Lionel #783 Hudson

[artyoung]

Was there ever an article in CTT about the 783? I got rid of all my old magazines a few years back (except for #1). I seem to recall something about tuning up or detailing or something. Anybody know? Thanks.

[sir james I]

I read your post and have all the issues but sorry I'm not gonna start looking. The 783 was my first Lionel Hudson and a big disappointment as it ran poorly. Still does. Lionel at the time was only 10 miles from me so I had them work on it. Didn't help much but I have seen some 783s that did run good. Good luck with yours.

[rrswede]

V8, back on Dec 15, 2011, you posted that CTT had an article in the May 2000 issue dealing with disassembly and repair of the 783. You still have it?

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/200222.aspx

swede

[lionelsoni]

There is a very-detailed 6-page article on 783 maintenance in that issue.  I am happy to scan it and send it to you if Kalmbach is okay with that.

[artyoung]

Lionelsoni / Bob Nelson: Yes, if you could do that I would very much appreciate it. Thanks. My email is [e-mail].

[lionelsoni]

Kalmbach people, may I do this?

[artyoung]

Roger or anyone monitoring, would this be okay? If not, is it available as a download of some kind?

[trains4fun]

I just finished going over my un-run 783/6-8406.  Here is what I found.

NEVER run them without checking the electronics board in the tender.  The original double back tape rots.  causing the board to move and short out.  I  fixed the mounting with new tape. 

Check all the solder joints for engine wires   I had 3 bad solder connections that had to be fixed. One on the pigtail for the tender connection caused the whistle to go off at random times until it was fixed.  

The front and rear drive wheels are driven by the linkage.  Make sure linkage is not binding.  Lightly oiled.  

One of the eccentrics kept catching on the linkage.  The eccentrics look as if they are designed for the flush mount, counter sunk headed screws.   My 783 had hex head screws holding the eccentric on the center drive wheel.  Looks nice but it stands up about .12"/3mm and can interfer with the other linkage.  I had to get a new eccentric since the interfernce caused it to break the drive dogs that located the eccentric.  When I got the new one I compared it to the old one.  The old one had the arm bent up to keep the linkage from hitting the screw head.  Getting the alternate, flush mount screw may save a lot of problems trying to adjust the linkages so they don't interfer with the screw head.

It wouldn't smoke.   Only a puff now and them.  Took the smoke unit apart and it had the resister and NO packing.   Strategically added some wick packing and it smokes well now.  Top and steamchest  You will need a needle type filler for the smoke unit.  The hole is small where you put the smoke fluid in.  

Added some teflon based gear lube to the gear box.  Gear box turned well and motor was aligned well.   High stack motor. 

10-15 minutes of break in running and it runs well. Good low speed for a pullmor motor.  Low geared, which is nice since my grandaughter likes to stuff the throttle to full and run away.  Top speed wont fall off 36" curves.

It runs on 36" curve, but 42" would probably keep both center wheels fully engaged on the track.  

 

[lionelsoni]

I would be interested to know whether your 783's eccentric crank leads on the left or the right side.  Most locomotives, including the NYC, used right-side lead.  The PRR and the Lionel 773 were an exception, using left-side lead.  So I changed one of my 773s--even though you can't see both sides at the same time!

[Rene Schweitzer]

lionelsoni

Kalmbach people, may I do this?

 

 

I didn't see your question until now. Because of copyright, I can't say that this is something you should do. The back issue is still in the store. But, given that more than a month has passed since you posted this question, my guess is that the question is moot anyway.

[arkady]

I have a 783, and it's probably my favorite steam locomotive.  It runs very well, and looks great.  That's the good news.

The not-so-good is that it was a nightmare to get it that way.  Out of the box, it would barely move at all.  Listing all the operations I had to go through to improve the running would make this a very long post, and I'm not sure I remember all of them, anyway.  They included removing and polishing all the side rods to eliminate any possible binding; adding shims to the drive shaft to adjust play; removing all old grease from the gearbox and replacing it with moly grease; making sure no MagneTraction magnets were dragging on the rear of the drivers.  (This last is apparently a common problem.  The magnet mounted for the rearmost pair of drivers just would not stay in place when I pried it away from the wheels, and I ended up removing it altogether.  It doesn't seem to have affected the engine's pulling power). 

I was aware of the shorting problem in the tender electronics, and checked for deteriorated foam before ever applying power.  Everything was okay, but the steam-chuffing sound never worked very well, and I ended up removing it and installing a Williams Tru-Blast II whistle/bell unit.  I also installed a Dallee constant-brightness LED headlight.

All of this is quick to write (and read), but believe me, it all took months of experimentation and work.  Complicating it all was the fact that I wanted working 700E valve gear on my 783, too.  That required a new steam chest from Lionel, as well as the appropriate parts from various suppliers.  It works and looks very good, but it's not a project I'd recommend to a novice. For a very long time, the 783 spent more hours disassembled on my workbench than it did on the track.

I also installed a 700E leading truck with scale wheels.  It needed a bit of minor re-engineering, since the 783's pony truck doesn't mount quite the same way as the 700E's, but it's working well.  I'm still adding 700E detail parts now and then, as I get the urge.  I've also added a cab floor and engineer and fireman figures.

As others have noted, the stock 783 will manage 036 curves at slow speed, but I don't particularly recommend it, as it looks pretty silly.  I haven't tried it on 036 since I installed the scale 700E truck.  It does handle my 048 curves with no problems, but it looks much better on the 072 curves.  I use it to haul a Lionel scale REA reefer with Atlas scale NYC 60' passenger cars behind.  It makes for a very attractive consist.

The 783 smokes very well, though I've never been crazy about the cylinder smoke feature.  And as it's very low geared, it often runs at or near full throttle, increasing the smoke output still more.  I fill the reservoirs of all my locomotives with an eyedropper.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from buying a 783; mine certainly began as a lemon, but I don't know that they were all like that.  My recommendation would be that if you're considering getting one, just be sure that it runs acceptably first.

Hope this addresses the original question.

[arkady]

Wow, I made that post a whole year ago.  Time really does fly, doesn't it?

Anyway, as I re-read it just now, I remembered that there was another issue I ran into when I upgraded my 783 -- and how to fix it.

It's about that scale-wheel front truck that I installed (see above).  A couple of months later, when I ran the 783, I noticed that it seemed unusually slow.  First thing I checked was wheel treads and rollers, for dirt.  It turned out that the front roller wasn't making any electrical contact at all, even though it was turning.  So I removed the roller from its carrier (be warned: you have to bend the sideframe of the carrier very carefully, to avoid breaking it), and discovered that the shaft and the roller were both full of black, oily crud.  I know some folks out there like to oil their rollers, but this was the point at which I decided never to do that.  Using contact cleaner, Q-tips and a toothpick, I cleaned out both the roller opening and its shaft.  The crud looked like ordinary dust that had been attracted to oil traces and built up inside till it formed a very effective insulating layer.

Once it was gone, I reassembled the collector assembly.  In the process, I discovered that its retaining screw was stripped, and wouldn't tighten.  Apparently it came out of the factory that way, since I'd never even had that assembly off before.  I replaced the screw with a slightly larger one from my parts box, and re-attached it to the locomotive.

So far, so good, and I could see the improvement in electrical contact at once.  But the 783 was still running abnormally slow, so I put it on my workbench again for another look.

Without keeping you in suspense, it turned out that the culprit was the scale-wheel leading truck.  One of the two wheelsets was badly out of gauge and much too tight.  I hadn't noticed it at first, since there was just barely enough side-to-side play for the axle to turn normally.  Until I ran it for a while, and a bit of dust and oil began to build up between the wheels and the truck frame.

I could barely rotate the axle with my thumb; obviously it was much harder for the 783's motor.  Using a small gear puller that I'd bought years ago for removing rotted prewar wheels, I opened up the gauge on the offending axle.  Immediately, I was able to use one of my dental picks to remove the packed filth that had wedged itself into the tiny crevice between wheel and frame.

Now the once-tight wheelset spun normally.  I applied a small drop of LaBelle lube to each bearing and re-attached the truck to the 783.  Success!  The Hudson could now reach and maintain its normal top speed (100 scale mph at 20 volts) with ease.  And both low-speed operation and high-speed tracking were improved as well.  Let this be a warning to those who contemplate putting a scale-wheel lead truck on their 783: don't take it for granted that the wheels are properly spaced.

I'm still adding detail parts to the 783, a year later.  My next project will be a 700E drop coupler, which will probably require a 700E pilot to do the job properly.