Need some engineering opinion on a hydrolic lift device

[FJ and G]

Sometimes you need to get the wheels in your head spinning long before tackling a novel project.

I'm nowhere's near this particular project but have occasionally been mulling the idea of getting trains up and down to 3 levels of shelving.

There are tried and true means of accomplishing this that include (but are not limited to):

1. helix
2. ramp track
3. human power via a "cassette" or several other variations of lift devices, more practical in smaller scales of trains w/less weight
4. elevators

I'm particularly interested in this last category and I believe that several layouts actually have incorporated elevators.

The most common elevator would be for a straight stretch of track that can be moved on rails up and down, sort of like a garage door opener.

The elevator that I propose building (have never seen or heard of this) is a large circle of track, say 4 or 5 feet in diameter that a small or medium sized O scale train can fit on.

If you've been to auto repair places, they use hydraulic lifts. When you change your own tires, you may have even used such a device or even a mechanical jack.

The jack could be placed on the ground with the pole going up through the circular device with the train sitting on it.

The challenges would be to get the jack to stop at exactly the correct spot and also to raise and lower the device in an expedient manner.

If an air pump were used, it might generate a lot of unwanted noise, however. An electrical device, perhaps like the garage door opener might be preferred.

Why go thru the trouble and instead go with a helix or ramp?

For one, if you don't have a lot of space for a wide-radius helix, then the slope of the track may be too steep. Also, if you are putting the layout in a hallway, you might wi***o dismantle the device for storage to free access for the hallway. Obviously then, our device would need to be able to be disassembled and assembled with ease.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, hydraulics are really only used when serious weight is involved. Over at the live steam club they have a turntable that is justlike one of those garage lifts you mentioned. But, keep in mind, those trains can weigh well over 1000 pounds.

If you are going to consider having a 4 to 5 foot circle, why not just build the helix and get it over with. I thought we had this figured out last year, and you were going to go with an oval shaped helix. What happened?

If that doesn't work, I like the straight lift idea. It's easier.

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Have you thought of a chain drive system? At work we have various lift devices which must be fairly precise. In one appliction we have a hydraulic as well as a chain drive, and the chain drive is infinatly more precise and smooth. By chain drive I mean like a bicycle chain-like drive. Some garage doors use a chain drive, so there may be a source for parts. As far as stoppong at specific levels, a limit switch(s) would allow stopping points, and if you use different gearing on the electric motor or use a stepper motor it would slow things down increasing the limit travel and increasing the torque. Got me thinking now, Garage door opener driveunit, solid shaft between two opposed drive cogs with a stationary lower wheels, idler wheel for tension adjustment. The track attached to the outside of the drive chain, with clearance to allow the track to pivot so the track would be horizonal. I love dreaming up stuff!

[FJ and G]

S-P

That sounds nice, and you got me going now: chain or rope with a counterweight attached, sort of like an elevator uses; may need to study how an elevator works.

Elliott,

I'm working sloooowly.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually, a screw drive would work well for this. A single motor with a sprocket to drive a chain, and sprockets on the ends of some threaded rods at each end. Add a couple of micro switches to to set the travel limits. One button for up and one for down, the rest is automatic.

Dave, not as slowly as I am.[swg]

[FJ and G]

Sounds like a stationary bicycle could be erected with sprocket connected to screw drive so you could sit and pedal

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, there's no reason you couldn't power this with a hand crank. Hmmmm, model railroading exercise. And I always thought those two activities were mutually exclusive. I better sit down and give this some thought.

See why I liked the motor better?[swg]

[lionelsoni]

There was an article about a train elevator in OGR a while back. I will post the date when I find it, if someone else doesn't get to it first.

[Roger Bielen]

Dave a problem with a hydrolic ram is that you need as much space below the unit as the intended lift. The shaft has to go somewhere when in the down position. Big Boy's screw idea also came to mind as I was going througn the posts. Depending on the pitch of the threads you can have an extremely fine adjustment, at the cost of time. With a varying pitch thread you could go fast and slow as you reach a stop point, the only problem would be the follower design.

[highrailjon]

Dave, You may want to consider this as an option. All you need is some running water!![:D]

[jkerklo]

Dave, you are an inspiration!

OK, picture this. A long wall or adjacent walls. Trains are stored/displayed on tracks on the wall. Each shelf has two (or more tracks) one track holds the train, the other is empty. Adjacent sets of shelves (side by side) are offset by one-half the shelf spacing. Shelves are long enough for a train, with sufficient space between them to ramp half the shelf spacing distance. Each shelf has one track up, another down.

Now, remember those trains in Peru that go up the side of a mountain by switching back and forth on switch-backs!

Just shuffle trains on the empty tracks on the shelves until they are at layout height.

Heck, forget the layout. YOU HAVE A VERTICAL LAYOUT!

Add some of your superb scenery. Easy to view, even close up. Put any train back on the track, without reaching.

Anyone has an empty wall, even a hallway. Think of the time that could be spent shuffling trains around.

Even better. Recall those little plastic toys that had an array of letters on movable tiles, with one tile missing. Moving the tiles around to spell words could take days.

Well, put a train on all but one of the shelf tracks. It could take weeks to get a train from the top to the bottom. What fun.

I like this idea. Thanks for the inspiration. Anyone seen anything like it? Probably. It is rather easy.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[FJ and G]

John and Jon

I've been mulling this over and the waterwheel gave me an idea. I have a drill press and it has a sort of "capstan" that when you turn it, the press raises and lowers. A captstan could be built to raise and lower the train, just like in the days of yore when sailors manned the capstan to raise and lower the chain.

Another idea would be to create an inverse spiral helix, that models an open pit ore mine. Of course this will defeat the purpose of saving space but the "cool" factor would override any inconveniences to people trying to move thru the hallway.

This open pit mine photo, taken out west in the earlier days of steam, was too long to run across the page so you will need to turn your computer sideways to see it, as I'm running it vertical.



BTW, John,

I've long considered a logging layout with switchbacks going 9 feet up to the ceiling. You could intersperse the switchbacks with loops around the mountains and thru tunnels for continuous operations when you get tired of throwing turnouts and stop and goes.

Of course w/MTH's TIU and AIU and preprogrammed looping capability, it even is possible to completely automate switchback moves using the recording feature, the locomotive would start and stop and the turnouts would change on their own.

[jkerklo]

Dave, even better.

The shelf switchbacks go up to a ceiling shelf that goes around the room and through the wall, to another shelf switchback in the hall, then to each room of the house. Each room has a shelf switchback and some have more table layouts.

The whole house becomes a train layout!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[lionelsoni]

Here it is: OGR, August, 2003, p. 65, "Vertical Train Storage Lift" by Carl Blum.

[Anonymous]

I'm in the process of building a vertical train lift using the scissor action principle.
The lift is eight feet long and six inches wide and to be used on a OO scale layout in the UK. The lift will take one or two trains, to and from a fiddle yard which is 15 inches above the main layout.

Our web site is at www.waldovia.co.uk but latest details are on our forum.
Animated gifs explaining the principle are here:
http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/projects/trainlift-04.gif
http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/projects/trainlift-05.gif

And a photograph of the project so far:
http://www.ospreyweb.myby.co.uk/wsr-miscpics/waldovia-trainlift-01.jpg

All pictures and details of the project will be on the site when it is finished (a couple of weeks maybe).

P.S. Sorry to butt in like this with my first post.

[lionelsoni]

For those unfamiliar with British modeling:

British OO is different from American OO. It is the British counterpart of HO. It is a scale of 4 millimeters to the foot (1:76) used with 16.5-millimeter HO (1:87) track.

A fiddle yard is a "backstage" yard, usually not meant to be seen, for holding trains not running on the layout.

[FJ and G]

Welcome, Governor, to the forum. Didn't see your reply until now. Very nice. Looking forward to how it works. Some cars have scissor jacks.

Very creative.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

A fiddle yard is a "backstage" yard, usually not meant to be seen, for holding trains not running on the layout.

Thanks for that Bob, it also helps me out.
I recently found out that in German it is Schattenbahnhof (hiding station).

[Anonymous]

I've posted a video of around 8.5MB in WMV format featuring my vertical traverser (or train lift) so those with Windows Media Player will be able to view it.
You are better off right clicking the link and downloading before viewing.

A few notes:
The trains are static as the track either side has yet to be placed (I only finished the lift yesterday after all).

Also, the sound track is to amuse the members of my forum so please excuse the siren sound and don't go rushing for the shelters.

The video will only be available for about a week as it has filled my server space. So if you are trying this link after about the 22nd May you will probably find it doesn't work.

If you are wondering how it fits into the layout, there is a plan here:
http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/2005-layout/layout-03.htm#latestplan

And now, the video:
(The video has now been replaced, however a frequently updated video is available which may include the train lift)
http://www.ospreyweb.myby.co.uk/wsr-miscpics/waldovia-current-video.wmv

[dwiemer]

How about using lever action? Simply have a section of track that is lifted or lowered by lever into place. It would be possible to have three levels. The best part about this is that it has fewer moving parts to go wrong.

[FJ and G]

dwiemer,

Would be interesting to see the lever action you propose in a diagram. You can email it to me and I'll post it if you have trouble with it.

Gov. : Couldn't get the video to show up in my Mac and still trying to follow the diagrams. But it does look interesting.

I'm some time away from completing the top shelf of the layout so I have some time to mull the pros and cons of a lift device vs a helix, or as the Brits say, a "spiral."

-----------------------

Related topic:

Governor,

You mentioned a "vertical traverser." Been reading Cyril Freezer's Model Railway book (from England).

He speaks about fiddle yards and then gets into some really neat concepts reg. cassettes, sector plates, traversers and even sector plate roundtables; perhaps the best way to turn a train while simultaneously routing new trains from staging. But my corridor is not wide enough to swing a sector plate roundtable.

I'm seriously considering using a sector plate in place of yard staging, as it will pretty much eliminate a whole nest of turnouts. The traverser plate is nice too, but again, more width is needed (I think) for it to slide back and forth.

[Anonymous]

More here:
http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/2005-layout/layout-10.htm

[FJ and G]

yikes! [:D]

[lionelsoni]

That's probably OO, which has about 1/4 the bulk of O.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

That's probably OO, which has about 1/4 the bulk of O.

Yes, it's OO scale.
The lift is 8 feet long, 6 inches wide and has a 15 inch lift.

[FJ and G]

I saw a motorcycle hoist for about $50 today in a Pep Boy ad that might also do the trick. In the same ad was a 2-ton auto hoist for about $100 that could hoist a train up or down to various levels.

When not used on your layout, you could use it to pull the engine out of your car or move a heavy bolder from the backyard.

[eZAK]

That is very interesting Governor!

What size motor are you using?

What is the capacity (weight limit) of the lift?

Can multiple tracks be stacked in order to store more trains?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eZAK

That is very interesting Governor!

What size motor are you using?

What is the capacity (weight limit) of the lift?

Can multiple tracks be stacked in order to store more trains?

Thanks

Initially I had a small 12v motor in mind but after some thought realised the motor free speed was too great and a gearbox would be needed. The whole plan started to look like a no-goer until I remembered an old Bosch cordless drill that I had kept with a view to finding some use for it.
It fitted the bill nicely with a 9.6v motor, switch reverse rather than mechanical and a variable trigger.
Nothing too technical here, I cut the handle part off the drill and mounted the remainder on the end of the screw shaft. [8D]
The handle part (with the trigger/reverse switch) will be attached on the end of a curly cord. Power will be from a mains/DC transformer.

The design is very similar to a scissor jack. The only difference is the extra scissor arms (albeit less strong) and a 10mm threaded bar for the main shaft (a scissor jack has a very course thread which presumably takes a heavier load). A scissor jack is rated around 1 ton, I have no reason to believe the train lift would'nt lift at least half that. So no worries there then [:D]

The lift is twin track and therefore can hold 1 x 8' and 1 x 7' train (points (switches) are on the lift).

The lift rises to my fiddle yard (staging yard) where there are 10 tracks ranging in length from 13' to 8' . The six longest fiddle yards tracks are split into two so the lift gives access to up to 19 trains.

This is the plan of the upper level:



More info here:
http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/2005-layout/layout-03.htm#latestplan

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eZAK
Can multiple tracks be stacked in order to store more trains?

Thanks

It is easiest to have just the two levels. With adjustable stops at both the top level and the bottom level it is guaranteed that the lift will come to rest in the exact same position every time it is used.
If an intermediate level is introduced it would be difficult to have the lift stop precisely each time.

Also there are micro switches top and bottom so when the lift reaches bottom the power is cut and the lift can only be raised. Vice versa for the top level.
Additional micro switches link the lift platform track to the appropriate level only when the platform has 'docked'.

[Anonymous]

Finally got a page together about this train lift:
http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/projects/trainlift-01.htm