dc Sound Activation

Weird! A search of Lionel's site (Customer Service, replacement parts) shows three sound activation buttons:

818-2115-001 Button, DC, Sound Activation
610-5905-001 Button, Snd Activation, RS/SS
610-5906-001 Button, Snd Activation, Comp

All are priced at $13 so they may all be the same. I do know that the part number for the sound activation button included with early RS locos was 15906, so I'd opt for the "5906" part number.

[Birds]

I think I found the older threads on how to make a combination whistle and bell button (one button for each).

• http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=53264&REPLY_ID=591891#591891


• http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=44721&REPLY_ID=477723#477723


• http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=33492&REPLY_ID=346674#346674

Because these whistle/bell buttons boost the voltage by 1.5 volts, when used in conjuction with something like the new MRC Pure Power transformers (whose buttons don't boost the voltage), shouldn't these buttons keep the engines from slowing down as well as be able to activate the older mechanical tender air whistles?

Birds

[tumbleweed56]

I appreciate all of the great advice. A couple of more questions for everyone:

It sounds like my best bet is to stay with my vintage ZW transformer. I looked on Lionel's web site, and found the sound activation buttons. I am assuming that I need to order a total of 4, 2 for each throtle (bell and whistle). The whistle on my ZW seems to be erratic. It works sometimes with my MTH F3, but then needs to "rest" before I can use it again. I am assuming the sound activation buttons will bypass the whistle in the transformer and eliminate this problem?

Does anyone know if the sound activation buttons work with both older postware air whistles and the newer ones that are being produced today? I thought I had heard somewhere that the older transformers, like my postwar ZW, couldn't operated the newer whistles. Is this true?

I must admit that I am also wiring challenged. What are stud rectifier diodes (to replace the old useless selenium or copper discs in the ZW's horn/whistle circuits)? Are they difficult to install?

Finally, what do I need to do to install fast-acting circuit breakers mounted in boxes [or use fast-blow cartridge fuses]? Can I pick these parts up at Radio Shack or some place similar?

Thanks for all the help.

[Anonymous]

Replacing the disc rectifiers is not a novice type repair. You can get the external circuit breakers from Scotts Odd and Ends.

Source for breakers:

http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/products.htm

[corton]

I took a slightly different route.

I bought a cheap K-Line set from Hobby Lobby and used the 40% off coupon to lower the price.

The set had the Super Chief 120 watt (output, not input like Lionel) transformer that includes both bell & whistle controllers.

Works like a champ. Sold all the other stuff from the set on eBay and made back most of the cost of the set.

[Jumijo]

I've heard that those K-Line Super Chiefs tend to cook themselves if left running for extended periods. They work well but need to be shut down occasionally or they overheat and fry.

Jim

[corton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jaabat

I've heard that those K-Line Super Chiefs tend to cook themselves if left running for extended periods. They work well but need to be shut down occasionally or they overheat and fry.

Hmmm.... I'll have to check into that. Do you have any documented instances, or could this be an old wives tale?

Any idea how long is "too long"? Any idea how much power was being drawn?

With some data, I'd be willing to see if mine would "cook".

[Jumijo]

I have a friend who runs a modular train layout at shows. He said they fry if left running for too long. I don't remember how long, but I do know old wives don't tell tales about K-Line transformers, so enjoy yourself. If it cooks, it cooks. I considered getting one of those myself after my CW-80 started acting up. I went with the MRC on the advice of many. It can run two trains and power accessories for a little more than a single throttled transformer costs.

Jim

[Anonymous]

The "Breaker Boxes" (four breakers per box) were an idea of Jim Barrett's designed primarily for the four channel TIU of DCS, but will work just fine with other units. The parts numbers and how to advice are demonstrated in his "Backshop Video" #8.
The fast-acting breakers he used are 10 amp Potter-Brumfield breakers[W28-XQ1A-10] from Newark Electronics[WWW.newarkinone.com] and "fast acting" in this case means 02-15 seconds interrupt time.
Other components can be found at Radio Shack---a plastic project box and 8 binding/connector posts. Newark Electronics also has the binding posts much cheaper. You can get the small amount of #16 stranded copper wire at NAPA or other auto outlet.

The 40 amp anode to case stud-mount rectifier diodes [1N1190AR--$3.50ea.] are available from All Electronics Corp [800-826-5432]. The studs bolt into the same bracket hole where you remove the old copper discs. After the ZW cover is off it requires removing two screws to shift rigging and brackets out of the way and being careful to realign heavy black paper insulators after diode installation when reinstalling brackets/rigging. Remove the wire that connected to the old copper discs and solder it to the diode's single terminal post.

[Anonymous]

You pretty much have all you need with the ZW and annother smaller transformer. Add the $13.00 sound activation box to get bell control - you'll need one for each block.

Protect your engines and layout today, go to radio shack and get a 4 circuit glass fuse holder and some 7 or 10 amp glass fuses. Put a fuse inline with each output A,B,C, D and the center rail of each block. Get plenty of extras.

Or, for $20 you can get a nice 4 circuit, 10 amp, circuit breaker box from Scotts Odd-N-Ends. The fuses are faster, but the breakers are way more convenient.

Replace your CW with any good refurbished postwar transformer. A KW would handle all your needs with lots of chioces for accessories. You don't have to go that big, even a 1033 or 1044 will work great. Put fuses or breakers in your lines and you're good to go.

Postwar transformers in good condition and properly wired and fused work just fine for any era trains. I believe that they maintain their value and are ultimately more reliable than their modern counterparts. They can even handle command control and modern electronics if you add the necessary protection.

Until you get in to truly massive, modern, scale layouts that are designed for command control, your ZW (and a lil' helper transformer) will do you right.

I wouldn't be so worried about your ZW damaging your engine's electronics - the fuses will help a lot in that regards. Consider adding a spike protector (also from Scotts) and you're pretty much covered for even the most modern and complex engine electronics.

Here's my power philosophy: even the newest, fanciest power supply (like a new z-4000 or new ZW) can not protect your trains without proper wiring and protection built in to the layout. And once the protection is built in to the layout wiring, it doesn't really matter what the power comes from, as long as there's enough of it.

[Anonymous]

The cheapest spike protection you can get is from Mouser or othr electronic supply. Get a 36 volt bi directional zener diode and put across each transformer lead to the ground terminal. They cost about a dollar and dissapate 1500 watts. The best short protection is a fuse in my opinion. A fuse will always blow promptly while a circuit breaker being a mechanical device can fail. This is especially true in old Lionel transformers.

Dale Hz

[Anonymous]

I agree on the use of fast-blow fuses rather than depending on the $4 thermal breakers used in the Breaker Boxes and the TPCs, Z-4ks, PoHos,etc.
I use PoHos linked to TPCs on both of my layouts with Autolite cartridge fuse holders inline along with QSI PowerGards/Scott's arrestors.
I built a couple of 4-channel Breaker boxes, one for an o-gauge friend and one for my DCS system which I later sold along with the breaker box. I use 8 and 10 amp fuses on power districts supplied by 180 PoHos , depending on the load normally experienced and 15 amp on paralleled 135 PoHos linked to a TPC.

P.S:
According to a report on FNN and also reported by the Manager of my local store yesterday, Radio Shack plans to close 500 to 700 of their stores.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dale Hz

The cheapest spike protection you can get is from Mouser or othr electronic supply. Get a 36 volt bi directional zener diode and put across each transformer lead to the ground terminal. They cost about a dollar and dissapate 1500 watts.

The part number is 1.5KE36CA in case you want to order some.

Daniel Lang

[Anonymous]

Brought this old post up for a member asking about Bell whistle cotroller.

Dale Hz

[johnandjulie13]

Being an electronics idiot, could you explain further about how the zener diode provides spike protection? Also, could you also elaborate on the connection? It was indicated that the diodes should be placed across each terminal with the ground terminal. Which terminal is ground? I thought my transformer (a refurbished TW) does not have a "true" ground. Also, (I know this is a dumb question) which direction should the diode be facing?

Thanks for the assistance.

Regards,

JO

[Anonymous]

johnandjulie13,

Just place one 1.5KE36CA between the track common (outer track) and track hot (center track) at each lockon or power feed. The direction is not important as they are bidirectional.

Daniel Lang

[Anonymous]

JO

A zener diode is a special type of diode that conducts only when a certain voltage is exceeded. In the case of the diode in question it is 36 volts. This diode is also special in that it it is bi directional. The maximum output of a PW ZW is about 20 volts AC. The peak voltage,since AC current is sinasoid like, is about 28 volts . (20VAC times the square root of 2). PW transformers also have a booster coil for the air whistle so the peak voltage if the whistle is pressed at full throttle is slightly over 33 volts thus a 36 volt diode is chosen. On transformers without a booster coil a 33 volt zener could be used. A voltage too low would cause a short circuit.

A train layout is a rather violent place electrically. Trains derail,rollers arc ect, and this produces voltage spikes. These can exceed 50 or more volts peak but only for a few milliseconds. This is harmless to PW locomotives but to those with modern electronics it can have a cumulative damaging effect, destroying electronics over time. With a zener across the leads the spike is hopefully conducted safely across the common to the hot lead and does not enter into the engine circuit.. To be even safer a zener could also be installed in the engine. Unfortunatly train manufacturers have not really addressed this issue. Installing one as well as a fast acting fuse can offer cheap protection against electrical failures in engines .

Dale H

[johnandjulie13]

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand correctly, if there is a voltage spike greater than 36 volts, the zener diode would then short the circuit and prevent any current from getting to the engine. Is that accurate?

I use a refurbished TW transformer, the voltage output is 7-18V and with the whistle button, that would be a max of 23V. So, would a 30V diode be more appropriate for this transformer?

Thanks again for the help.

Regards,

JO

[Anonymous]

johnandjulie13,

Yes, if the voltage exceeds 36 volts, the 1.5KE36CA transient voltage suppressor (TVS) will conduct and clip the top off of the spike (note that the 1.5KE36CA TVS is a pair of 36 V zeners back to back).

The peak voltage is 1.414 times the rms voltage. For the TW, a rms voltage of 23 V gives a peak of 32.5 volts. Note that if the voltage rating of the TVS is exceeded on a regular basis, it will overheat and burn out. I would stick with the 36 V TVS.

Daniel Lang

[Jumijo]

And these can be placed at the terminals on the back of a transformer? Right where the hot and ground are connected?

Can they be purchased at Radio Shack, and what is the average cost?

Jim