Classic Toy Trains Forums - Lionel vs. American Flyer

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Classic Toy Trains Forums - Lionel vs. American Flyer
Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:01 AM

I am sick of opening up threads on the CTT forum with words such as track, couplers, transformers, switches, etc. only to find that the thread relates to Lionel.  Doesn't anyone out there own American Flyer?  Of course we do.  But to get the proper attention, we always have to add the words American Flyer somewhere in our title.  Model railroading discrimination!

The byline for the CTT forum reads: "Interested in O gauge, S gauge, and Standard gauge toy trains? Are you a fan of Lionel, MTH, American Flyer, and other brands of toy trains made today and in the past? If so, the Classic Toy Trains Toy train operating and collecting forum is just for you".

How hard would it be to subdivide the CTT forum into three parts: O gauge, S gauge, and Standard gauge.  I volunteer to do the necessary programming.

Now I realize that other scales are sometimes combined like the MRR forums where HO gauge and N gauge do not have their own subdivision.  However, the issue as between those two gauges are similar.  The manufacturers of both scales are often the same.  O gauge and S gauge come from different manufacturers, and the issues are usually completely different.

Can we hear from the American Flyer collectors?  How do you Lionel guys feel about this?

Rich

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Posted by cwburfle on Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:23 AM

I am one of those folks that prefer to see less seperation, not more. While I am primariliy a Lionel guy, I have some flyer, and do know more than a little about them.
If threads are started on the main board about Flyer, I am very likely to look at them, and perhaps make a comment.
If a seperate Flyer board is created, I probably will never go to it.

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Posted by stebbycentral on Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:37 AM

I don't see an issue here.  It's not that hard to label a thread "AF" or "Flyer", and if I don't see those words I just assume the thread is for another scale.  I think the people who are REALLY getting discriminated against are the scale modelers in O and S.  They truly seem to have no place to post.  They are certainly not categorized under "Toy Trains", and the larger scales are almost never mentioned in the MRR forums.  A point raised only recently in the other forum by a fellow On30 modeler.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:07 AM

cwburfle

I am one of those folks that prefer to see less seperation, not more. While I am primariliy a Lionel guy, I have some flyer, and do know more than a little about them.
If threads are started on the main board about Flyer, I am very likely to look at them, and perhaps make a comment.


If a separate Flyer board is created, I probably will never go to it.

Even though you own some American Flyer stuff?  Geez, that doesn't seem to be a reasonable stance.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:10 AM

stebbycentral

I don't see an issue here.  It's not that hard to label a thread "AF" or "Flyer", and if I don't see those words I just assume the thread is for another scale.  I think the people who are REALLY getting discriminated against are the scale modelers in O and S.  They truly seem to have no place to post.  They are certainly not categorized under "Toy Trains", and the larger scales are almost never mentioned in the MRR forums.  A point raised only recently in the other forum by a fellow On30 modeler.

stebby,

That's my point.  You have to title the thread to include the words American Flyer.  As it is now, you have to plow through innumerable threads only to discover each time that the issue relates to Lionel.  Maybe if all of those Lionel threads included the word Lionel in the title, it wouldn't be an issue, but that is not the case.

Rich

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Posted by Bob Keller on Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:37 AM

This topic has come up before, and we're not inclined to subdivide the forum simply because it would divide the participation of the forum into even smaller batches of conversation.

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Posted by Timboy on Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:01 AM

I don't think this forum should be any more divided that it is right now either, because where does it end?  Scale?  Hi-rail? Tin-plate?  Post-war?  Pre-War? Unaltered Vintage? Kit-bashed? AC? DC? DCC?  I simply ignore all posts that don't have some type of American Flyer buzz-word in it's title.  Do I miss some Flyer posts?  Probably.  But that's the way it goes.

Regards,

Timboy 

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Posted by cwburfle on Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:02 AM

]Even though you own some American Flyer stuff?  Geez, that doesn't seem to be a reasonable stance.

See Bob Keller's post.
I don't have enough free time, or American Flyer trains to make it worth my time.
I know quite a bit about HO and N scale Model Railroading too, and own more HO/N than American Flyer. Still, I don't visit boards on the subject either.
There are other things besides trains.

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Posted by mersenne6 on Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:07 AM

I'd say putting AF in the thread title is the easiest solution and it does work. Just look at Northwoods Flyer's thread on Pre-War American Flyer. Ignoring the chat only threads, it has the highest number of views on the CTT forum. 

  Now, if you really want to feel sorry for someone think of those of us looking for threads on things like Bing, Hafner, KBN, Marx, and Moskabel.

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:48 AM

What about us MARX fans?

I think once I got  used to this being one big open forum, I just automaticly add "Marx" to my titles when posting a new thread if I want some specific information re: Marx trains.

Same should go for AF, Lionel, Atlas, or MTH

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Posted by sir james I on Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:22 AM

Whats so hard about adding AF to the thread?.Marx and others are marked when posted. No big deal as is.

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Posted by jmkk on Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:55 AM

If they were separated I might have missed Timboys thread on the rebuilding of his AF layout. That would have been tragic! I know O and S  are different but they are also a lot alike .

Jason   

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Posted by Dominion Atlantic Railway on Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:49 PM

vsmith

What about us MARX fans?

I think once I got  used to this being one big open forum, I just automaticly add "Marx" to my titles when posting a new thread if I want some specific information re: Marx trains.

Same should go for AF, Lionel, Atlas, or MTH

 

  Another Marx fan here.Also like Lionel.

Have some Marx fun today.

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Posted by wyomingscout on Thursday, January 27, 2011 4:39 PM

Seems most are labeled.  Just look:  American Flier layout, Lionel Prewar 244, Atlas 21 Century 0-27, Super 0 dilemma, Lionel 2011 RTR catalog, Lionel 022 switches, Mystery Set (Atlas).

I don't see a problem.

wyomingscout

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Posted by mgbbob on Thursday, January 27, 2011 5:32 PM

Leave it alone.  I like reading all the posts.  If you want to get picky I have prewar and post war.  I have latch couplers and modern couplers.  I just read something on KD couplers.  Half the fun it seeing what is out there.

I have HO, N, O, and Standard.  I wish I had some S and may have some in the future.  More room, and more money..........Not a problem.

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:38 PM

Hey, I am on a major roll.   LOL

I believe that it is now something like 20-0 in favor of leaving everything alone.    Crying   Crying   Crying

I'll fix all of you. Once I take over Kalmbach Publications, I will create a separate Forum for American Flyer.   Laugh    Laugh    Laugh

Rich HO Train

 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:55 PM

I agree, I collect and operate model / toy trains.  If I had the space and money, I'd collect and operate the 1 to 1 scale toys too.

What I really resent is when generalized statements are made about "what kind of forum this is" or "you'd have better luck posting in forum "X" because this forum is mostly..." and stuff like that.  I realize that people are more likely than not just trying to be helpful, but I also realize that human nature is often about making incorrect assumptions.  The term "Classic Toy Train" doesn't refer to any specific era, but a lot of people like to infer that it means only post-war Lionel or pre-war Ives or etc. etc. etc.

I wasn't around until November 6, 1969.  By that time, Lionel wasn't Lionel anymore, Flyer wasn't Gilbert and Ives was long gone.  So the few trains I saw in stores during my youth were MPC (and let's face it, MPC has gotten a bad rap for years).  And since I wasn't around between 1880-whatever when the first toy trains started to be mass produced and the time when Lionel was sold, I have no loyalty to any train manufacturer or scale.

Anyhoo, back to the topic at hand.  When I saw the tiltle of this thread, my first thought was "Ding! Ding! Ding!  It's the grudge match of the CENTURY!  Let's get ready to rummblle!"  It's been going on since Gilbert introduced S-Gauge and it will continue long after we're all dead and buried.  Fact is in the 21st century Lionel owns American Flyer (and Ives) and Lionel isn't owned by the Lionel who made those classic toy trains.  You know, the ones we like to label as "classic" even if they aint so classic.  My 1984 Dodge Aries would be considered a "classic" , if I still had it, simply because it would be more than 25 years old.  But who would really consider a Dodge Aries that ate carborators like potato chips a classic car?  (I had that carb rebuilt at least 7 times in the 4 years I owned the thing!)  Since Ives got rolled into Lionel, and Flyer did too, I guess you could say that Lionel won.  But then you have to remember that Lionel itself capitulated to market forces and the Lionel of today isn't Cowen's company.  So who really won the war?

Nobody.

Lionel, American Flyer, O gauge, S gauge, etc., etc., etc. exist today for one reason.  Because we the collectors (and operators) refuse to let them die.

Becky

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Posted by aflyer on Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:58 PM

I agree with the previous response to this post, I thought we were headed into a who's bigger and better thread.

When I was ten years old it was American Flyer VS Lionel, when I was 20 it was Chevy VS Ford. And now it is old American Flyer VS new American flyer, made by Lionel, S-Helper, American Models, and I can't keep track of them all.

 So IMHO if we all added Flyer or Lionel, S or O, or some other hint in the title it would be a very cool addition.  I think however I would still be inclined to open some O or Lionel threads as there are some shared topics, for us all to enjoy.

Thank you,

AFlyer, I mean George 

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Posted by MichRR714 on Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:04 PM

I agree that the last thing this CTT forum needs is sub-dividing.  How hard is it to just place "AF" or something in the title of the thread?  I really think even bringing something like this up just leads to erosion to civility on the forum.  "discrimination"  I don't think so.

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, January 28, 2011 5:57 AM

MichRR714

I agree that the last thing this CTT forum needs is sub-dividing.  How hard is it to just place "AF" or something in the title of the thread?  I really think even bringing something like this up just leads to erosion to civility on the forum.  "discrimination"  I don't think so.

First of all, given the overall reaction to this thread, I am sorry that I even posted it in the first place.  Obviously, no one agrees with me that a separate area of the CTT forum for American Flyer trains would be welcome.

Second, after raising the white flag of surrender, I was determined not to respond any further to this thread.  But, now, I cannot resist.

Mich says that "the last thing this CTT forum needs is sub-dividing".  Why is that?  The only other forum that is not subdivided is the CT forum and that is because it is devoted to commentary about "classic trains".  Kinda hard to subdivide that topic any further.  But, the Garden Railway forum has 4 subdivisions.  The MRR forum has 5 subdivisions.   The Trains Magazine forum has 6 subdivisions.  The Trains.com forum has 5 subdivisions, including one for Kids and Model Railroading.

".....even bringing something like this up just leads to erosion to civility on the forum" ?  

Geez, Mich, I didn't suggest that we build a bonfire and burn all Lionel equipment.  My only point was that a subdivision would faciltate sorting through AF threads and those that are not.  Sure, every one who starts a thread could include American Flyer or Lionel in the subject title, but they don't.  I just find it hard to believe that Lionel guys have any more interest in American Flyer than American Flyer guys have in Lionel.  It's not a civility thing, it is an area of interest thing.

Shame on me for even bringing something like this up.

Rich

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Posted by Joe Hohmann on Friday, January 28, 2011 7:47 AM

If you want "divided", go to the OGR Forum...they have separate sections for "S", Scale, and even York! Of course, the OGR Forum is far more active, daily posting-wise, than this one, so it may make more sense.

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Posted by balidas on Friday, January 28, 2011 7:23 PM

I like the forum as it is. Even tho my interests are in postwar Lionel and Marx, I enjoy following Timboys progress, as well as the other member who now is going to change his s scale layout. I enjoy reading Northwoods Flyer's immense thread and pretty much all other posts in this forum. In actuality, this is the only model train forum I visit.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, January 28, 2011 7:37 PM

richhotrain

Shame on me for even bringing something like this up.

Rich

I wouldn't go that far!  I'm sure the question comes up in everybody's mind sooner or later, you just said what many of us were thinking!  That takes guts considering how easily the subject could get inflammatory!

Becky

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Posted by rtraincollector on Friday, January 28, 2011 7:43 PM

I mainly collect O but do have some G and standard gauge also but i enjoy reading the ones titled AF or S as theres a lot of good info there too. at first i thought by your title was another pro AF negative Lionel but i see your point to a small degree as i also would like to keep it as it is as i would probably miss some good tips because being O I would not be looking in the AF part.

I have even thought of getting some S gauge be it AF or a few of the other now offered just to have some but not sure what is worth getting and what isn't but right now as I put in the coffee pot I have been put on double train buying restriction for a while lol she jumped to double right away gotta love her thou .

So I agree with the others in please leave it as is. Theres so much info that can be shared both ways.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, January 29, 2011 5:44 AM

Penny Trains

 richhotrain:

Shame on me for even bringing something like this up.

Rich

 

I wouldn't go that far!  I'm sure the question comes up in everybody's mind sooner or later, you just said what many of us were thinking!  That takes guts considering how easily the subject could get inflammatory!

Becky

Becky,

Actually, I was being sarcastic.  But, I appreciate your supportive words.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, January 29, 2011 5:57 AM

rtraincollector

So I agree with the others in please leave it as is. Theres so much info that can be shared both ways.

I guess what amuses me most about several of these responses is the concern that a separate forum for American Flyer would result in the total loss of information and the sharing of ideas.

On the MRR forum, which I frequent, there are 4 separate forums: General Discussion, Layouts and Layout Building, Electronics and DCC, and Prototype Information.  The first three interest me, so I visit each of them.  The fourth holds no interest for me, so I skip it.   But, it is just a click away if I want it.

Things would work the same way with an American Flyer forum.  If you are interested in Lionel, click on the separate forum. It would be that easy.  Share if you want to, skip it if you don't.  Personally, when I know the thread is about Lionel, I skip it.  I have nothing against Lionel.  My brother-in-law and my liefelong buddy both have Lionel layouts. I just have no interest in it.  But, the information is still there if I want it.

If fewer forums would result in a greater sharing of information and ideas, why don't we just have one big forum?  No subdivisions at all.

Rich

 

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Posted by traindaddy1 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 2:14 PM

Rich: Your thread, like all good threads, raises questions and opens dialogue.

After reading some of the replies, I would agree with, perhaps the majority, that the present Forum design is fine.

Then I got to thinking why am I a Lionel Postwar guy and not an American Flyer guy.  After all, the look of the two rails, for this former "HO" enthusiast, is more realistic.   The answer, for me, is quite apparent.  When I decided to leave the smaller size, I did consider A.F. but  discovered that there were more items available within my budget and they were more readily accessible with Lionel.  Perhaps others have experienced like situations and thus the predominance of Lionel owners.

Getting back to your original post......I read all the postings whether they are Lionel or Flyer or if they refer to a specific question or problem with an item that I don't own simply because I use the Forum as a learning tool.  I really enjoy the hobby and the information.  

Thanks for the opportunity to reply.........Again, "good" thread!

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Posted by AF53 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 2:38 PM

Rich - First let me start by mentioning what I own. American Flyer in 0 and S gauges, Lionel in HO and 0 gauges, G and N scale Bachmann and Marx. Yes, you might call me confused. But I'm sure I'm not alone. The American Flyer S, Lionel HO and Marx I got as a child. The rest over the past 20 years. I am 53 years old. My main passion is American Flyer S then 0 gauges.

That being said I'm ok with they way things are. I agree with most of the posters in that I learn from both of the dominant topics (American Flyer and Lionel, sprinlked in with some Marx).

Good topic with many opinions casted, thanks for the idea.

Ray   

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Posted by horned-frog on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 6:22 PM

Rich,

I just found a set that brings together both Lionel and American Flyer in a way few collectors consider: Using up excess inventory to complete cheapie sets! As we all know, some of Lionel's most desirable components can be found in what originally sold as bottom of the line inexpensive Scout sets.

Consider this unique find: American Flyer set 20120 was produced in 1960 and included an Atlantic 21161 steam locomotive that only ran forward only along with Pikemaster MKT boxcar, AF caboose, PRR gondola and NH stake flat. Certainly nothing special. The one I found includes the much more desirable Prestone Car Care 21161 along with the hard-to-find green T&P gondola with large lettering. Not even the much more desirable uncataloged Prestone Set No. 20188 includes that gondola!

Tim

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Posted by V8Vega on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 9:59 AM

The forum is adequately active now. If they cut it into two it would seem like no one is here.

Dennis  San Fernando Valley CA.  Joined August 2009

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