Mobil 1 5W-30 synthetic oil and Mobil 1 synthetic grease do just fine for me. My
All the rest is just noise.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
wiz1500...I am not qualified to make the call on deviating from the manufactures recommendation for proper lubrication of there equipment, meaning that I can not say there is a better lubricant to use then what Lionel tells me I should be using....
Well, another 9 years of real world testing with Mobil 1 oil and Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2 grease on our model train equipment, some of it used in public display and some on long-term operation duty cycles, and even more in sporadic storage cycles, and still the synthetics are making our O-Gauge trains run better than ever after 20+ years of use.
Rob
The whole Email copyed and pasted.........YOU decide I'm not changing my mind..
.Anyone no where I can get a good deal on some factory Lionel oil.????? lolol
Hi, We only recommend Lionel oil and grease, however people successfully use many different lubricants such as those listed in your email without any problems. We have never tested any lubricants aside from the ones we sell, so we cannot offer any determination on which of the listed products is better. Thanks Lionel Tech. >>> <wiz1500@aol.com> 2/24/2010 2:36 AM >>> From: Keith A Podolan **** Potomac Center Line MI 48015 586-531-**** wiz1500@aol.com Product Number: 6-28052 Transformer: ZW's Track: Fast, Atlas , 027, O Switches: yes.....lol Club Membership Number: Question: To whom it may concern, There has been much debate between my friends and I as to the proper lubricant to use on are modern and older Lionel engines and rolling stock when Lionel oil and grease is unavailable. I my self take the stand that a light weight natural mineral oil and grease is all that is needed, were there are those that say using a multi grade automotive type synthetic oil is ok along with a synthetic grease. If you could shed some light on this controversy a long with an explanation it would be much appreciated. Thank you very much. Keith Podolan
ADCX Rob wiz1500mineral oil and lithium grease is all that is needed The Lucas grease is Lithium already. At least you agree on using this, & assume Lionel will too. Rob
wiz1500mineral oil and lithium grease is all that is needed
The Lucas grease is Lithium already. At least you agree on using this, & assume Lionel will too.
LithiumOOOPPPs I typed a boo boo ...
I'm just wondering ??? Do we no what Lithium is ??
Lithium is a soft, silver-white metal that belongs to the alkali metal group of chemical elements. It is represented by the symbol Li, and it has the atomic number 3. Under standard conditions it is the lightest metal and the least dense solid element. Like all alkali metals, lithium is highly reactive, corroding quickly in moist air to form a black tarnish. For this reason, lithium metal is typically stored under the cover of petroleum. When cut open, lithium exhibits a metallic luster, but contact with oxygen quickly turns it back to a dull silvery gray color. Lithium in its elemental state is highly flammable.
So what does this mean for us? Do I want to put a possibly highly corrosive lubricant on my Commodore Vanderbilt gears and have it fling up on the tender ? or will I stick with my good old clay thickened non-soap grease...HHH-MMMMM
See I think the real problem here is the fact that people are trying to find a wounder oil and grease so they don't have to do any maintenance on there equipment, and they can also tell there friends " I use this super grease and super oil so my equipment is the best and I'm the best restorer or train fixer guy around".. lolol..... well I'm sorry to say I don't fall into that B.S. I have been trained to look for my answers from credibly sources. In my line of work if the wrong lube goes into a piece of equipment it could mean MILLIONS of dollars in damage and lost product. We always look to are Manufactures for a recommendation and or a lubrication engineer if there is ever a deviation in type or frequencies of lube. Just for the sake of the talk and to stay on the same path as to why I look at people who really no what they are talking about..Do you really think for a minute that I would take the word of just some guy on the Internet when I am putting oil in my 250+ H.P. super bike. Well when the connecting rod comes flying out of the motor at 160 M.P.H. because there was no oil wedge on the plain barring I think I'll no that Mr. Internet guy was wrong on his recommendation to me. If I live to talk about it....lolol.....I don't claim to be an expert in the field of lubrication. All I can tell you is, that in 25 years of racing (Pro & Sportsmen) along with 20 years of auto & Motorcycle wrenching plus the last 15 years of heavy industrial machine maintenance. I have NEVER EVER seen a lubrication failur because someone followed the manufactures recommendations...That my friends is the bottom line..!!!!!
After looking through most of this material by no means have I seen a winning argument for automotive oil to be used in anything but an automobile. As I have already stated there are way to many things in that kind of oil that could have a negative effect on are equipment detergents, zinc and all the other crap that I have and have not mentioned. Do your selves a favor and put all your super oils and greases in your hot rods, super bikes and race boats That's what I do and my trains are happier for it..
Just as a side note the only thing that WD-40 should ever be used for is displacing water off of a Titan missile housing (what it was designed for ) and helping to brake the exhaust flange nuts loose on a 72 Chevelle ... other then that through the (stuff) away......
Just to help put this to rest ( even though we all no it will never go away ) I have sent an E-mail to the home office.....[ Lionel ]
To whom it may concern,
There has been much debate between my friends and I as to the proper lubricant to use on are modern and older Lionel engines and rolling stock when Lionel oil and grease is unavailable. I my self take the stand that a light weight natural mineral oil and lithium grease is all that is needed, were there are those that say using a multi grade automotive type synthetic oil is ok along with a synthetic grease. If you could shed some light on this controversy a long with an explanation it would be much appreciated.Thank you very much.
Here is yet another thought on oils and small electric motors (antique fan site):
http://www.fancollectors.org/info/Lubrication.htm
"Automotive oils have "detergents" which is bad for electric motors.Detergent oils clean the crud off of components, the crud then circulates through theporous bearings (which is a major part of the oil recirculation system), eventuallystopping up the pores, eventually causing a loss of the oil film separating theshaft and bearing, eventually causing bearing and/or shaft wear, eventuallycausing a loss in the air gap between stator and rotor, eventually causing themotor to electrically or mechanically lock up, causing a fan that just sits thereand hums. DON'T USE DETERGENT OILS.Your 100-year old fan motors didn't use it.
I have read warnings not to put grease or Drislide on porus bearings because either would clog the pores and cause problems. They did like the Zoom Spout oiler, and its Unocal 76 turbine oil
servoguyI have seen the varnish he talk about on machine tools, but without knowing what kind of lubes were used on the machine
My personal experience with both 3-in-one oil and WD-40 is that they both can get sticky / gummy over time.
As far as the Zoom Spout oil is concerned, I believe any oil left in the can will not deteriorate very fast.
I picked up a bottle of "Zoom Spout Oiler", part #441, at least 15 years ago in a local appliance parts store.The bottle I have say it was made by Gemline, Gem Products IncThey call it "turbine oil"The spout is a flexible piece of tubing over 9 inches long. The plastic bottle and the oil inside has turned an amber color, but it still looks ready to use.
The quote that cwburfle posted is interesting. It is purely an opinion. The guy who wrote it is saying things that he cannot support with real data. I have seen the varnish he talk about on machine tools, but without knowing what kind of lubes were used on the machine, it is impossible to know what caused the varnish. How does this guy know the lubes he is using are not going to result in varnish build up after 30 years? Detergent oils are designed to prevent the formation of varnish. Synthetic oils like Mobile 1 are better than mineral oils at preventing varnish build up. I have opened up several automobile engines after 200k+ and found very little varnish in them. The ones that had varnish didn't have much, and it was clear that the previous owner had not changed the oil regularly.
IMHO, using synthetic oil for an engine and/or the cars is a good idea, and is probably better than using a mineral oil. Ditto for greases. The remaining questions have to do with damage to paint, plastic, and/or decals by the automotive oils.
Bruce Baker
Jim,
I have had the same experience with most greases and that is why I advised everyone to stay away from them. I hadn't thought about using a synthetic grease, but it is a good idea.
When I was searching for information about oils, I ran across a post that said that the synthetic oils are more consistant than the mineral oils in that the mineral oils are a blend of several different hydrocarbons, some of which are light oils and some are heavier oils. The synthetic oils are supposed to have all the molecules of the same weight. This would mean that the synthetic oils would last almost indefinitely and would never get gummy.
My experience with WD-40 is that it evaporates and leaves a very thin lubricant behind. I lubed some 022 switches with it years ago, and there is no sign of any gummy residue, and the switches still worked well.
I have Zoom Spout here, and it seems to have held up well. I have had this bottle since 2000 when I purchased it from the local Ace Hardware, and it hasn't changed over time. For grease, I really am impressed with Green Grease. It is synthetic, and it is soft and stays put. It also hasn't separated, unlike the white lithoum grease that I used in the past.
Lubricants have come a looooong way since the pre-war era ... and what worked for older bullet proof engines does'nt cut it for the new ones . Lube gunk buildup can slow or overwork an engine and ruin it . Check out teflon additive lubes and liquid bearings ... it's called . That huge investment you've been making in trains is worth it ......
To all of you that are contributing to this thread. Please keep it going with your research and comments as I'm learning a lot. I'm just getting back into trains and very much appreciate all the sharing of information. Seems like there may be some consensus eventually that will benefit everyone. Of course, not everyone will agree, but with all the information presented everyone can make a pretty good decision as to how to lubricate their own equipment.
Mickey
servoguyHere is a link to a discussion of oils for machine tools
LOL, I did not read every word, but it looks like they are as conflicted about lubricants as the folks here. The trouble with using open forums as a reference is that everybody passes themselves off as an expert. How are we to judge who is correct?There are certainly people posting here and on other boards whose opinion I value highly.
I'll stick with my Labelle lubricants. If I can afford to own Lionel trains, I think I can afford to buy the specialty oils, even if they are costing many times a can of motor oil.
An interesting snip from that link:
I put a hearty second to this. I restore machine tools and one of thebiggest parts of any restoration is the removal of the varnish thatdetergent oils, petroleum based oils, coolants, cutting oils, and WD-40turn into over time. I would take all my cans of WD-40 and put them inthe trash as that is where they belong. Use products that are specifically designed to perform the function youare intending. Be all do all 3-in-One-Oil, WD-40, etc. do far more harmover the long run than the short term good they seen to perform. I havedozens of different greases, oils and cleaners in my shop but not onecan of WD-40. The key here is, all things you use should be non-oxidizing products, andany product that meets that criterion will say so on the packaging. If itdoesn't it will oxidize over time. Make your machine tools ones thatdon't have to be restored by some future owner, or discarded when theywon't hold tolerances any more.
I put a hearty second to this. I restore machine tools and one of the
biggest parts of any restoration is the removal of the varnish that
detergent oils, petroleum based oils, coolants, cutting oils, and WD-40
turn into over time. I would take all my cans of WD-40 and put them in
the trash as that is where they belong.
Use products that are specifically designed to perform the function you
are intending. Be all do all 3-in-One-Oil, WD-40, etc. do far more harm
over the long run than the short term good they seen to perform. I have
dozens of different greases, oils and cleaners in my shop but not one
can of WD-40.
The key here is, all things you use should be non-oxidizing products, and
any product that meets that criterion will say so on the packaging. If it
doesn't it will oxidize over time. Make your machine tools ones that
don't have to be restored by some future owner, or discarded when they
won't hold tolerances any more.
servoguy Here is a link to a discussion of oils for machine tools. There is some good info here, and it is making me think I need to look into other oils that might be very good for the trains. http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/lubricants_general.txt Bruce Baker
Here is a link to a discussion of oils for machine tools. There is some good info here, and it is making me think I need to look into other oils that might be very good for the trains.
http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/lubricants_general.txt
Now my eye's hurt Bruce thanks....lolololol
That is a whole lot of stuff......I did find this in there "Zoom Spout is used for electric motor bearings (furnaceblowers, etc.) and it appears to be a "pure oil""
We might want to take a look and see what this is....I'm to sleepy right now..ha ha
I'll look at that sight again prob. on Monday..
The manufacturers don't always give you the best information. Let me give you some real examples:
I drove several Mercedes from 1984 to the present. Several 450 SELs, one 450 SL, two 380 SEs. Mercedes claimed for a long time that their organic brake pads were the best. I knew they were lying. I used semi metalic pads on all my cars, and the first 450 SEL I bought went to its grave at over 400k miles with the ORIGINAL rotors. Organic pads make a lot of money for the dealer. Several years ago, Car & Driver tested organic v. semimetalic pads, and the semimetalic pads were siginificantly better. 2nd example of the cars "engineered like no other cars in the world." In the SOHC V-8 engines, the wizards used plastic chain guides. These chain guides would brake and occasionally get between the sprocket and chain on the driver's side and grenade the engine. Cost to fix? 10 years ago it was $2200+. The aftermarket got wise and started making aluminum chain guides which never broke. Do you think Mercedes had enough respect for their customers to advise them to use the aluminum guides? Ha ha. I have a box full of bent valves to prove this. These same wizards made the engine block for the 450 V-8s out of nodular iron which cost more than gray iron and lasts forever. At 200k miles, I took the heads off an engine and the hone marks were still visible in the cylinder walls. But they put plastic parts inside the engine to save $3. I bought a much used 300SD a few years ago with the idea of converting it to run on vegetable oil. While I had the car, I checked the accuracy of the odometer. It showed 15% more miles than the car actually traveled. You don't suppose they did this on purpose to enhance the car's mileage, do you? It's a digital speedometer running off of a code wheel on the transmission tailshaft. I never saw a Mercedes odometer than ran more than 150k before it failed. The window regulators in the S class cars up through 1980 were made from die cast zinc. Zinc is not a structural metal. The castings would cold flow and the gears would get out of mesh, and the casting would eventually break at about 100k miles. This regulator cost $125 several years ago, and took about 4 hours to install. As far as I know, MB and BMW are still using die cast zinc. At the same time, they used a window motor that would last forever except they used a cheap paper gasket to seal the gearbox, and the paper gasket would sometimes let water into the gearbox and the gearbox would seize up. Chevrolet uses stamped steel which lasts forever, and they use a cheap motor which costs $40 and is easy to replace and usually lasts 200k.
Similarly, BMW made a blower speed controller for many years that had 4 bipolar transistors wired in series with no emitter resistors. This sterling design would always eventually fail. The part cost $225 at the dealers. A mechanic friend of mine and I spent Sat afternoon several years ago redesigning this controller so it would never fail. He charges his customers $225 for the new design including the labor to install it, and they now have a device with an infinite life. The parts cost to do this is $5. Some years ago, I had an engineer from BMW in my office discussing motion bases. I brought up this sterling design, and he admitted that they knew about it, but they never fixed it.
The point is, don't necessarily believe anything the manufacturer tells you. He may have a hidden agenda.
JLC and AC Gilbert must be looking down and laughing with each other as JLC says,"AC, boy all we did was manufacture simple TOY TRAINS and these guys are having lengthy discussions on what type of oil to lube ther locos with." I know that everybody wants to use what is best, but there are so many lubricants on the market and each one has their good points. This reminds me of a discussion we had about lubricating a chain on a piece of equipment at work with the manufactures reps. and they both disagreed with on the proper type of lube. The product that the manual called for was discontinued.
This is a great disussion and everyone has valid points. But the wrong lube can do more damage than good.
Bruce, I used 5w20 on my a #53 Rio Grande Snow Plow that I purchased recently that had running problems. It worked great and the unit now runs superb. Thank you.
John
Guys, what we really need here is engineering test data on the various lubricants. These may be available on the Internet or from the manufacturer. IMHO, if the manufacturer won't provide data, their lubricants are off of my list. The compatibility with plastic for most of my engines and cars is not an issue as they are metal. I have some newer cars with plastic trucks, and so it may be an issue for these cars. While there are some odds that the engine oil I am using is not compatible with some plastics, I don't think we will find it to be an issue. For hard plastics, like the brush plates on a 736 or 2343, I am sure there is no issue. I have a 736 that I have had for 35 years, and I used engine oil on it 35 years ago. I will check it and verify that there is no problem with the engine oil.
Anyone who has been using a certain type of lubricants for a long time should tell us all how long the lubes have been used, and how long an engine has been stored without being lubed and what the condition of the engine was after storage. That gives us some information about the long term life of the lube.
servoguyI will run some of these comments past him and see what he says.
Better send them a link to the entire post. There's a lot here.
I have yet to see anyone give a name or a quote from an engineer that works in the field we are talking about...HMMMM.....
I have consulted one engineer friend who is an expert on lubricants, and I have another one I can consult. The second one owns a consulting company and advises the aerospace/defense industry in Los Angeles about bearings and lubricants. I will run some of these comments past him and see what he says.
wiz1500...If I was going to use an auto oil it would be a 0 weight anyway ... They don't even have the weight right..lolol
I have used Mobil 1 0W (0W-20 - or just 0W on train equipment - will never change for our uses) with great success. You cant really tell the difference from the 5W oils, though.
RockIsland52 Now we can discuss how/which lubricants in a tube, tub, or bottle hold up over time, which are better, and how to correctly store them. Though it was time for a little comic relief. Jack
Now we can discuss how/which lubricants in a tube, tub, or bottle hold up over time, which are better, and how to correctly store them. Though it was time for a little comic relief.
Jack
Well let me start be telling you that you should...............LMAO....
You are right Jack every one take a breath...lolol
My point in all this is that you should realy no what you are putting in or on your prized train.. Just because someone said it's the way to do it dosen't make it right..I Iook to the engineering design team that built the piece in the first place because at the end of the day they are the ones that have done the home work. These guy's have looked at the base stock of there oils and done the research to make sure that there will be no long term negative effects by the use of said oil. You have to look at things like, If I get this oil on the paint of my $2000 Accela (which I own) and I don't clean it off because a failed to see it. Will the Anti- Foaming agents in automotive oil soften the paint at some point down the road?? Or will the alkalinity of said auto oil start attack the already soft casting of my Hudson? For me I will not risk it, I don't need a seal swell agent taking my decals off because someone thought the were smarter then the guy's who designed are toys. I have seen people quote rocket scientist, doctors and god knows who ever else but I have yet to see anyone give a name or a quote from an engineer that works in the field we are talking about...HMMMM.....
Stick with what you no works and what works for me is what the manufacture tells me to use....
Just my 2 cents... I have given my opinion..
Have a great day folks...
P.S. If I was going to use an auto oil it would be a 0 weight anyway ... They don't even have the weight right..lolol
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
I find this discussion interesting because alot of my MTH and Williams owners literature say to use "a basic household oil" like 3-IN-One. My Dad used to use WEN barber clipper oil on our trains, with the needle (hyperdermic) applicator.
I use the 3-In-One, but only because the newer engines I have say so. I am interested on testing out the 20W-50 oil that Bruce described. I haven't seen any gumming yet, but I don't doubt the guys who say it does.
I still have some old Lionel Lubricant tubes of grease that Dad got sometime either back in the late 50's (orange and white tube). I don't know if its any good or not, I've never used it, just keep it around because it looks cool.
Ok thanks for clearing all that up....Good luck . Have a nice day...
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