...and to go along with Gary's comment about jumping in anywhere in Marx history, I thought it would be fun to contrast his excellent Joy Line post with the opposite end of the Marx timeline. As Gary mentioned, Marx sold clockwork trains into the 1970's... I received a 526 set for Christmas, 1972:
To be fair, this is NOT the actual set I received in 1972. I still have my original train - and it runs like a champ - but I played with it very, very hard and it shows it. So, I bought this much nicer set that is still in the original box with key, instruction sheet and packing slip just for nostalgia! As a side note, the price tag is still on the box - it retailed for $4.95.
The clockwork locomotive in the last years of Marx was the not-so-pretty 401. Like most of Marx, there are variations to be collected, and I have yet to get them all. This is the run of the mill black windup:
It is not unusual to find these with various parts broken from the bodies... the cab roofs and pilots were especially prone to breakage when dropped.
Besides the basic black 401 windup, there are gray 401 windups, too:
It may be a bit difficult to see the difference in color from the pictures, but it is readily apparent when they are side-by-side.
In additon to the regular windup 401's that just featured a motor with a bell, there is also a rare version of the 401 that has the "Mother's Nightmare" mechanical puffer bulb - the windup motor has a flap that pumps a rubber bulb attached inside the shell to the smokestack. It would puff baking soda out the stack as it ran, making a nice mess for mom to clean up! I don't have an example of the 401 puffer, but I do have a 400 with the puffer bulb that I will post later.
Also, 401's were sold that were powered by two onboard "D" cell batteries:
Note the lack of siderods, which seems to be typical of 401 battery engines. However, the giveaway for a Marx onboard battery locomotive is the switch on the top - it moves side to side instead of front to back like a clockwork. Also, the lever is made out of a fiber or bakelight type material, while a clockwork lever is metal.
Back to the clockwork 401 - if you remember the previous post about the Green CV, I showed the underside which had a cover over the mechanism. That cover was quickly discontinued, and no further Marx windups had a cover UNTIL the very last. The gray 401 has a cover over the underside of the mechanism, while the rest of my mechanical 401's (yes, I have several... it's a sickness) do not:
As you can see, the upper gray 401 has the cover, the lower black 401 does not. Unlike the CV's motor cover - which was easily removeable - the 401's cover is crimped into place and is more difficult to remove. I imagine that this was part of the 1972 safety act that was mentioned before... and although I was a curious child who tended to explore the moving parts of my toys, I don't remember ever getting injured by my Marx 401's open mechanism...
- James
tjl0824 We've moved on to 7 inch I see! ...
We've moved on to 7 inch I see! ...
i sure hope people feel free to jump anywhere into the ~50 years of Marx history with trains or even backtrack to cover anything interesting. no editors other than yourself in forums, ...yay(?)
speaking of which, i corrected a few ambiguities in the Joy Line post. the only thing about this forum that bothers me is the inability to actually upload a picture. if Comcast decides to pull the same stunt that Cox did and remove user web space, everything i've posted to date will go *poof*.
fun stuff...! cheers...gary
since James contributed the clockwork version of the 1950's Meteor locomotive, it might be worth mentioning that, when running wind-ups for the public, i generally get the idea most people think that when electric motors came into existence, clockworks went out the door. but they are usually surprised to hear that clockwork sets persisted into the early 1970's, and even then it actually took an act of congress with the Consumer Product Safety Act (1972) to put an end to yet another traditional childhood pastime.
it was never a matter of technology, but of cost. without a third rail, a transformer (a big chunk of iron then, not like the modern switching supplies of today), and having a less expensive motor; clockwork sets were typically less than half the cost of a similar electric set. of course, as collectables these days, condition far outweighs the original sticker price and just off the top of my head i can think of more clockwork than electrics that are likely near the top of most Marxist's wish lists.
one of those which i was extremely lucky to find at a bargain price, was not even a Marx product. in 1927, The Girard Model Works of Girard, PA started making toy floor trains (later including a small circle of track) selling them over the counter at department stores. in 1928, Louis Marx, already a giant in the toy industry, started selling Girard's 'The Joy Line' trains on commission. it was this relationship with the company concluding in the outright purchase of a depression-hit Model Works in 1934 that usually blurs the line of where collecting Marx really starts. there were surely pieces that were out of production by 1934, but quite a bit of leftover Joy Line stock was sold by Marx those first years.
#350 The Joy Line loco & #351 "Koal Kar" tender
one of the first Joyline pieces was the #350 clockwork loco paired with the #351 "Koal Kar" tender, both sporting very colorful litho detail, but with by far one of the worst spring drives in history. to paraphrase a well-known Marx collector, even if it's poorly formed flanges held the track, it rarely made more than a single loop around a 19" circle and could barely pull even a single add-on car. ads for this loco were seen as late as 1930, but this was surely one of the first pieces to leave the market being replaced by a stronger, but much less charming, cast iron model.
The Joy Line Electric Train Set - (note: 200 5th Ave also being the Marx NYC headquarters)
the next generation locomotive was the first practical power offered that could not only hold the rails, but along with the more commonly seen upgraded clockwork motor version (102), an electric motor locomotive was also offered for the first time by Girard.
(101) Joyline electric locomotive w/ headlight & (351) small tender
and if you're lucky enough to come across a complete electric set, you should also find another desirable piece...
Girard Power House transformer
the colorful Girard Power House enclosed a center tapped transformer with a simple control that essentially gave the operator two speeds (voltages) to choose from, (...likely too slow and not fast enough!). i left some of the original cord & plug in the picture (which i'll never replace) to give you an idea of the scale. i must admit, until i saw one in person, i always thought this was a much larger piece, but if it's really a multistory building, i'd say it is closer to N scale.
the Joy Line freight cars and caboose, following the lead of the #351 "Koal Kar" all had somewhat whimsical names...
#355 "Hobo Rest" Boxcar; #354 "Contractor Dump Car" - (early blue frame versions)
the first Joy Line cars rode on distinctive blue frames and had very light gauge metal tab/ slot couplers.
(356) "Eagle Eye Caboose", (352) "Venice Gondola" & #353 "Everful Tank Car"
later version freight cars kept the same upper bodies but the frames and couplers changed to a slightly heavier gauge with a longer wheelbase design in black. as with the boxcar roof and doors, solid car pieces such as the caboose roof and tank car dome and ends can be found in colors not pictured here.
similarly, the earliest Joy Line passenger cars sat on the early blue frame with a distinctively different yellow roof than the more common roof adopted when the frames changed to the same style as the later freight cars.
#357 Joy Line coach, #458 observation car w/ red roofs; #458 obsv w/ lighted drumhead.
normally seen in orange, the red roof version passenger cars turn up occasionally. unlike the lithographed sides of the Joy Line coaches, the solid color roofs and frames are not difficult to disassemble and refinish. finding consistent wear is a good indication of an original piece. greatly worn sides with perfectly finished roofs and/ or frames would be a very red flag to me.
the #458 lighted drumhead observation is a highly sought after variation. be aware that reproduction drumheads have been made in the past.
Joy Line (left) vs. Marx (1935) wheel sets.
another check for a completely original Joy Line piece is looking closely at the wheels and axles. Joy Line wheels are noticeably larger and slightly more crudely made than even the first generation of Marx tinplate wheels shown above. also unlike the first Marx cars, later Joy Line wheel sets (black frame cars) should be crimped on the axle on both sides of the wheel, not just the inside, which greatly helped to keep the wheels in gauge on the slightly wide Joy Line frames. both these unique qualities of Joy Line are hard to pick up from typical auction pictures, but definitely effect the value if not original.
the final locomotive design from Girard, likely influenced by Marx, was the pressed steel model...
(104) clockwork loco w/ battery headlight & torpedo nose, (351) long tender
(106) electric and (105) clockwork locomotives
with the mixture of red or black for boiler and frame along with other varying detail finishes, not to mention being available as either a clockwork or electric model, there are likely more different versions of this Joy Line/ Marx locomotive than any other in the company's history.
1934 was definitely a pivotal year for Marx. with the acquisition of the Girard manufacturing plant and the last of the Joy Line inventory being sold off, Marx could finally get down to business and start putting his own unique signature on the toy train market.
cheers...gary
We've moved on to 7 inch I see! Not much to cover here. Since there were only 4 different freight cars, and a handful of cabooses, there isn't much to collect. However, there is quite a few different numbers for car, allowing a "variation nut" to literally go nuts buying them all.
As soon as I find where I misplaced my camera, I will post pictures of my lone 7 inch set.
Trevor
Awesome Dave!!!!!
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
In case you missed it, here is my portable Marx windup layout with 6" tinplate cars.
I have found the simple joy in playing with old windup Marx trains. Like many of us who have windup trains, we end up operating them on our electric train layouts. But wouldn't it be great to have a small dedicated windup layout complete with mechanical windup accessories. I don't have room for another layout and windup trains are enjoyed as an occasional diversion for short periods of time, so I came up with the perfect solution to my problem.....a portable case that will easily folds out into a layout on any small table (or on the floor) and will store all the trains and layout accessories. And it can all be compactly stored away when finished. Although I am not finished with the layout, here are photos and video of the basic idea.
http://youtu.be/5XrUaxeDLLs
Another example of the 994, this one a reversing clockwork:
Again, note that the drivers and motor sideplates are black instead of plated, typical of postwar Marx. Also, note the brake/reverse lever has the tell-tale bend that lets us know at a glance it is a reversing windup motor. As Gary pointed out in his previous post, this version has the domes pressed in as part of the body, as opposed to the seperate domes on the deluxe version.
I don't collect 7" tin; but I did want to have a couple of pieces for my 994 to pull around the layout:
Nothing rare; just a Wabash gondola and Nickel Plate caboose with Slot & Tab couplers. It sure does make a nice looking train on the layout, and the reversing clockwork motor can be fun, too!
rack776 I love the Disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set, ...
I love the Disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set, ...
the 994 Meteor locomotive in your set is essentially the same shell used for the Disney model, but various modifications occurred over the years. the 0-4-0 drive was the same as any other Marx loco, but dummy wheels were added to the embossed frame to visually help stretch out the small motor. the 994 came as both electric and clockwork versions. the red painted shell is less common and when coupled to the red Nickel Plate Tender, it becomes one of the most sought after combinations.
Marx #994 locomotive
pictured above is what might be called the deluxe version. most notably, the number '994' actually appears under the cab windows which is rare. other items that may or may not have appeared were the headlight, headlight hood and handrails. also note that this version has separate pieces for the domes whereas the Disney model and some later 994's had the domes pressed into the boiler shell itself.
Marx 994 - 898 comparison
but the whole point of the 994 was size. here it is alongside a companion Marx loco, the (898). at 10¼" coupled to the extra length of a 7" tender, it essentially did its job in that Unique Arts went out of the O gauge train business the following year. by the early 1950's that new-fangled material called plastic was coming into use, however, and the late-comer, sheet metal #994 only saw a few years of production.
I love the disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set,
I'd love to post some photos of it but I do not have any luck keeping my photos in the free photo bucket type accounts (they always seem to dissapear) and I stink at .html code, would anyone like me to email them photos of my Marx set to post on here, is there an easy way to post photos here?
By the way If anyone is interested in a set there has been a guy at the Allentown PA train meet with one of those Disney Sets for that last 3 years, It must be priced high or does not appeal to the highrail crowd arround here. Next show is in November and the vendor is usually near the middle of the big room near the snack bar, any one know who that might be?
Love those Disney windups. I've been trying to get my hands on a set for years.
i thought i'd get around to photographing more 7" Marx, but couldn't track down the B&O set so that'll be another day. i did want to wrap up the Monon and KCS sub-thread so here are those 7" vans.
#3855 - 7" Monon caboose
both came as only 4-wheel versions and i've never seen anything but the plastic knuckle coupler on the Monon caboose which only came as #3855 ...
#966 - 7" Kansas City Southern caboose
...but there were 15 different numbers for the KCS version; 966 through 980. this is an error that has been in the Greenberg Price Guides forever; stating the lowest number in the series to be #969. it also puts this model in line with the similar B&O and NYC versions which both also had 15 numbers. the plastic knuckle coupler seems to be more common on the KCS caboose, but i have seen at least one example with a tab coupler.
the Marx 7" line may well have been the oddest niche in the company's history. brought out in haste to compete with 1949's Unique Arts train sets which claimed to be the largest O gauge trains on the market, this line also included the very popular Disney train. Authorized by Walt Disney Productions and only offered in a clockwork form, this one was just for fun.
starting with Mickey on the smokebox front, this colorful set was litho'ed with many Disney characters.
engineer Donald Duck looks to be in control (or maybe just keeping an eye on the nephews?) and on the fIreman's side, Mickey definitely appears distracted by Minnie while Goofy better hang on to the cab roof. the (994) Meteor locomotive with clockwork motor featured the 'sparkling' drive; the cars were all 4-wheel with tab & slot couplers.
keeping the side themes consistent, Mickey and Donald appear again on the tender along with whom i can best guess as Bashful keeping watch from the tender deck.
the #1476 boxcar featured Dumbo, José Carioca & Figaro among others...
while the gondola sported Jiminy Cricket, Pluto, Thumper & four more dwarfs; Happy, Grumpy, Dopey & Doc. unusual for Marx, the Disney set litho was their only complete train to have different graphics on each car side.
bringing up the rear was the #691521 Disney caboose. this one has always had me stumped. i definitely recognize the side with Pinocchio, Daisy Duck & Pluto (acting the typical dog part with head out the window) as well as the roof with Bambi, Flower and possibly Dumbo's friend Timothy Mouse(?), but i've never been able to ID the numbered side characters, ...the bears? ...anyone?
new Marx, Ameritrains, reissued a similar O gauge set, but in a slightly smaller size, in the 90's as an electric motor version.
Very nice, David! Fortunately there are a lot of common, black, beat-up CV's out there for restoration or customization. Here is a great example of a customized CV... a dual CV made from two CV shells welded together. Wish I had thought of it! I would love to make a clockwork version someday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMkx1Vy5UmE
dsmith Old Commodore Vanderbilt engines are asking to be customized.
Old Commodore Vanderbilt engines are asking to be customized.
well, i'm not sure old Cornelius would agree with your choice of a slightly competitive mid-west roadname, but to comment on customization in general, there certainly are plenty of Marx restoration or repaint candidates out there; the most amazing part being that 9 out of 10 times the bullet-proof Marx drive is still functional.
however, as James has been discussing in his CV series, there are a few models i might hesitate to touch in any condition (eg: original green or silver (or frankly anything other than black), swing peg coupler versions, etc). perhaps true for anything old, not only trains, ...get a second and third opinion first, before you remove any original finish.
nice job on the model, by the way, ...any coaches? cheers...gary
to complete my post started with the Seaboard diesel, the other two Marx F-M types were the Monon and Kansas City Southern.
#81 Monon - large motor (gray pilot) and small motor (black pilot) electrics
the Monon and KCS diesels both came as large or small motor electrics.
#54 Kansas City Southern - large (left) and small motor electrics
based only on the one example i have of each, unlike both the Monon or Seaboard small motor version, the KCS model had both a headlight lens in place backed by a bulb & socket attached to the motor mount.
KCS small motor w/ mounted headlight
typical large motor used in F-M models w/ headlight and reverse unit
the large motors all had double reduction gearing which allows these models to run on most trackwork.
(82) Monon 4-wheel dummy B w/ plastic knuckle coupler
both the Monon and KCS also had two types of B units. the 4-wheel version came with the Marx dummy plastic knuckle coupler...
(55) KCS 8-wheel dummy B w/ plastic automatic tilt coupler
and the 8-wheel version with an auto coupler. when included in sets, these B units opened up the possibilities to couple to and pull just about any Marx consist of the day, from 4 wheel tin or plastic to deluxe 8 wheel sets.
#54 KCS 4-wheel dummy A unit
dummy A units were also made in both roadnames.
#81 Monon w/ clockwork drive
unlike the KCS, however, the Monon did come in a clockwork motor version; like the small electric motor, with the distinctive black frame pieces. the large electric motor model of both roadnames is by far the most commonly seen version, though.
#31055 Monon 6" caboose
#5563 KCS 6" caboose
with most prototypes typically painted in boring red or brown, Marx didn't let the tinplate crowd down with these matching livery cabooses, either. unlike the Seaboard roadname, the Monon and KCS each also had a 7" caboose in these same colors to match up with appropriate consists.
while i was snapping pictures the other evening, i came across a very familiar box...
(#348) Right-O-Way Railroad Signs
a few plastic versions of Marx railroad signs followed later, but this was the only metal set.
is there anyone out there who doesn't have at least one of these sign posts somewhere on their layout or stashed away in an old set box? yup, they're Marx.
fun stuff...gary
As odd as it might sound to use multiple clockwork drives in a train, it does work very good. Like Gary said, using two clockwork motors more than doubles the tractive effort - I chalk this up to the fact that Marx windups are very sensitive to slick spots in the track, since they only pull with one axle. When they are loaded to their limit, it isn't unusual to see them alternately slip and grip, with the train stalling when it slips (naturally). By using multiple clockwork motors, usually one axle will be pulling even when another is slipping, keeping the train moving until the slipping motor regains traction. As exhibit "A", take a look at my 1203 Triplex pulling 29 cars:
watch?v=U96L1YcuI4o
The 1203 was kitbashed from 2 Marx 401 windups, with a third 401 windup motor in the tender. A stock 401 struggles to move 7 cars around the same track, which would only equal 21 cars for the 1203. Granted, the 1203 has a bit of extra weight, but not enough on the drivers to make up an extra 8 cars... and the 1203 would pull more, if I had a bigger loop and enough cars to do it.
Of course, I like to double-head the windup Commodore Vanderbilts, too:
watch?v=KsKg5mv0 nc
Speaking of CV's, let's take a look at a couple of postwar clockwork Vandys. First up is a black postwar CV:
The black drivers and motor sideplates are a postwar giveaway. Until about 1947 or '48, the drivers would have been nickel plated, and the motor sideplates either bare metal or plated. Also, note that this model doesn't have any siderods - a further cost cutting measure on the cheapest of train sets. CVs can be found with or without siderods.
Next up is a Red Flyer from 1947 or '48:
Sears and Wards both sold "Red Flyer" clockwork trainsets in 1947 - '48. A red clockwork CV headed up a train consisting of a red 551 tender, two passenger cars and an observation. In 1948, the set only came with one passenger car instead of two, but still had the observation. I have seen the Red Flyer windups with both the nickel plated drivers (like this one) and black drivers, lending further evidence to the black drivers being introduced either late '47 or '48. Unlike the Red whistling CV sold by Sears pre-war, these CVs came with the normal sparking motor - no whistle.
Just a couple more notes: Marx apparently did not produce trains from 1943 to 1945 due to WWII. I believe that the prewar, bottom of the line CV with the simple body is identical to the CVs produced immediately postwar until the drivers and motor changed from nickel to black. As far as I can tell from period advertisements, the mechanical CV wasn't sold after 1948.
There are other details that I haven't covered about the CVs, but we have pretty much hit the highlights up to now. There are a lot of other Marx mechanical locomotives to cover, but none with as many variations as the CV!
aside from a few electric outline locomotives, almost all my motive power is steam EXCEPT for Marx tin. known as the Erie-built, FM types, in the late 1950's Marx produced three roadnames that proved to be very versatile, not to mention extremely colorful.
photographing tinplate is never a certainty for me, so to make sure things turned out well, i only shot the Seaboard livery today, but will follow up shortly with Monon and the beautiful Kansas City Southern models.
#4000 Seaboard diesel
it would be hard to come up with a better example than this Seaboard powered A and dummy unit to show that by this point in their history, Marx was truly the master of litho graphics. at a casual glance, its hard to convince your mind that you're actually looking at a practically smooth metal shape.
Greenberg lists five different versions of the Seaboard diesel, but i have yet to find a large electric motor version.
the small electric motor version is easy to spot as it is mounted with screws located just in front of the SEABOARD roadname.
Small A/C motor
as you can see in this picture, the small motor unfortunately includes a flange-mounted drive gear and as with many large motor Marx locomotives, this one also suffers derailments when run through guard-rail protected switches and crossovers.
#4000 Seaboard diesel w/ clockwork motor
clockwork Seaboard diesels seem to be the most widely seen in sets and with the standard square keyed Marx drive, the middle left side porthole was designed to line up perfectly with the motor. of course, using the same form-fit, if you can ignore the physical differences (key hole and brake slot openings) of the clockwork unit, a standard Marx electric motor also with the low mounting screws, would work just as well in this shell.
#4000 dummy A unit
often coupled to a powered A unit, the 4-wheel dummy A was the most popular set add-in.
(4001) dummy B unit
...but much less often seen in the Seaboard livery, was the (4001) dummy B.
unlike the Monon and KCS passenger sets which included the standard red 6" passenger consist, the Seaboard livery had matching green livery coaches (which i'll get to at a later date), but alternately for freight trains, a colorful 6" Seaboard caboose was available to bring up the rear.
#956 Seaboard Air Lines caboose ...tempted to grab those handrails?
one great benefit of the low cost and general availability of Marx is satisfying the need to experiment at times without too much consequence. taking a drill and file to a C6+ condition dummy A unit, i did a little experimenting with an A-A clockwork powered consist.
custom built powered 'dummy' A unit
purely from observation it seemed as though coupling two clockwork drives in the same consist more than doubles the pulling capacity of a single motor. i have a feeling James might chime in on this matter knowing he has also dabbled in the area of multiple coupled clockwork drives. cheers...gary
I noticed that nothing has come up about prewar 6 inch cars with 8-wheel trucks yet, so since they're my favorite series, I'll bring it up. They came in two ways, either with tab-and-slot couplers, or automatic one-way couplers.
The trucks are shown on the car in the top of the picture, and the unique couplers are demonstrated as well (they are known as "one-way" couplers for obvious reasons). They were most commonly headed by a Canadian Pacific steamer in sets, but other engines such the 897 were used as well. I have only seen cars with automatic couplers in sets, but cars with tab-and-slot couplers may have been sold in sets as well.
I have also never seen a Commodore Vanderbilt with 8-wheel cars in a boxed set, but as the saying goes, "never say never", maybe someone will prove me wrong. I do not have a very complete collection of these cars, so I will leave the task of posting pictures of them to someone else who does (I did, however, include my 3000 in the "intro" picture on page 1)
If you would like to see more of the catalog above, it is found here:
http://marxtinplatetrains.com/marx_paper.htm
IDM1991 I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC. The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 "Jubilee" locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have. The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer's outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor's "van," as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/jubilee.htm
I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC. The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 "Jubilee" locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have. The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer's outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor's "van," as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/jubilee.htm
there were certainly some holes in the Marx product lines. although CP and PA tenders existed, they never made vans (i like that term, especially in the plural form) for those roads. in a similar but reverse situation, in the Marx 3/16" scale, they made both a Reading and an NYC caboose, but never made a Reading tender (though a friend made a quite believable one for me). in the case of freight trains, with the NYC caboose so prevalent, the NYC wedge tender was usually the set choice, especially since the locomotives, albeit dead ringers for the CP types, were essentially unmarked and only numbered, 3000, in a few versions. although at best it only came as a 2-4-2, at least Marx got the # of drive wheels right on their Canadian Pacific types. i also have a feeling Marx chose this locomotive for the ease in building a formed metal model very close to a prototype. with a simple, straight boiler and streamlined shrouding to cover normally detailed areas i think Marx really captured the essence of this locomotive in a simple, beautiful design. and with practically interchangeable parts making various cab, boiler, sideboard, pilot, smokebox, stack and dome variations, there may be more of these types than anyone might care to collect. thanks for the link to those pictures. that truly was a sharp looking class! cheers...gary
tjl0824 What's wrong with using the die-cast 3991 tenders that came with the engines?
What's wrong with using the die-cast 3991 tenders that came with the engines?
i do have an issue with the diecast tender, but with that comment, i was just considering that you already had the (951) tender and the #333 loco is often up for sale as a single piece. the (3991) diecast tender is (at least from the two examples i have) a dog, however. it is an overly heavy tender sitting on just about the worst wheel-axle-journal design of all Marx creations. about ½ of the #333's power is used merely hauling this tender around.
you're right that i should have mentioned the #21 Santa Fe diesels as also pulling D-truck scale cars as well as the #666 loco which, since it sits slightly higher, was often coupled to wedge tenders sporting D-trucks, also.
i'm not much of a Marx plastic fan, and i know there are also various plastic cars with D-trucks, but i'll leave that for comment by someone more knowledgeable.
http://www.wishbookweb.com/
http://www.wishbookweb.com/1952_Sears_Christmas/pages/1952%20Sears%20Christmas%20book%20page270.htm
the Wishbook site is a great Marx reference site!
Excellent Work!
What a great thread! Thanks for starting it and thanks to all of the folks who are contributing to it. What I know about Marx trains would fit in something smaller than a 6" box car. I am looking forward to learning from this thread and from the folks who are posting. I appreciate learning about other manufacturers in this great hobby that we share. I have a feeling I will be asking questions here, and as someone else said I think this thread may cause me to dig into my train fund for something other than American Flyer trains.
Please keep up the good work and keep those photos, stories and videos coming. This thread is one that I check first each time that I log on!
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
Greg
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
The fact that Marx only had a few different designs for motors is something I definitely take advantage of. Since the 400 and 490 are extremely common engines, and feature the double reduction motors, they can be bought cheap for parts, especially the ones with broken shells. The best use I find for them is putting those motors into wind-up engines with busted coils. That way, both are cheap because no one wants to pay a lot for an engine with a broken shell, or a wind-up engine that doesn't wind up.
When I come across the 3/16 scale cars with D-trucks, it's usually a set headed by Santa Fe 21's or plastic F-7 diesels. In my opinion, cars with D-trucks aren't really 3/16 scale even though the bodies are, because the trucks appear to be half the height of the car. I'm still trying to hunt down a 333 with the gray NYC passenger cars.
overlandflyer an even more practical solution to your layout problem (the double reduction #999 not being very common) would be to substitute a Marx #333 to head up your scale consist. all #333 motors inherently have the double reduction gearing and look perfectly reasonable in front of the same (951) wedge tender.
an even more practical solution to your layout problem (the double reduction #999 not being very common) would be to substitute a Marx #333 to head up your scale consist. all #333 motors inherently have the double reduction gearing and look perfectly reasonable in front of the same (951) wedge tender.
Well, I think I've discovered the first problem with this thread... Trevor and Gary's posts have convinced me that I need to find a Marx 3/16" scale tank car to go with my Dad's set! Ya'll are going to cost me some money, aren't you?
tjl0824 On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? ...
On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? ...
Trevor, you need to give this string a chance. the prewar Flyer post is up to about 70 pages while this Marx topic is barely getting started. i have a feeling that before long you will pick up more information here than can ever be garnered from a single author article.
3/16" scale Marx is a great niche to collect because as you state, there aren't very many different types and none are exceptionally rare.
Marx B-type truck (left) and D-type truck (right) coupler height comparison.
one thing to watch for if you are collecting these cars is that most were offered with not only the scale B-type truck, but also what is commonly known as 'high' or D-type trucks. they can couple, but the cars mounted on D trucks ride noticeably about ¼" higher.
for a little more variety than just being pulled by the usual #999 and wedge tender, these high truck cars were used in the B&O & SP diesel sets for a better appearance. it is clearly evident that Marx researched their graphics and numbers.
there are a few ways you can get around the single reduction motor problem. most #999s have that motor, but not all...
Marx #999 w/ double reduction motor
this late version of the Marx #999 was not found in 3/16" scale sets, but it will negotiate contemporary track switches and crossovers. this locomotive can be recognized by the distinctive Marx logo on the cab rather than its usual place on the side of the smoke box.
and as i mentioned earlier in this post, many Marx motors are virtually interchangeable so for operations, i typically remove and save the original motor but have a number of double reduction spares from later models that i can swap into M10005 bodies to also give them the ability to run on modern track.
fun stuff! cheers...gary
On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? I'd love to see a full article about Marx, or even just something in the Collectable Classics section. I've noticed that they have also been recycling pictures from old articles in the Photo Album section of the magazine, so I plan to set up some trains and send in a picture of it.
Aside from 6 inch, I have recently gotten into collecting 3/16 scale. I don't have much, but enough to take a picture of.
I'm sure someone else will top this in an instant though. My favorite part about 3/16 scale is that they are very realistic, and still lithographed tin. Plus, there is only a handful of cars, and very few are hard to come by, so I can say I have a complete collection of it with little money spent.
I have one thing say about single reduction motors: . I have to have a separate layout to run my Marx trains on, because they won't run through the Lionel switches on my Lionel layout. I do have one loop without switches on the Lionel layout, but Marx trains look lost amongst massive Lionel accessories and they disappear when passed by a string of larger O gauge freight cars. Good thing 027 track fits almost anywhere, I set up a small layout on my old kitchen table.
Here's both my layouts in operation
Marx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcx1CZmLchM&feature=plcp
Lionel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZ4-Ks3f7Y&feature=plcp
Gary, congratulations on getting the Berk chassis running on air... it is certainly a major milestone, and I always breathe a sigh of relief at that point! It takes a lot of effort & resources just to see the drivers make the first revolution by themselves.
Neat boxes, Marx had some wonderful artwork in the early years. I don't have many boxes in my collection, so I always enjoy seeing pictures of them.
Now to continue on with Clockwork CV's - I hope all of you Marx fans find this somewhat interesting, I'll try to keep this as brief as possible...
Sometime in 1938 or '39, Marx simplified the body for the clockwork Commodore Vanderbilts. Basically, they went from two domes to just one and left off the handrails. This is a bit more involved than just leaving stuff off an existing locomotive; it used a different stamping for the CV body that doesn't have the mounting holes for the handrails or 2nd dome. The first artwork I have seen depicting the plain body is in the 1939 Ward's catalog on p. 73. The change to the plain body happened at or about the same time as the change from 10 spoke diecast drivers to the 7 spoke stamped drivers. As a side note, Marx changed from the screw-in key to the square key before going to the plain body CV. At any rate, here are three types of pre-war windup CV's with the plain body:
On the left is the bottom of the line mechanical CV w/ ringing bell & sparking motor, next is a plain body w/ reversing windup motor, and finally on the right is a whistling windup CV. Reversing windup CV's were available from 1936 to 1940; I haven't seen any evidence that they were produced after '40, although Marx made other reversing clockwork locomotives postwar. The only advertisement for a windup whistling CV I have seen is in the 1942 Sears Christmas catalog p. 86. Marx offered clockwork whistling Mercury's postwar, but they use a slightly different mechanism.
There are a couple of details to point out between the regular and reversing clockwork CV's:
The regular CV on the left has an open stack so the sparks can shoot out, while the reversing CV on the right has a closed stack. Earlier reversers may have used the open stack; the closed stack isn't depicted in period advertising until '40. Also, the regular CV's brake lever is straight, while the reversing CV's brake lever is bent over - I assume the bent lever makes it easier to shift from forward to reverse.
I'll probably make one more post about the windup postwar CV's later in the week, and that will cover the major mechanical CV variations. While I am obviously preoccupied with the windups, I look forward to seeing & learning more from you guys about the rest of Marx's trains!
JamesP Gary, if I am remembering right, aren't you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer? ..
Gary, if I am remembering right, aren't you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer? ..
i will admit i'm acting more as the general contractor, but yes, i'm working on getting a Jim Kreider design, 1½" scale Berkshire on the rails optimistically by late 2013. just passed the first major milestone of running on air with quite a bit of work already done on the boiler, so thing are progressing well.
as an operator, i might consider us both as enthusiastic, but i've seen your "project" locomotives, James, and hands down you win on that basis. ....of course if i ever get a backyard, watch out!
one project i keep pushing back is getting a large photo booth constructed so i can get a good solid background for some complete train shots, but it seems like whenever i get a space cleared out, some other project creeps into the 'picture' and claims the real estate. i will try to get a picture of at least the components to that M10000. you can probably tell by the condition of the motor that the train is in fantastic condition.
for now, how about a few boxtops, the first being that early M10000...
early M10000 box - red clockwork set
this is one of my favorite Marx graphics taking advantage of both the newly introduced M10000 alongside a Commodore Vanderbilt. with just a touch of artistic license. certainly a bit more detailed than the followup...
M10005 set box - green/ cream clockwork set
which contained a later, but still prewar, M10005 clockwork set. i wonder who retired from their art department? unfortunately, postwar saw a lot less graphic detail on Marx box tops, though once in a while, a classic would pop-up.
7350 Cape Canaveral Missile Express Train
i have very little plastic Marx, but growing up at the start of the space age, this set appealed to me. if someone doesn't beat me to the punch, i'll photo and post pictures of the train soon. i have the 4-wheel, diesel powered version, but the set also came with 8-wheel cars and alternately with a standard #490 locomotive coupled to a special "Missile Express" red tender.
some early Marx boxes did take a dual role resembling a factory or warehouse that could be placed right on the layout, but that's a story for another time.
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