lionel zw questions.

[the nitro man]

I've never been around any of the Lionel zw transformers, but I've heard the zw 250's & the non type r 275's are loud & run hot. Is this true? I've been looking to buy one, but the only thing in my price range on ebay are the zw 250's, & I've never seen one in operation to know how noisy they are. can any of you give me the rundown on these? are they so loud i will be able to hear it over my post war trains, or do they just have a little hum? how hot do they get? what ever i get I'm going to replace the whistle rectifiers with diodes & replace the power cord. can the carbon rollers be replaced by me at home or do you absolutely have to have the Lionel press? thanks

[ivesboy]

Ive never heard anyone say they were noisy....or noticed they run hot. Just seem like any other old transformer. I think the rollers should best be done with an arbor press. Seems like the new age guys look for any reason to cut up the classic stuff. I bet a Z4000 or whatever it is wont be working in 50 years.

[Anonymous]

Jerry,

           I have four ZWs ranging from an early 250W with the brass coil brackets from 1948 to a 275W Model R from 1956-57.  All four (one 250W and three 275Ws) perform great with no noticeable difference between the 250W and 275W.  The Model R 275W has the riveted lamination and is dead silent, although even the earlier ZWs produce a very low hum at best.  You'll never hear it with trains running.

As for roller replacement, I've done three ZWs with nothing more than pliers and diagonal cutters or small nippers.  You don't need the press, but you do need to be experienced and comfortable working on 120V appliances.

[servoguy]

I agree with Jim re the noise and operation of the ZWs. I have a 250 watt ZW that I got about 35 years ago. When I got it, I had no idea where to get rollers, and the local Lionel dealer wouldn't sell me rollers, so I got some carbon brushes and had a machine shop make the rollers. I didn't like Lionel's method of using rivets to hole the rollers in place, so I got some brass pins the right diameter and length, and soldered them in place. The arms that hold the rollers were showing evidence of heating and the rivets didn't look like they were making good connections with the arms. I haven't had the transformer open since I did this 35 years ago, and it is still operating properly. I will probably open it up in the near future just to check on everything. Bruce Baker

[phillyreading]

I have a Lionel 275 watt ZW from the 1960's and all I have done is replace the little roller wheels and clean the inside where the roller wheels make contact. I second what Jim(a.k.a. green97probe) says about replacing the roller wheels, very easy if you have some mechanical knowledge. To use it with the new trains of today you will to add better circuit protection, such as newer circuit(7 amp) breakers after the transformer outputs.

Comparing the older ZW's to the newer ones; "I have never seen an older ZW fall apart" or have cross circuit problems like the brand new ZW's are plaqued with. I have read many posts about the new ZW's and it amazes me that there isn't a recall from Lionel to fix the quality issues with them. Have heard that the handle that controls the throttle output on the brand new ZW comes right out of the transformer, also that output post A crosses over to output post D on its own.

The other thing that kept me away from the new ZW, you need to supply it(the shell) with power packs or bricks, just another way to make money for the company. The old ZW has everything inside the transformer, NO need to buy the power blocks seperately!!

 An older appliance will need some upkeep regardless what it is, but for the money involved I would go out and buy the older ZW any day of the week and spend a few dollars to fix it than to buy a new DUD!!(new product dead from the factory). Sorry if I seem very agressively negative about the new ZW's but when you have a bad product somebody needs to sound off and warn others.

Lee F.

[sir james I]

Roller replacement can be quick and easy if you know how to solder. Clean the area around the rivet hole, install a new roller and rivet. A drop of solder on the rivet head and your back in business. Makes next replacement , if needed, very easy. Make sure you have a safe AC cord. If its brittle do not use.

[the nitro man]

hey thank all of you for your information. i've heard the new lionel zw's suck as well i i don't like the idea of having bricks power the "transformer". one main reason for the zw is to clean things up, not have more to hide & even more wires.

i'm going to try to find a zw 250 or 275 in my price range. i'll let you know what i come up with.

 

[mikeberry]

You can always check on craigslist also.  You might find a good deal there. 

[Anonymous]

Jerry,
I have the 'modern' ZW and love it. The bricks do add some mess, but it is hard to beat 720W!

You may want to hold off till the ZW-L is released. 720W inside the transformer and gauges on top.

[the nitro man]

good lord man, with 720 watts i could jump start my car. lol

 

so their going back to putting power back in the transformer? i bet that sucker will be around $500 bucks when it comes out. 

[mikeberry]

the nitro man

good lord man, with 720 watts i could jump start my car. lol

 That is funny!! 

[jjm]

Apparently, there are some humming problems with ZWs, but here is a fix for the ZW (R).

http://www.tranz4mr.com/site/ZW_Type_R_Hum_Fix.html

[phillyreading]

I must not have run into the type R postwar ZW, as all the ZW's I have seen or tested have been very quiet. The only problem I have run into on the pw ZW's is when somebody has removed a wire, or the wire came off, from the terminal strips that supply power to posts A to D.

My postwar 275 watt ZW never had a problem with overheating, even when running four trains at one time.

I have bought other new Lionel products and had to sell them to somebody just to get back a small portion of my loss; example 6-23011 O gauge switch.

As for the new ZW-L, only time will tell! But I would rather put my money with the proven postwar ZW's.

Lee F.

[the nitro man]

i'm going with the old zw. for the price & liability you can't beat them. the zw 250's go for around $100.00 bucks on ebay. even after i replace the rollers, cord, & upgrade to whistle diodes, i still won't have anywhere near the cost of a new zw or the mth 4000. i bet i could buy three post war zw's for the same cost of one of them.

 have any of you used the old lionel vw 150?

[servoguy]

If you want a real bargain, buy a KW. 190 watts, two trains, fixed voltage taps, and you should be able to buy one for $35. I own 4 of them and one 250 watt ZW, and frankly, I like the KWs better than the ZW. The ZW does look sexier, however, and it definitely is top of the line. Bruce Baker

[Anonymous]

Jerry,

            Due to their rarity compared to ZWs, VWs command almost equal prices.

[phillyreading]

While the VW may look like a ZW it has about 100 watts less power according to the price guide. The KW is good for accessory output voltages but only allows you to run two trains at a time unless you hook up one to the higher voltage accessory output for a trolley or other type of streetcar.

My personal choice is the 275 watt ZW, as it has four control handles.

Another transformer to consider would be the 250 watt Z, a four train control, if you just want to run trains without the whistle feature.

Lee F.

[ballastbob]

 Lee,

What did you use to clean the part of the coils that the carbon rollers contact?

Bob

[the nitro man]

Well, I bought me one. It's supposed to have a new cord & roller contacts in it. all I should have to do is upgrade the whistle rectifiers to diodes (if it hasn't been done yet). Also I believe it is a type "R 275." here is a link. did i go wrong?  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130420959676&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

 

[servoguy]

Lee, My reason for recommending the KW is that they are cheap. $35 for 190 watts. As I said, I bought 3 at about that price, and had to put rollers in one of them and new cords on all of them. New cords are $1 at Home Depot, and I do all of my own repair work. I cleaned off the coil where the roller runs with a wire wheel in a Dremmel tool. A ScotchBrite pad should work as well, maybe better. Bruce Baker

[mikeberry]

I am curious as to what benefits you gain from upgrading the whistle rectifiers to diodes?  Thanks.

[servoguy]

The DC voltage is higher with the diodes and so the whistle relay will work a little better. IMHO, if the old rectifiers are working, leave them along. And BTW, don't rotate the discs or you will be replacing them. I use a 5 amp diode without a heat sink to replace the old rectifiers, and so far, it works just fine. Bruce Baker

[11th Street]

In my family we owned both a 1953 KW and a 1957 ZW. The KW would hum, the ZW didn't. I bought a reconditioned ZW in 1995 and true to form it does not hum. A humming ZW would be considered a flawed unit today as was the case then. The KW was then and remains today a strictly single PW motor, modest train length unit.

As for running "hot" here's the crucial issue. (As reviewed numerous time in the various magazines ...) the 250/275 watt ZWs are really only capable of putting out about 166 watts continuous. That's two modest length single motor, modern trains. Start pulling a PW 2x vertical motor F3 w/ a string of incandescent passenger cars up a trestle + a single motor 6 car freight and your beyond the limit of that 55 yo electrical appliance. That aging ZW is going to get at least warm. That's not a good situation & your operations should be modified pronto. On our own layout the ZW is used only for signaling, running 3 PW trolleys+gang car, and some modest LED lights associated w/ some operating accessories.

All actual train operations are relegated to 3 MTH Z4000s ... as is the practice of numerous big train clubs and serious operators I am aware of. There are numerous reasons for going modern power, least of which is the safety factor of fast acting resettable independent circuit breakers on a very high current electrical appliance... but that is for another thread. 

[lionelsoni]

I agree that there is no good reason to replace a working copper-oxide rectifier.

A silicon rectifier has a higher forward voltage than a copper-oxide rectifier and therefore may in principle produce less rather than more DC voltage.  The difference is slight, about .2 volts, and may be obscured by differences among silicon rectifiers' bulk resistance and variation in the copper-oxide rectifier's condition.  A Schottky diode, whose forward voltage of about .4 volts is similar to copper oxide is a closer replacement for copper oxide; but it's hardly worth the trouble.

Much of the heat produced by older toy-train transformers is not due to any ageing on their part, but by the increase in utilization voltage over the years since the war of about 5 volts.  Small transformers are typically designed to saturate somewhat at their rated voltage, in order to reduce their size and cost, at the expense of heating even with no load.  Operating as they do on the edge, they are particularly sensitive to increases in line voltage.  Every watt of heat that a postwar transformer produces at no load is a watt of increased heat that is not available under load.  Older transformers run on 110 or 115 volts are a lot cooler than on 120 volts.  But that is not easy to arrange.

[Hudson#685]

Jerry,

I believe that you did very well and I am sure that you will be pleased with it. I have a couple of ZW transformers that I have had for many years. During the Holidays, I set up a double track layout around the tree. Sometimes 1 of the loops is Standard Gauge, other times they are both O gauge. I have never had major transformer problems, except wear, mainly because I don't overload them. I know that the ZW will run 4 trains, but I have a lot of assesories and lighting. When I run a double O gauge loop, I hook 1 train up to the ZW, and use the 2 inner handles to regulate the speed for the trolley and gang car. Also I hook up a number of other assy. to it. I hook the other loop and some other assy. to my TW transformer. It also helps keep the young engineers at bay when they come over to run the trains. They have seperate transformers. Good luck with your purchase and remember a few years ago transformers were selling for a $1 a watt.

John

[the nitro man]

i received it yesterday. it is a type R & is very quiet. althought it doesn't have an R on the base plate or case, it is a type R. i read somewhere that lionel only marked the first couple of years of the type R transformers, until the last couple years when it was on the case below the wire contacts. 

it has a new lionel cord, new rollers, & a new circuit breaker. i would bet the whisle rectifiers are new too. all this cost me under $175.00 including shipping.

is there any way to polish the cases or do they all look kinda spotty?

[Anonymous]

Jerry,

           Some of the ZW cases are smooth and shiny, while others are somewhat textured and spotty.  Armor All sometimes works to bring up the shine, but just be sure to buff it off.

[Taranwanderer]

Hey--if you can afford 3 MTH Z-4000s and a few modern bricks to run your layout, great--the modern stuff is more in tune with today's line voltages and does have faster acting circuit breakers (the Lionel bricks we have on our club layout powering our MTH TIUs trip at the drop of a hat, I've never seen anything like it!) But if you're on a budget for your moderately sized home layout, you won't go wrong with a PW 250 or 275 ZW or a KW--I use a 275W ZW for one inner loop of track and my yard operations, and a KW for my main line. At Bob N's suggestion, I use both external automotive circuit breakers in between the A-B-C-D post and the track, and 4 separate TVSs across each output, and this has worked well for me. I run a mix of PW, MPC, and modern locomotives and trolleys (all conventional control) and I've only had an issue with frying a circuit board in a modern loco before I had the TVSs installed. For the price, it's hard to beat the ZW/KWs of old. The do hum a little, they do get warm (esp if you try to run 4 trains at once,) and I have had my 275W ZW trip it's internal circuit breaker from overload, not from a short. But that's what it's supposed to do. Whatever you decide to buy, have fun and do the mods as needed to protect your trains!

[the nitro man]

what kind of fuses & tvs are used? i have a few postwar, one prewar, several mpc, one k line, & a couple new lionels & mth engines with all the electronics.

where do i get the tvs's & fuses? any part numbers?

[lionelsoni]

The 1.5KE36CA is the TVS that I recommend:  http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/102002/1185776.aspx#1185776

Unless you don't mind changing fuses, get automatically resetting thermal circuit breakers from an auto parts store.  Use the current rating appropriate for your wiring and transformer.

Are you sure you have a type R?  The type R had two independent outputs, two circuit breakers, and no whistle control.