Papa_D Got my eBay light green 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola the other day. Turns out it is not quite the same color as the 9033 PC. I have over 300 pieces of rolling stock from all eras, and the 16313 light green is not a match for any of them. The same is true for the 16313 dark green. Guess it’s just a throwback to the MPC era. LOL. Have fun collecting cheap classics……………………… Papa D
Got my eBay light green 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola the other day. Turns out it is not quite the same color as the 9033 PC. I have over 300 pieces of rolling stock from all eras, and the 16313 light green is not a match for any of them. The same is true for the 16313 dark green. Guess it’s just a throwback to the MPC era. LOL.
Have fun collecting cheap classics………………………
Papa D
Wouldnt surprise me if there were a score of minute shade variants. I think that our gondolas are different shades, plus there is the dark green gondola and the teal-green one I noted from a Google search. Potentially the lighting, but as I recall, this isnt the first time we have seen variations like that.
By any chance were there any gondolas mentioned in that article series, produced around the same time the 16313, that had your dark green body? It's possible yours is the one that was an error (lol). Also, I suspect there might be a third variant, as after you produced your briefing on the light green variation, and thus arose the paradox of the box, I searched google images for "Lionel 16313 Gondola", and the 2nd and 6th results seem to indicate a variation about halfway between ours shade wise. Might be the lighting, but hey. You never know.
As an aside, did you see that eBay has a lot of approx half the short gondolas of the MPC era up?
Mea Culpa on the 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola write-up. I have no idea where I came up with the production history in the earlier posting (which I will edit later). So to set the record straight, it was produced in only 2 years (U’88 & ’89) and came in only one set (11708 Midnight Shift).
Now the fun part about whether it came in two different green body colors. Here is a photo tinplatacis sent me of his 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola that came in his 11708 Midnight Shift set. Proof positive that there are two different color bodies for this piece of rolling stock.
Here’s my further investigation into this variation. My favorite reference booklet is the Toy Train Review “Lionel Illustrated Price Guide & History”, Vol. 2 1970 – 2000. It lists the 16313 without a photo as green body with white graphics and black cable reels produced in U’88 and ‘89 with no individual box (NIB). It lists the production years of the11708 Midnight Shift as U’88 and 89 which included the 16313. Next I looked in TM’s “Lionel Illustrated Price & Rarity Guide 1900 – 2002. It gave the same information as above, also with no photo. Then I looked in my “Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1970 – 2000” edited by Justin Moen. It shows a photo of the 16313 with a light green body and 3 white canisters. It also showed a box! It has the same U’88 and 89 production years. Now I’m confused. Did it only come in the 11708 Midnight Shift which means no box or was it also a separate sale item?
I looked in the ’88 catalogs and didn’t find the 16313. The ’89 Toy Fair Catalog had the 11708 Midnight Shift set with the 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola. It indeed had two black reels and…….a light green body the same as the 9033 PC short gondola that appeared on the same page. This raises a question on which of the body colors is rarer?
I looked back at the original article in the January ’95 issue of CTT’s and the photo shows the dark green variation.
Lastly I decided to look on eBay. There were two 16313’s listed for about the same price; one with the light green body and the other with the dark green body. To complete my collection, I both the one with the light green body for $19.99 including shipping.
Hopefully someone reading this thread can shed some additional light on this. Does anyone have a box stamped for the 16313 and does anyone have a 11708 set with a dark green body 16313?
I cannot, but I can probably email it to you. PM with your email and I will.
Boyd
A lot of the rolling stock from the MPC era is fairly inexpensive. As far as what's "classic", that's up to each of us to decide. What makes the short gondolas (and short boxcars & tank cars) fun to collect is their relatively limited production number. During the same time period, a far greater number of long gondolas were produced. One would need a lot of storage space and $$ to collect them all.
Tinplatacis
No, I wasn't aware of a body color variation for the 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola, nor does any of my reference material make mention of any variation for this piece of rolling stock. The value for this type of variation and its rarity would make it fairly valuable. Can you post a photo?
I think it was the 80s when I remember seeing a nice looking Florida long gondola. I forget the entire road name. Then a Sante Fe red and yellow gondola, I think also from the 80s. Not sure if either would now be a cheap classic.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Papa_D The 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola was produced from '87 through '90. In came in 2 starter sets; the 1687 Freight Flyer (with 2 white canisters) and the 11708 Midnight Shift (with 2 black reels). A very nice looking piece of rolling stock with operating knuckle couplers and metal wheels. A metal rivet is used to attach the trucks to the body. With a relatively long production run it is relatively easy to find at around 10 to 15 dollars. Since it only came in the two sets there is no individual box. It's part of a traditional size train I regularly run on my 0-27 layout. Have fun collecting cheap classics……………………… Papa D
The 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola was produced from '87 through '90. In came in 2 starter sets; the 1687 Freight Flyer (with 2 white canisters) and the 11708 Midnight Shift (with 2 black reels). A very nice looking piece of rolling stock with operating knuckle couplers and metal wheels. A metal rivet is used to attach the trucks to the body.
With a relatively long production run it is relatively easy to find at around 10 to 15 dollars. Since it only came in the two sets there is no individual box.
It's part of a traditional size train I regularly run on my 0-27 layout.
I have this gondola, it was original in the Midnight Shift set with the 8900 Vulcan switcher, same graphics and everything, but was light green like the Penn Central gondola you posted above. Were you aware of this variation?
The last “cheap classic” short gondola in this series is the 16392 Wabash first available un-cataloged in ’93 and then cataloged in ’94. In both years it was a separate sale item as part of the Rolling Stock Assortment (RSA). Catalogued versus un-catalogued in this instance merely means it was shown in the RSA group photo one year and not the other. Although not shown in the catalogue, it came with either 2 silver, white or black canisters. With a MSRP of $9.95 it was a pretty good bargain. By comparison the 16388 Lehigh Valley long gondola with 4 canisters also catalogued in ’94 had a MSRP of $31.95. Sales must have been decent, since it is relatively easy to find for a “cheap classic” price of around $10 to $15 dollars. A like new one including box and silver canisters is currently listed on eBay for $15 plus $10 shipping.
Below is my collection of all the “cheap classic” short gondolas plus some post war era short gondolas and a post “cheap classic” short gondola. The time spent collecting these was enjoyable, as is said “the hunt is everything”. And because they were relatively cheap, they didn’t break my train collecting bank.
The 16313 Pennsylvania short gondola was produced in U'88 & '89. In came in the 11708 Midnight Shift with 2 black reels. A very nice looking piece of rolling stock with operating knuckle couplers and metal wheels. A metal rivet is used to attach the trucks to the body.
Note (5/1/16): See later post for light green variation.
Summer's over, it's time to get back to trains and finish up on this thread!
Next up is the 16304 Rail Blazer produced in ’87 & ’88. It was only available in the 11701 Rail Blazer set. Interestingly enough, the color shown in the catalogue in ‘87 was orange and in ’88 red, both with white graphics and 2 black reel loads. The latter is slightly more difficult to find, but it is not rare.
Overall interesting looking rolling stock and the variation in color makes collecting fun.
Somehow got this one out of order, should have posted the 9017 Wabash produced from 78 to 81 and un-cataloged from 81 to 83 earlier. It also was a rolling stock assortment selection. It came with 2 gold canisters.
Getting back to gondolas, the 6258 Santa Fe short gondola was produced in ’85 & ’86 and again as an uncataloged item in ’92. It was part of the 1501 Midland Freight as well as in rolling stock assortments. The catalog didn’t show it with a load, but strangely the RSA appears to have included 3 silver containers. The blue body with yellow graphics makes a nice looking car.
I have the medium blue Great Borthern 9011. Then a slightly darker blue T.A.&G. RY. CO. and a dark blue one which looks black if the room is dark. I don't know how to post pictures of them here.
An earlier post on this thread covered the 9011 Great Northern 2 bay hopper car. It was noted that the 9011 was the champ when it came to variations with a total of 5: 1) Light blue with separate brake wheel, AAR trucks and MPC logo; 2) Light blue with molded brake wheel and Symington-Wayne trucks and MPC logo; 3) the same as 2 except without MPC logo; 4) a rare royal blue; and 5) a very rare dark blue. I have examples of the first 4 variations but not the last one. In his recent post, palallin said he had this very rare dark blue variation and would send me photos to post, so here it is. I’ve included the royal blue 9011 variation and the dark blue 9012 TA&G for comparison. While lighting and camera flash can alter colors, it does appear to be a darker blue than the royal blue 9011 and very close to the 9012 TA&G.
Thanks for the set number, Papa D. It is the Dark Blue; i have three photos, but I cannot post them because I don't have any place to post them or link them to.
If you want to see them (or post them), i can send them to you.
Thanks cheapclassics and LIRR1926, glad you are enjoying this thread.
palallin- Your set is the 1292 Sears 6-Unit Diesel Freight Set from 1972 consisting of the 8020 Santa Fe Alco Diesel, 9300 Penn Central Log Car, 9040 Wheaties 8" Boxcar, 9011 Great Northern 2 Bay Hopper, 9140 Burlington Long Gondola, and 9061 ATSF SPStyle Caboose. A nice set in and of itself. A dark blue 9011 Great Northern 2 Bay Hopper is very, very rare, I've never seen one in over 2 years of looking. If it is royal blue instead of dark blue, it's still rare. In either case, it's nice to tie either of these cars to to a specific set. If possible please post a photo.
Have fun collecting cheap classics.....
Papa D: I have a Dark Blue 9011. It came as part of a Sears set in '71 or '72. The set is headed by an 8020 Alco and contains a green Burlington (NOT BN) Gon, a wheaties boxcar, and PenCentral log dump, and an ATSF 9061 SP-style cabbose. Figure 8 of track.
Good evening all,
I do have this set and it is one of the more frustrating sets that Lionel ever made. It JUST misses being one of the better DC sets that was made. As Papa D. points out, it has a load of "Cheap Classics" rolling stock, but the engine is the deal breaker. It is the standard 2-4-0 of the time period, and the green is reasonably close (for a cheap MPC attempt) at the Southern's color. It is the stupid Southern Streak on the side of the tender that just ruins it. Seriously, was someone asleep at the switch when that name was selected? Reminds me of the Rail Blazer fiasco a couple of years later on the side of a gondola or box car on a small Rock Island set. If they wanted to have some continuity to the theme, at least the caboose should have had the same name. There is some salvation. A few years later, Lionel produced some very inexpensive AC engines (but no matching caboose), and I think Southern was perhaps on the side of a tender. Not quite the same color as the Southern Streak caboose, but at least the same road name. It does my heart to see these gems written about again.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
Next up is the 6207 Southern Ry short gondola produced from ’83 to ’85. It only came in one cataloged set, the 1353 Southern Streak, and one un-cataloged set, the Lionel Kiddie City 1362 Lionel Live Express (’83 only). Given the limited production this is the hardest short gondola on the cheap classic list to find. Fortunately its price doesn’t match its rarity, buyable at a cheap classic price of around $10. This is my favorite short gondola, I think it looks great, and it’s much easier for a diesel or steam engine to pull compared to post-war 6012/6112 short gondolas.
The 1353 Southern Streak was a gold mine of cheap classic rolling stock. In addition to the 6207 Southern Ry short gondola it included the 7902 Santa Fe 8” boxcar, 6115 Southern Ry 2 bay hopper, and 6486 Southern SP style caboose (to be featured in the fourth installment of cheap classics). Unfortunately the steam engine, while not bad looking was one of the bottom of the line DC only models. I picked up a set very cheap because someone had sprayed the engine and tender a glossy black. Using dull coat I was able to make both look somewhat better. I then tried installing a full bridge rectified to be able to run the engine on my conventional AC powered layout. This modification worked well, but provided only stop or forward control. I next tried a Dallee universal 4 amp E-unit. (I know, I know the cost of the E-unit at $44.95 is way out of proportion to the value of this steam engine, but sometimes the fun of model trains is trying stuff, so in this regard I got my money’s worth.) This E-unit was easy to install and fit within the available space. The end result is the conversion of a DC to AC powered steam engine that has neutral, forward and reverse capability. I only wish it was the original green color!
On a historical note, Lionel Kiddie City Stores were the last vestige of the original Lionel Corporation. They were forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the early ‘90’s. After being unsuccessful in arranging further financing, Lionel Corporation was dissolved. The Lionel trade mark had previously been sold to LTI in the late 80’s.
The next short gondola released by MPC from 79 to 82 was the 9340 Illinois Central Gulf. It was part of the 1960 Midnight Flyer set in each of those years. It came with 3 yellow canisters in that set. It was also part of 4 un-cataloged sets. It’s easily found at a cheap classic price under $10.
The 9033 Penn Central followed the 9032 Southern Pacific. Initial produced from ‘76 to ’78 it reappeared again in 82, un-cataloged in ‘86, cataloged again from ’87 to ’90, and making a last un-cataloged appearance in ‘92. It was included as part of an astonishing 14 different sets and included in several Rolling Stock Assortments (RSA) making it a very common car easily found at a cheap price. The later production version had iron sintered wheels and trucks attached by a metal rivet.
I'd love to find a yellow Republic Steel long gondola. I saw one at a show in the last year for $30-$40. One was just on EBay in a group. I missed that one.
MPC got a late start producing the short (8”) gondola. Their first effort was the 9031 Nickel Plate first produced in ’73. Missing the first 2 years of MPC production certainly cut-down on variations. The 9031 continued to be produced in ’74, ’75, ’82, ’83 and un-cataloged from ’84 to ’91. It never came with a load (I couldn’t help adding a couple of white canisters). It appeared in 10 different sets but was never a separate sale item or included in a rolling stock assortment. The un-cataloged sets were sold by Sears and Toys-R-Us. It’s very easy to find at a cheap classic price.
The 9031 is a straight re-issue of the postwar 6142 short gondola. The only variation is whether the molded in brake wheel is big or small. Note the number of grab irons at the side ends varies between the big and small brake wheel variation. This variation is a carry-over from the postwar era. While generally not considered a variation, given production spanned both the MPC and LTI eras, this piece of rolling stock can be found with several different trucks.
The earlier body version shown was easily adapted from the original PW molds with simple modifications to the truck mounting area. To cut costs the original 2 screws per metal truck mounting plate were replaced with the bent tab mount. Note the original screw hole bosses still remaining.
It seems logical that the major MPC reworking of the body molds were also for cost cutting reasons, simplifying the truck mounting with a rivet and eliminating the metal sub frames.
Bruce
Unlike the other cars in the cheap classic series (short single dome tank cars, 8” boxcars, short gondolas, and SP style cabooses without lights or windows) the short 2 bay hopper has remained in the Lionel line-up to the present day. Gone are the cheap trucks of the MPC era and the separately applied brake wheel is back. Growing up there were 2 railroads that went through town, the B&M and NYNH&H. So naturally I have a fondness for any Lionel product with either of these road names. So I end this series with a non cheap classic 2 bay hopper, the 26418 B&M built in 2009.
Next post, I’ll start on the cheap classic short gondolas from Michael Connor’s list that appeared in the January 1995 edition of CCT.
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