I've read some old threads that I found about lubricants. Just want to make sure as I've just started back into this and was anxious to try out our first purchase, 4-6-4, so I lubed the gears with Singer sewing machine lubricant and oiled other parts with 3 in 0ne. I didn't have anything else. Did I mess up? Couldn't tell from reading what I found or the labels. The part about plastic compatible has me concerned.
And, while I'm at it, is there a ball park time frame for how often this should be done?
Thanks, and sorry, I know some of you are rolling your eyes as this topic has been discussed a lot.
Mickey
kgstones I've read some old threads that I found about lubricants. Just want to make sure as I've just started back into this and was anxious to try out our first purchase, 4-6-4, so I lubed the gears with Singer sewing machine lubricant and oiled other parts with 3 in 0ne. I didn't have anything else. Did I mess up? Couldn't tell from reading what I found or the labels. The part about plastic compatible has me concerned. And, while I'm at it, is there a ball park time frame for how often this should be done? Thanks, and sorry, I know some of you are rolling your eyes as this topic has been discussed a lot. Mickey
Mickey,
I don't know if Singer sewing machine lubricant or 3 in 0ne are good, bad, or neither, but I can tell you that before using the only lubricants available in your house, spend a few bucks and buy the right products. As an example, for $7 per item, Labelle Industries makes high quality lubricants including gear lube and motor oil. Better safe than sorry!
Rich
Alton Junction
My 2046 just hit 60 and the Singer was all I used till it ran out. Worked for me. I currently (20 years) use the Lionel stuff because I can get the application needle into the recesses easily without a problem. I also used the 3 in 1 for about 10 years when the sewing machine oil ran out. No problema.
Lionel grease originally. Then vaseline on the gears for about a decade (too thick for my taste), switched to white lithium grease 30 years ago or so. No problema.
The original everything still shows little sign of wear.
Others may take issue, but that is what I have done and it has worked for me. To me "clean, oiled, and greased" with routine maintenance is as important as what product is used on the metal stuff. Worked for me on slot cars too whether I was running brass or aluminum gears, brass or ball bearings.
If I had plastic gears I'd do some reading first.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
I think an interesting question might not just include what is used but how often......i.e., after how many operating hours or situational considerations.
My Christmas operations take place on the floor where dog and cat hair, and dust bunnies, come into the picture. I won't tell you how much tinsel I removed from engines and cars's moving parts when I first resurrected my trains about a quarter century ago, despite the aforementioned diligence. That stuff can find hiding places.
Anything "engine" that I store and don't run for months/years gets a once over after I confirm that it is working in the first place.
I quit using 3-in-one long time ago (over 30 years!) because it tended to get gummy. Maybe it's been reformulated since then, don't know. Sewing machine oil should do nicely, though.
I like to use Marvel Air Tool oil on rolling stock axles, it's plastic safe and lightweight, and I use Lucas Heavy Duty Air Tool "lubricant" on locomotive axles, also plastic safe but slightly thicker than the Marvel. The air tool stuff also contains rust inhibitors, not a bad idea for a garage setup like mine.
For grease I use a waterproof red grease that was marketed by BullShot as bicycle grease. It appears to be the red Lucas grease that some folks use, smells just like it too.
Although I'm only recently getting into 3-rail O trains, I've been using this stuff for years on HO equipment with no ill effects. Keep in mind the universal toy train lubricating principle - less is more. DO NOT overlubricate!
Quite frankly, I just don't see the point of coughing up seven bucks for two cents worth of lube that a marketeer buys in bulk and then repackages. However, if you feel like you are protecting some kind of "investment" (LOL) then by all means feel free to have your pocket picked.
Pete
"You can’t study the darkness by flooding it with light." - Edward Abbey -
Old post war engines are still running after years of 3-in-1 oil and vaseline. I have read that some even use motor oil as it being heavier will stay in place. Just watch for the safe for plastics label if you don't know the product.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Thanks to everyone for the input. I'm going to conclude that I didn't do any harm with the sewing machine lub (which is or seems to be just a light white grease not the oil and is in an old lead tube) and 3-in-1 oil. I used an empty Labelle's oil dispenser with that nice needle and just filled it with 3-in-1. Works great.
You want something to stick - how about chain saw chain oil????????? Probably not.
Got another question for you that are looking for another excuse to talk trains. We've been buying used track here and there and some need minor repair. Are those track pliers worth it for crimping the pins and ends of the tube track? I have more questions but I'll take a breather.
Thanks again, Mickey
Just re- enforcing what SJ said ... some oil/lubricants will deteriorate plastic ! Never use that white lithium grease ... either . I'm not going to specify what I use or what to use ... just starts an argument ...
I use all synthetics [oil and lube]. Funny, I had forgotten Singer. Used it as a kid on my Post Wars. They still run today.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Texas PeteI quit using 3-in-one long time ago (over 30 years!) because it tended to get gummy.
I quit using 3-in-one long time ago (over 30 years!) because it tended to get gummy.
Same here. I got my first Lionel in the early Fifties, and when I started bringing them back to life in the Seventies, the first thing I had to do was clean out the accumulated crud of all that old 3-in-1 oil. It didn't harm anything, it just made a mess in the long run.
The problem with 3 in 1 oil getting gummy is why I recommend 5W-20 engine oil. It won't get gummy because it has a low vapor pressure. I have a 55 year history of using engine oil for lubricating Lionel trains, and don't have any problems to report. It does stay on the gears. I recently cleaned some hardened grease out of the truck of a 2343, and it is clear that this type of grease should never be used for greasing a Lionel train.
One thing to remember, guys, is that we are dealing with items that have a very long life. The oldest Lionel train I have was made in 1915. The only thing I had to do to it was replace the wiring, and it is still running. Most items don't have lives of 100 years. So we need to lube out trains with stuff that doesn't dry out or harden with age. Once again, that is why I picked engine oil. Even in the crankcase of an engine at temperatures of 220 degrees or so, it doesn't thicken or harden. My friend who is a lubricants experts, says turbine oil would be better, but it is not enough better to warrant the added difficulty of obtaining it.
I use 5W-20 to lube everything: bearings, gears, couplers, bolsters, transformers, screws, switches. I even use it to lube the commutators on the motors, and it does not cause any problems. The 2343 that I cleaned up and relubed with 5W-20 will pull an 8 car train with 7 volts at the transformer. I have never seen a post war Lionel engine run so smoothly. It is a dual motor Santa Fe F-3.
Bruce Baker
Bruce,
I'm about to try motor oil on my Hudson. You say use 5W20. What about 5W30 or some other weight? Does it matter. I have plenty of 5W30 and others but no 5W20. I even have some non detergent motor oil.
Thanks,
I use Hoppes Gun oil and regular wheel bearing grease without any ill effects.
I used 5W-20 because it has a fairly low viscosity, and it is readily available. You could use 5W-30 without a problem. It has a slightly higher viscosity at high temperature, but I don't think anything on the train is going to get very hot. I used 20W-40 years ago with OK results. Higher viscosity oils will have a higher drag, but will stay in place better. Did you every try to wash 90 weight gear oil off of anything. It is difficult to remove even with kerosene. In my opinion, 90 wt is too heavy an oil for this application.
I just posted this in another topic so I'll just past it here for you.
Just my 2 cents... Why are you guy's putting a multi viscosity automotive oil onto your prized trains?
If I was going to run my trains on the back deck in Michigan on a nice January day at 4 degrees I would think about the 5 weight so it would flow a little easier. On the same token if my engine were running at 190 degrees and 9000 r.p.m. I would want the 20 weight to handle the heat and shear load.
I would be very concerned about modern additives that are being put into automotive type oil having a adverse affect on your models. These oils are designed for very extreme operations . High shear loads,combustion and extreme temperature swings just to name a few.. This is not a case of over kill this is a case of doing damage. You guy's do no that if automotive oil is not brought up to operating temperature on a regular bases it will start to absorb condensation and that if gone unchecked it will produce acids in the oil. This acid WILL start to attack metal...Ask any classic car guy about it.
I think Lionel and the others have done the home work. I'll stick with what they tell me to use...If you are concerned about your grease getting hard then you need to step up you P.M. ( preventative maintenance ) work.As far as some one telling me that they did a scientific test by running a few loco's around and looking at an amp load or voltage gauge I would call in to question the parameters of the said testing apparatis.
wiz1500Why are you guy's putting a multi viscosity automotive oil onto your prized trains?
It doesn't evaporate. It doesn't leave a gummy mess. It doesn't get hard. If you step up to Mobil 1 or Amsoil, it clings to metal surfaces & won't break down, it's super-slippery, and is retained well in oilite and other bushings, allowing long service intervals, smoother running, & longer trains with less wear.
It is also much less expensive than "hobby" oils & greases... some folks here have hundreds of locos and thousands of cars in their collections and maintaining them all could be a full-time job.
The multi-viscosity aspect is moot. A 5W-20 will be 5W for all uses in model trains.
wiz1500You guy's do no that if automotive oil is not brought up to operating temperature on a regular bases it will start to absorb condensation and that if gone unchecked it will produce acids in the oil.
This is completely false with regard to toy train use.
This would only be true only if the oil is subjected to combustion gasses and cooling cycles in the first place - like in a car engine. Not in your Lionel or American Flyer.
wiz1500I think Lionel and the others have done the home work. I'll stick with what they tell me to use...If you are concerned about your grease getting hard then you need to step up you P.M. ( preventative maintenance ) work.
Suit yourself, but why not take advantage of the newest technologies in lubricants to make the hobby more enjoyable for you?
Rob
I have been using the 3 in 1 motor oil with good effect as opposed to the regular 3 in 1. I do not really get it on any plastic parts. On the newer engines with plastic gears it would be best to use a plastic compatible oil but so far I have not seen any bad effects but I really only have a couple of those. I have some engines with plastic gears that I had as a child in the 1970s that have most likely had whatever oil (most likely 3 in 1 and or motor oil) was in my parents garage and they still run fine
dogdoc
Just like the manufactures recommended Oil
some folks here have hundreds of locos and thousands of cars in their collections and maintaining them all could be a full-time job.
That's not even worth a response.
Thanks for explaining my point...Just a quick question on this. Wasn't it you that said some where that you prefer 5w-20 over 5w-30 and why are you not using a straight weight?
So what is the temprature of the brush contact point at the brush plate when your pullmore motor is running at 18 volts AC and drawing down 4 or 5 amps. You know the motor that you just put automotive lube on the armature shaft and it has now slung it all over the brushes and plate ???
I don't think your lubes flash point will allow it to hold together and neither will my oil. The difference is what your oil leaves behind...... sulfated ash,zinc then you start getting into the detergents and other polymers.
Some people like replacing brushes and armatures. I don't..
Here is the big question..................If using automotive oil is such a good idea why is it that the manufactures are not using it or recommending the use of it. I would think that if this brings more play value and less possibility for warranty work they would be waving a big flag. Hey it's all good every one has there TRAIN of thought.LOL..We can agree to not agree.....I'll buy you a beer my friend..
Keith Podolan
P.S. From all that I've researched over the years the best oil on he market is Royal Purple That is the only thing that go's in all my race engines. Except the bikes because we have to lube a wet clutch in the trans along with motor. But that's all for another day..
wiz1500Just like the manufactures recommended Oil
Wrong. Lionel oil & lubricant is not synthetic(due to cost).
wiz1500That's not even worth a response.
Why not? Do you not believe this?
wiz1500Wasn't it you that said some where that you prefer 5w-20 over 5w-30
NO
and why are you not using a straight weight?
Simple... Mobil 1 does not come in straight weight.
wiz1500So what is the temprature of the brush contact point at the brush plate when your pullmore motor is running at 18 volts AC and drawing down 4 or 5 amps. You know the motor that you just put automotive lube on the armature shaft and it has now slung it all over the brushes and plate ??? I don't think your lubes flash point will allow it to hold together and neither will my oil. The difference is what your oil leaves behind...... sulfated ash,zinc then you start getting into the detergents and other polymers. Some people like replacing brushes and armatures. I don't..
Oil doesn't belong on brushes. The long term disadvantage outweighs the short term observed advantage.
wiz1500Here is the big question..................If using automotive oil is such a good idea why is it that the manufactures are not using it or recommending the use of it.
$$$ - cost. At the time of production, and when you buy hobby oil. They would rather sell you two 4 oz. bottles for the price of 32 oz. of Mobil 1.
Ok thanks for clearing all that up....Good luck . Have a nice day...
I find this discussion interesting because alot of my MTH and Williams owners literature say to use "a basic household oil" like 3-IN-One. My Dad used to use WEN barber clipper oil on our trains, with the needle (hyperdermic) applicator.
I use the 3-In-One, but only because the newer engines I have say so. I am interested on testing out the 20W-50 oil that Bruce described. I haven't seen any gumming yet, but I don't doubt the guys who say it does.
I still have some old Lionel Lubricant tubes of grease that Dad got sometime either back in the late 50's (orange and white tube). I don't know if its any good or not, I've never used it, just keep it around because it looks cool.
Now we can discuss how/which lubricants in a tube, tub, or bottle hold up over time, which are better, and how to correctly store them. Though it was time for a little comic relief.
RockIsland52 Now we can discuss how/which lubricants in a tube, tub, or bottle hold up over time, which are better, and how to correctly store them. Though it was time for a little comic relief. Jack
Well let me start be telling you that you should...............LMAO....
You are right Jack every one take a breath...lolol
My point in all this is that you should realy no what you are putting in or on your prized train.. Just because someone said it's the way to do it dosen't make it right..I Iook to the engineering design team that built the piece in the first place because at the end of the day they are the ones that have done the home work. These guy's have looked at the base stock of there oils and done the research to make sure that there will be no long term negative effects by the use of said oil. You have to look at things like, If I get this oil on the paint of my $2000 Accela (which I own) and I don't clean it off because a failed to see it. Will the Anti- Foaming agents in automotive oil soften the paint at some point down the road?? Or will the alkalinity of said auto oil start attack the already soft casting of my Hudson? For me I will not risk it, I don't need a seal swell agent taking my decals off because someone thought the were smarter then the guy's who designed are toys. I have seen people quote rocket scientist, doctors and god knows who ever else but I have yet to see anyone give a name or a quote from an engineer that works in the field we are talking about...HMMMM.....
Stick with what you no works and what works for me is what the manufacture tells me to use....
Just my 2 cents... I have given my opinion..
Have a great day folks...
P.S. If I was going to use an auto oil it would be a 0 weight anyway ... They don't even have the weight right..lolol
wiz1500...If I was going to use an auto oil it would be a 0 weight anyway ... They don't even have the weight right..lolol
I have used Mobil 1 0W (0W-20 - or just 0W on train equipment - will never change for our uses) with great success. You cant really tell the difference from the 5W oils, though.
I have yet to see anyone give a name or a quote from an engineer that works in the field we are talking about...HMMMM.....
I have consulted one engineer friend who is an expert on lubricants, and I have another one I can consult. The second one owns a consulting company and advises the aerospace/defense industry in Los Angeles about bearings and lubricants. I will run some of these comments past him and see what he says.
servoguyI will run some of these comments past him and see what he says.
Better send them a link to the entire post. There's a lot here.
Guys, what we really need here is engineering test data on the various lubricants. These may be available on the Internet or from the manufacturer. IMHO, if the manufacturer won't provide data, their lubricants are off of my list. The compatibility with plastic for most of my engines and cars is not an issue as they are metal. I have some newer cars with plastic trucks, and so it may be an issue for these cars. While there are some odds that the engine oil I am using is not compatible with some plastics, I don't think we will find it to be an issue. For hard plastics, like the brush plates on a 736 or 2343, I am sure there is no issue. I have a 736 that I have had for 35 years, and I used engine oil on it 35 years ago. I will check it and verify that there is no problem with the engine oil.
Anyone who has been using a certain type of lubricants for a long time should tell us all how long the lubes have been used, and how long an engine has been stored without being lubed and what the condition of the engine was after storage. That gives us some information about the long term life of the lube.
JLC and AC Gilbert must be looking down and laughing with each other as JLC says,"AC, boy all we did was manufacture simple TOY TRAINS and these guys are having lengthy discussions on what type of oil to lube ther locos with." I know that everybody wants to use what is best, but there are so many lubricants on the market and each one has their good points. This reminds me of a discussion we had about lubricating a chain on a piece of equipment at work with the manufactures reps. and they both disagreed with on the proper type of lube. The product that the manual called for was discontinued.
This is a great disussion and everyone has valid points. But the wrong lube can do more damage than good.
Bruce, I used 5w20 on my a #53 Rio Grande Snow Plow that I purchased recently that had running problems. It worked great and the unit now runs superb. Thank you.
John
The manufacturers don't always give you the best information. Let me give you some real examples:
I drove several Mercedes from 1984 to the present. Several 450 SELs, one 450 SL, two 380 SEs. Mercedes claimed for a long time that their organic brake pads were the best. I knew they were lying. I used semi metalic pads on all my cars, and the first 450 SEL I bought went to its grave at over 400k miles with the ORIGINAL rotors. Organic pads make a lot of money for the dealer. Several years ago, Car & Driver tested organic v. semimetalic pads, and the semimetalic pads were siginificantly better. 2nd example of the cars "engineered like no other cars in the world." In the SOHC V-8 engines, the wizards used plastic chain guides. These chain guides would brake and occasionally get between the sprocket and chain on the driver's side and grenade the engine. Cost to fix? 10 years ago it was $2200+. The aftermarket got wise and started making aluminum chain guides which never broke. Do you think Mercedes had enough respect for their customers to advise them to use the aluminum guides? Ha ha. I have a box full of bent valves to prove this. These same wizards made the engine block for the 450 V-8s out of nodular iron which cost more than gray iron and lasts forever. At 200k miles, I took the heads off an engine and the hone marks were still visible in the cylinder walls. But they put plastic parts inside the engine to save $3. I bought a much used 300SD a few years ago with the idea of converting it to run on vegetable oil. While I had the car, I checked the accuracy of the odometer. It showed 15% more miles than the car actually traveled. You don't suppose they did this on purpose to enhance the car's mileage, do you? It's a digital speedometer running off of a code wheel on the transmission tailshaft. I never saw a Mercedes odometer than ran more than 150k before it failed. The window regulators in the S class cars up through 1980 were made from die cast zinc. Zinc is not a structural metal. The castings would cold flow and the gears would get out of mesh, and the casting would eventually break at about 100k miles. This regulator cost $125 several years ago, and took about 4 hours to install. As far as I know, MB and BMW are still using die cast zinc. At the same time, they used a window motor that would last forever except they used a cheap paper gasket to seal the gearbox, and the paper gasket would sometimes let water into the gearbox and the gearbox would seize up. Chevrolet uses stamped steel which lasts forever, and they use a cheap motor which costs $40 and is easy to replace and usually lasts 200k.
Similarly, BMW made a blower speed controller for many years that had 4 bipolar transistors wired in series with no emitter resistors. This sterling design would always eventually fail. The part cost $225 at the dealers. A mechanic friend of mine and I spent Sat afternoon several years ago redesigning this controller so it would never fail. He charges his customers $225 for the new design including the labor to install it, and they now have a device with an infinite life. The parts cost to do this is $5. Some years ago, I had an engineer from BMW in my office discussing motion bases. I brought up this sterling design, and he admitted that they knew about it, but they never fixed it.
The point is, don't necessarily believe anything the manufacturer tells you. He may have a hidden agenda.
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