Well folks, I think we've beaten this horse to death. You either see value in TCA membership – or you don't.
Bob Keller
If I do not have to be a member of the TCA to attend the York meet, why should I be a tca member? The museum and museum maintence is the problem. The TCA members never voted to have a museum.
For all those who think that the TCA general dues support the York meet, you are incorrect. The York meet is organized and operated by the Eastern Division, which is separate from the National TCA.
As for the comments of the TCA Quarterly, features articles about "obscure prewar trains" I would disagree. The fact is the TCA quarterly is one of the few publications that publishes articles on these very interesting trains. And for the "clearly for the over 70 crowd" also seems a bit off to me. I am under 50 and collect prewar trains.
I will go on to say that as a collector of trains, after subscribing for 20 years, I dropped CTT several years ago as I found that it was not worth the value to my interests. I have heard similar comments from fellow collectors about this topic.
The comparison of the TCA to the LCCA as far as offering value, also seems a bit biased. It may be better for a specific person's tastes, but appears to make the assumption that everyone collects Lionel (or should). Not everyone does collect Lionel, so the LCCA is not for everyone, nor is the TCA for everyone. I personally have never even been interested in joining LCCA, as I do not collect Lionel.
I agree that the TCA could do a better job of delivering their information. As for the expenses of the TCA, I seem to recall that the largest expense is related to the printing and mailings of the TCA Quarterly and TCA newsletter. I personally think that the TCA needs to modernize and offer electronic versions of these publications. I am of the belief that maybe a higher or separate fee could be charged to those members that want to receive hard copies of the publications.
As for the advertising in the TCA newsletter, I believe that the revenue from that helps to lower the costs to the TCA members.
The TCA members do support a museum and if you never plan on visiting it or using any of its resources, I am sorry to hear that. I do not believe that the museum is a perfect institution, but it does display some incredible trains and has a very large library with numerous resources, which I think is a treasure trove of information.
I personally do not see a large membership drop due to the higher dues. Rather, I see the membership decline due to a decline in trains in everyday life, as trains are no longer the primary means of transportation like they were in the early 20th century. Therefore, although children may see toy trains when they are young, they don't see the real trains in their everyday life and trains do not hold their interest throughout life. Therefore, as the people who grew up with trains being a large part of their lives continue to age and pass away, the membership within the TCA will continue to decline from its peak. That being said, I do not see the TCA going away either.
NWL
I agree that the Toy Train Museum and library is probably at the root of the TCA's high expenses, and have posted on multiple occasions that the TCA needs to find a way to make them revenue neutral or close them. Maybe corporate sponsorship,
I don't see why folks who do not get value from the TCA would belong. The tangible benefits I get from the TCA are its quarterly magazine, insurance program, and trading mediation.I like to attend York, but I do not go every time. I expect to maintain my membership long after I stop going to the meet.
I guess the comparisons to the LCCA are inevitable. I belonged to the LCCA many years ago, and recently rejoined for a couple of years. My LCCA membership was of no value to me. I never purchased any of their custom runs. I did purchase a couple of their Lionel closeouts, but generally their closeout prices were higher than some other sources.,
To each their own.
I agree with others that have said the issue is value. I jointed TCA and LCCA in the late 1990s. I dropped membership in TCA about 5 or more years ago because I was getting little value out of the dues I was paying, whereas, I was getting value from my LCCA membership. I don't go to swap meets of either organization because there are none in my area, and I don't travel long distances just to go to a show. So, the value I was seeking was mostly the magazines and buy/sell publications. I re-joined TCA last year (at $50) to see if things had changed. So far not! The magazine is ok, but so much is dedicated to obscure, pre-war trains. This is clearly for the over-70 crowd. And, I was shocked at how few actual listings are in the TCA buy/sell publication. In fact, it appears to be 80% advertisements selling products or promoting conventions and 20% actual member listings. Here again the LCCA publication provides more value. And then there is the website, which is abysmal. It is confusing and hard to navigate. I find it nearly impossible to do a successful search on the Interchange track, or maybe there just isn't much listed there? The LCCA has kept up with the "internet" age with their website, where the TCA is just falling further and further behind. I find LCCA is really being agressive at keeping up with "modern day" members and their needs. In fact LCCA just announced a $25 annual membership where you get everything electronically rather than on paper. I'll be signing up for that.
The fact is, TCA is overpriced, I can only assume because members are supporting a Toy Train Museum (which I will never visit) and the York shows. It seems to me that TCA is still living in a bygone era, while other clubs are "keeping up with the times."
Sorry to infer that, but I'm a dues paying member.
Rob
"The simple law of economics dictates that as prices go up revenues go down." I think that this may be a misunderstanding of the Law of Demand, which, to quote Wikipedia, is, "...as the price of a product increases, quantity demanded falls...". For example, if I had sold hamburgers for a nickel apiece and now double my price to a dime, my sales will fall, but not significantly; so I will take in almost twice the revenue.
"The end always justifies the means" is the principle of consequentialism, which most Judeo-Christian sects condemn, in favor of deontology, or rule-based morality.
Bob Nelson
The range of opinions on this thread goes from price gouging to "I will pay anything that the TCA asks".
I don't think anyone posted that "I will pay anything that the TCA asks".
Fifteen dollars won't cover the admission to a movie with a trip to the snack bar for one person.
I like your idea, but if the fee was lowered to $21 instead, would that cause a corresponding surge in the membership? Could the TCA cover the expenses at this level? Where is the tipping point?
Just wondering how much coin was lost during the TCA museum's battle with Lancaster County over its septic system...?
I guess the replacement / upgraded septic system cost the TCA a pretty penny. They didn't have a choice on whether the work would be done,
Once again, the increase was fifteen dollars. That might cover lunch at a fast food place for my younger son and I.
Belonging to the TCA is certainly worth the cost of dues to me, regardless of whether I attend York.
I'm staying. But I do understand why some won't.
Perhaps an incremental increase would have lessened the blow...
SPMan I have reached the age where I am no longer required to pay National Dues but I do send donations when asked.
I have reached the age where I am no longer required to pay National Dues but I do send donations when asked.
Thank you.
I have reached the age where I am no longer required to pay National Dues but I do send donations when asked. I attended maybe 6 or 8 York shows during my working years and thought the dues were well worth it then. I am no longer able to travel and I doubt I will ever go to York again but I hope the organization will continue. I get very little from TCA local now but I still pay local dues. Sometimes I wonder why but I guess you can call it pay back for all the good times I had at TCA.
Ray
SPMan
Points taken Messers Nationwide and Burfle. I think I've said all I need to anyway, others can take it from here.
My brother-in-law's been to the Amherst show and loved it. I've got to get there myself some time.
Then there's the Amherst Railroad Society in Massachusetts that holds a massive train show once a year. Just about everyone who's anyone exhibits there. That show's open to the public and it's quite successful.
I am quite familiar with that show having attended since it was in a single hall on one day only. It is a great show, but it isn't York.The show is designed to be an open show, largely catering to the general public and Model Railroaders. Its worth the two hour drive (one way) for me. But I wouldn't drive much longer.
The York show caters to members of the TCA. While more and more folks who consider themselves operators have joined the TCA, a large portion of the folks who belong to the TCA are collectors. I drive around six and a half hours (one way) to attend. Again, the Amhurst Train Show is a great event, this post isn't intended to take anything away from it.
Firelock76 If the TCA wants to make additional money there's and easy and immediate solution: Open York and other TCA train meets to the general public, don't keep it members-only. I believe others have been saying this for a long time now. Why it's members-only I've no idea. Security? Come on, it's a train show, not an atomic bomb market. The plain fact of the matter more people have to be gotten interested in this wonderful hobby. I know there's trouble coming when I go to a local train meet and I'm "The Kid" at the age of sixty!
If the TCA wants to make additional money there's and easy and immediate solution:
Open York and other TCA train meets to the general public, don't keep it members-only. I believe others have been saying this for a long time now.
Why it's members-only I've no idea. Security? Come on, it's a train show, not an atomic bomb market.
The plain fact of the matter more people have to be gotten interested in this wonderful hobby. I know there's trouble coming when I go to a local train meet and I'm "The Kid" at the age of sixty!
Regardless of if York is open to the public or not, it would not raise a dime for the National TCA. The York meet is organized by the Eastern Division TCA; therefore, the money raised by the York shows go to the Eastern Division TCA and not the National TCA.
I believe that the only shows that the National TCA sponsor are the National Conventions.
Therefore, your argument that opening the York meet and other meets to the public would raise significant funds for the TCA is incorrect.
cwburfle Sorry, your idea has been suggested many times before.
Sorry, your idea has been suggested many times before.
Point taken, I'm sure it has, and by some TCA members themselves no doubt.
Look at it this way, since this thread has gone on to a second page already indicates to me there's people who care very strongly about this issue, especially when it's a very issue concerning the hobby's survival. If the hobby's to survive, or at least survive to provide us with all the variety we enjoy now, TCA and other like organizations have got to get aggressive in getting the word out. The local organizations and clubs seem to get it. I'm not sure the national organization does.
I could have called it Tax-a-chusetts but I'm trying to be nice here.
And you get a free 1 year TCA membership as a bonus.
Firelock76 ADCX Rob Firelock76 If the TCA wants to make additional money there's and easy and immediate solution: Open York and other TCA train meets to the general public, don't keep it members-only. And charge $50 admission plus registration to the first meet you attend, the rest for the next year are are registration only. You're joking, right?
ADCX Rob Firelock76 If the TCA wants to make additional money there's and easy and immediate solution: Open York and other TCA train meets to the general public, don't keep it members-only. And charge $50 admission plus registration to the first meet you attend, the rest for the next year are are registration only.
Firelock76 If the TCA wants to make additional money there's and easy and immediate solution: Open York and other TCA train meets to the general public, don't keep it members-only.
Open York and other TCA train meets to the general public, don't keep it members-only.
And charge $50 admission plus registration to the first meet you attend, the rest for the next year are are registration only.
You're joking, right?
No joke. That's how it is right now.
OK Mr. Burfle, fair enough, you made a good point. Just how closely swap meets (private or otherwise) are monitored by state tax people is an open question, so I won't go there.
So how about this: As I understand it the York meet involves several buildings. I've never been so I don't know for certain. How about segregating the private sellers in one or more buildings and saving the licensed dealers and exhibitors for the main building. Allow open admission to that building only. This gets the general public in without complications while leaving the informal non-professional sellers in peace.
Workable?
There has to be some solution here. I mean, it's easier to get into gun show than it is to get into the York show! There's nothing lethal being sold at train shows!
Well, MAYBE if you got 50 ZW transformers wired together that MIGHT be deadly....
It is great to have all sorts of ideas from non-members of how to change the TCA. I suggest that if you want to work towards changing the rules of the TCA that you join the TCA and work from the inside instead of the outside.
Another poster mentioned "mom-and-pop" sellers registering with the state of Pennsylvania for sales tax purposes. If they're working shows like Greenbergs or others that occur in Pennsylvania (or Virginia or Maryland or New Jersey or elswhere for that matter) they're registered already. This shouldn't be an issue.
The show is supposed to be about fellow members having tables to buy, sell and/or trade. Many of these people don't set up at other shows in Pennsylvania, and do not have tax numbers.
Even if they do shows in their own home territory, such as Virginia, Maryland, or New Jersey, their home tax numbers are no good in Pennsylvania. There is no reciprocal agreements between states on tax numbers.
I should add there's a TCA affiliate club here in Virginia that opens its shows to the public. I should know, I'm one of the public.
Excuse my whining and bitching about the incivility of posters who violate the forum rules:
"- No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don’t let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don’t sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so."
Nothing - not a thing.
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