Ok I’m sure this has been asked before, but I just can’t get the hang of the search function here, so I’m going to ask.
I understand if you add more cars especially operating cars, you need more power. If you add more trains, you’re going to need another transformer. Your not going to run them on the same track and transformer, are you? I’ve read about people wanting more power because the extended their layout. I don’t know what they mean by that, but you don’t need more power to add track.
I see that the big ZW can run 4 separate trains which is convent because it all in one package, plus the extra advantage of adding accessories. But isn’t it still like having 4 smaller transformers.
How much power does one actually need per train. I have these CW80s and it’s a lot more power than I can use right now. Anything over 1/2 throttle and I’m sending trains through the wall. I did buy more trains, but I don’t plan on running them on the same track with other trains.
I’m trying to justify paying $400 to buy a ZW when I can buy a CW80 for $100. I kind of like the idea of having separate transformers so that I can remember which is which. And if one takes a dump, I only need to replace one.
SleeperN06 Ok I’m sure this has been asked before, but I just can’t get the hang of the search function here, so I’m going to ask. I understand if you add more cars especially operating cars, you need more power. If you add more trains, you’re going to need another transformer. Your not going to run them on the same track and transformer, are you? I’ve read about people wanting more power because the extended their layout. I don’t know what they mean by that, but you don’t need more power to add track. I see that the big ZW can run 4 separate trains which is convent because it all in one package, plus the extra advantage of adding accessories. But isn’t it still like having 4 smaller transformers. How much power does one actually need per train. I have these CW80s and it’s a lot more power than I can use right now. Anything over 1/2 throttle and I’m sending trains through the wall. I did buy more trains, but I don’t plan on running them on the same track with other trains. I’m trying to justify paying $400 to buy a ZW when I can buy a CW80 for $100. I kind of like the idea of having separate transformers so that I can remember which is which. And if one takes a dump, I only need to replace one.
Complicated question. Lots of folks prefer a number of small transformers to one big one, for the exact reasons you mention. Others, however, like the look and feel of the big ones. The postwar ZW, for example, although marked 275 watts, will actually put out about 190. However, it can distribute that power different ways: If you only hook up the A-U pair to the track, you have the full 190 watts available to your track. If you try to run four different trains at the same time on for separate tracks, you will have about 48 watts available for each train. Other transformers may apportion their outputs different ways.
The CW-80 has about 80 watts output. (Most modern transformers indicate their true output power, either in watts or volt-amps. Most postwar transformers are rated by their input wattage, not their output.)
Some folks prefer to rate the transformers in terms of the amperes that the device can safely supply before overheating. The postwar ZW is about 15 amps, the KW about 10, the 1033/1044 about 4.5; the CW-80 about 5, the MTH Z-1000 about six, etc. Circuit breakers or other devices designed to protect the transformer itself and its associated layout wiring are generally factory-set at these values. These devices protect the transformer from overcurrents. Other devices are needed to protect any electronic devices from over-voltages.
Modern can motors generally draw considerably less current than the old Lionel pre- and post-war motors, such as the Pulmor-types. There is a chart in the Olsen's site on the generic page for transformers that can be of some help in estimating the amps drawn by various devices that one might connect to the transformer. It's a bit dated, but in general modern stuff will be a little more efficient. Link that should get you close shown below.
On a layout, the draw from lamps adds up faster than most operators realize. Many people mitigate this by substituting LED's for incandescents, and/or using separate transformers for the accessories.
Modern rail cars generally are lighter than postwar, and roll more smoothly; so, other things being equal, you can run longer trains than with heavier cars. Freight cars draw less than passenger cars.
50 to 100 actual watts (or 4.5 to 6 amps) will easily power a train on many home layouts. Dual motors, early air whistles, illuminated passenger cars, very long trains, etc. can be challenging.
Lionel has always made "starter-set" transformers of limited capability. The Tim-the-tool-man types will never be satisfied with them. The MTH Z-4000 will produce about 400 watts, and the Lionel modern ZW with four 180 watt 'bricks" will deliver about 720. Unfortunately there is little being manufactured today between these behemoths and the MTH Z-1000 and the Lionel modern ZW.
Principally because of differences in output waveforms, some of these transformers "do not play well" with equipment of other manufacturers. I would say that the most versatile small transformer on the market today is the MTH Z-1000. I personally like the Lionel CW-80 type and use them in my quite modest layout, but they do not work well with certain MTH equipment, for example.
By "extending their layout" most folks mean adding more track, lamps, and powered accessories. I personally do not recommend attaching more than one transformer to the same section of track. Some people divide their trackage into "blocks" which might utilize more than one transformer. The larger transformers may put out and honest 18, 20 or even 24 volts. The smaller ones may be limited to about 16 volts. The length of track doesn't mean much, although multiple power-drops (connections between transformer and track) may be necessary for smoothest operation.
I currently power my locomotives, including dual-motor post-war types, one at a time, with a single CW-80, and have a second one for accessories and lights. I use both the throttle and the accessory taps on the second CW-80. I also have two postwar ZW's, a KW. a 1033, and a 1032 for my workshop, and like them all, but for day to day operation, I use the CW-80's
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd1.htm
Read the generic section marked "Transformers" all the way to the bottom.
Hope this helps a little. Enough for tonite.
... you do hae a legitimate fire extinguisher handy when you conduct your "how much power do I need" experiments, right?
Sleeper, BF did a pretty good job explaining and I add a little more clarification.
It's not just the rated watts of the transformer, but the continuous output. The 1033 (my transformer of choice) is rated at 90 watts, but has a continuous output of around 5 amps. The 250 watt ZW has a continuous output of 14 amps. Of course, this can diminish some as the transformer warms over a long period of use.
But in answering your question of how much power do you need to run a train, that depends of the type of train. A Lionel loco with a small open frame AC motor uses 15-25 watts of power. A larger loco with a whistle and smoke unit can use 30-45 watts of power. Modern locos with DC can motors only will use far less power than a postwar locomotive. Adding digital extras such as TMCC and speed control, even with a DC motor, will use more power than the DC motored loco.
Now add in lights, which draw more power than you'd think. A typical 12 volt light bulb will draw 2 watts, whereas a large 12 volt bulb will draw 3 watts. The strain of many lights and continuous operation accessories off the auxiliary post of any transformer being used to also run the train will also cause the transformer to warm up quicker and become less efficient.
On my layout, since I run many DC can motored locos - that require less power, I have also changed all lights in train cars to lower voltage bulbs. This not only gives me brighter illumination at the lower voltage range I am running the trains at, but also conveniently uses less overall power.
I've done the same thing on my layout with lights in buildings, street lights, etc. They are all anywhere from 3-7 volt mini bulbs. This means I can get more lights on my layout using one smaller power source. It also means I have to use an adjustable post for the lights and not a set voltage post of say the typical 14 volts. Or I could use one of the lower set accessory voltage posts.
It sounds complicated, but it's really a matter of chosing what kinds of trains you want to run. The power needs of trains with DC can motors only, modern command equipped locos, postwar and MPC locos with open frame AC motors are all different. A caboose with a 12 volt bulb will be suitably bright being pullled with a small postwar or MPC locomotive, but will be pretty dim with a diesel locomotive with DC can motors located in the trucks. On the other hand, using the typical Lionel 4-4-2 steam engine with smoke (and a DC can motor), the 12 volt bulb in the caboose will be suitably bright, as this loco uses a little more power.
Today, the train hobby is greater than ever with all the choices we have. But those choices also complicate things a little and you have to decide what kinds of trains you'll be running, along with their power needs and then choose a transfromer accordingly.
I just tried to keep this in practical and simple terms, which is also how I understand it. Lionelsoni (our resident electrical expert), if he notices this post, could offer much more specific info that sometimes can make my head spin.
Now there's an idea for a new accessory - My Spinning Head, powered by Bob's accurate (yet for me sometimes a little overwhelming) information.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
There was a real good article in CTT within the past couple of years on determining transformer needs.
Jim
Sturgeon-Phish There was a real good article in CTT within the past couple of years on determining transformer needs. Jim
I would say "pretty good." It contained one glaring error, where a transformer that was capable of putting out 180 watts was listed at 18, if I recall correctly. I don't know whether CTT got any of them corrected, or whether all copies read the same way.
By the way, a lot of transformers will tell you when they are seriously overloaded by blowing their fuses or tripping their circuit breakers. The CW-80 models will warn you that you are approaching the limits of its power capabilities; and, if the condition persists, it will "fold-back" (reduce) the power to protect itself, even if you don't. A little blinking now and then doesn't hurt anything, but it annoys some people, apparently. I find it reassuring in that it shows that the self-protective circuitry is on-duty and working.
Many of the post-war transformers will far exceed the ratings* of their circuit-breakers, and may quietly simmer, with the thermal-breaker not tripping until things get very hot indeed. One of the things that get hot in a very dangerous way are the wires on and under the layout. I also fuse my post-war transformers at no more (and sometimes less) than their rated output in amps. I also use Transient Voltage Supressor Diodes (TVS) to protect the electronics in my modern locomotives, rolling stock, and "solid-state" accessories. They are not needed with strictly post-war equipment, but at about 50 cents apiece, what do you have to lose? Sooner or later some modern transistorized stuff will appear on your layout, and fuses/circuit breakers, even those claiming to be "high-speed", will NOT protect it.
Some possible hook-ups on pre-and postwar transformers are not protected by their-circuit breakers. Some early transformers have no internal circuit-breakers at all. Lionelsoni is an authority on this. One respected guru on another forum has called the popular post-war ZW transformers an "electrocution waiting to happen." Those transformers were so over-built they are virtual Three-Mile-Islands if not properly fused.
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Wow this is all really great stuff, thanks. It’s going to take me a little while to digest it all.
Some points like continuous output and the differences in transformer ratings are things that I’m aware of but for some reason I did not even think about for toy trains.
I hear an awful lot about Waveforms even in my work and I’ve even been to school on them, so I do know what they are. As a technician I just look to see if I have the correct one on my test equipment and if not I adjust or replace something. I don’t understand enough to relate them to my transformers and toy trains, but I may bring home a scope from work and check it out.
I am interested in lamp sizes and I’m going to look into that some more. My electric bill each month is outrageous and if I’m ever going to afford to retire, I need to get a handle on it. I went to all LED on my N-scale and with the exception for my wife’s porcelain house Christmas display, I don’t plan on having any lighting except in my passenger cars and road crossings. If I can considerably lower my power consumption with LED, than I might add more lighting.
And speaking of utility bills, would 4 small transformers use more input power than a one large one? I know BF mentioned that “Most postwar transformers are rated by their input wattage”. It might have been mentioned here and I missed it. I have not checked to see what the input rating of transformers are yet, but I’m going to look as soon as I post this.
Oh before I forget to 11th Street, what do you mean by “a legitimate fire extinguisher handy”?
If your CW-80s are doing the job then you have enough power for now. As stated above if you should buy an MTH engine you will probably need a Z1000, it's not a power issue they just don't seem to like the CW-80.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
The input wattages (more or less) of pre-and post-war transformers are generally written on the transformer, often as part of its name. The ZW's are 275 watts input generally, whereas KW's are "190" and 1033's are "90". Close enough for government work.
A lot of folks seem to think that the "90-watt" 1033, a well built and reliable transformer, will put out more power than a CW-80. Not so, in my experience. The modern CW-80 will put out its rated 80 watts (volt-amps, actually) whereas the 1033's will put out only about 60 watts when properly fused. If their circuit-breaker is stuck closed, however, as many are, the 1033 can be overdriven. The CW-80's cannot. Both can deliver 5 amps continuously, according to Lionel literature.
Some years ago I did a "field test" in my basement comparing a 1033 and a CW-80. It is important to note that each was fused at 5-amps, their "offical rating. Various "loads" were used, including the post-war twin-motor diesels and large steam locos with post-war air whistles. The loads were increased, generally by adding one passenger car at a time, without blowing the fuse, until the transformer couldn't push the train any longer. The CW-80 exceeded the 1033 in every test.
So if you believe your CW-80 provides all the power you need, it probably does. It will run 'most any single train as well as a ZW or a Z-4000 will, if the train is a reasonable size; but in order to power a large layout and/or run very longs trains or multiple trains from a single transformer, you need bigger ones. By the way, the post-war ZW's were often pictured running four trains simultaneously, which was possible but not very handy. It supplied easy-to-use throttle handles and whistle/horn controls for only two at a time.
sir james I If your CW-80s are doing the job then you have enough power for now. As stated above if you should buy an MTH engine you will probably need a Z1000, it's not a power issue they just don't seem to like the CW-80.
True. CW-80's are not and never have been on MTH's list of compatible transformers. But such limitations work both ways. Just yesterday I read that the vaunted MTH Z-4000 will not blow Lionel RailSounds whistles; although the Z-1000 will. I don't know whether it's true, but it pays to read the fine print. It's why I called the MTH Z-1000 "the most versatile" of the transformers currently on the market. I like the features of the revised CW-80's myself, but mine will not run my one MTH loco, 1996 vintage, with ProtoSounds. To be clear, the MTH loco will not budge, although it runs just fine on all of my post-war transformers. YMMV.
The cw80's were never intended to run anything other than barely getting a starter set moving . As far as the Z4000 not functioning on even bells and whistles = conventional= .... that fellow read a untrue report .... a bare cw will not function railsounds either .... it takes a seperate control system to activate railsounds on any transformer .... even the most expensive . The difference between a Z1000 and a Z4000 is like comparing a bicycle to a sports car . The cw80 was designed by lionel to only be the most basic power supply and they will tell you so ... and man are the newer ones are ALOT better than the older design ! Always look for or ask the manufacturing date before buying one though . It all depends if you want to keep stacking alot of power supplies/transformers or using just 1 larger one .
The older ZW's are famous for frying circuit board engines .... the newer models are great and Lionel has done a great job of updating them .... as they are completely different than the older models .... really a totally different system altogether although they look the same ..... they are NOT ! The only problem was they took a few years to catch up to MTH Z4000's ... and alot of folks fried alot of engines with the older models . The new ZW's are great .
SleeperN06I see that the big ZW can run 4 separate trains which is convent because it all in one package, plus the extra advantage of adding accessories. But isn’t it still like having 4 smaller transformers... I’m trying to justify paying $400 to buy a ZW when I can buy a CW80 for $100. I kind of like the idea of having separate transformers so that I can remember which is which. And if one takes a dump, I only need to replace one......And speaking of utility bills, would 4 small transformers use more input power than a one large one?
The "new" ZW is actually 4 separate transformers(2 come with it - 2 more can be added) controlled by one "box".
The CW can be acquired on eBay from set break-ups for ~ $40 - $50 including shipping. This makes it quite a bargain.
If you are concerned about the electric bill for your trains, you are in the wrong hobby. A CW at full power is about 1 cent per hour to operate.
Rob
Ole Timer The cw80's were never intended to run anything other than barely getting a starter set moving .
The cw80's were never intended to run anything other than barely getting a starter set moving .
Horse hockey! What is true is that the CW-80s are inexpensive to make, not designed to be repaired, and are considered to be throw-aways. The early ones suffered from dreadful quality control, but the Lionel replacement service was easy and prompt -- within the warranty period. The revised ones are much more reliable. My CW-80s will throw a post-war Lionel dual horizontal motors New York Central A-A F-3 diesel and five illuminated passenger cars at "de-rail speeds" on 0-31 tubular track.
You may be confusing the lower powered PowerMax and PowerMax Plus with the CW-80. But you're right that it is silly to compare a CW-80 to a ZW of any vintage, or to a Z-4000. You have to specify limits on what you are asking it to do, as "SleeperN06" has pretty-well done.
But some folks just have to have the biggest house on the block or the biggest boat; and people seem never to be satisfied with what they have and covet a bigger one. More power to them. I personally think that the combination of one large transformer and several small ones makes for a very versatile layout.
A lot of folks like the big MTH Z-4000. I think it's as ugly as a wart on the end of your nose, but having meters would be nice. If I were going TMCC or Legacy or any of that other fancy electronic stuff, I'd be tempted by the modern Lionel ZW-with-bricks, but I run strictly "traditional" and neither desire the fancy stuff nor post about it.
I see that the big ZW can run 4 separate trains which is convent because it all in one package, plus the extra advantage of adding accessories. But isn’t it still like having 4 smaller transformers...
I’m trying to justify paying $400 to buy a ZW when I can buy a CW80 for $100. I kind of like the idea of having separate transformers so that I can remember which is which. And if one takes a dump, I only need to replace one...
...And speaking of utility bills, would 4 small transformers use more input power than a one large one?
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NO ! a world of difference ! The zw uses bricks..... large transformers = usually 180 watts each = seperate supplies controlled by 1 main controller and much higher output and reliability ..... if one blows you only replace it .... not the whole system . Of course you can add bricks to a z4000 setup also .... but that's a whole different ballgame .
I just saw a new CW80 for $90 and was about to buy it, but I think I’ll wait for the moment.
Ole Timer NO ! a world of difference ! The zw uses bricks..... large transformers = usually 180 watts each = seperate supplies controlled by 1 main controller and much higher output and reliability ..... if one blows you only replace it .... not the whole system . Of course you can add bricks to a z4000 setup also .... but that's a whole different ballgame .
I’m confused! I don’t know what you mean by “bricks”. Is this something that is inside the ZW unit?
SleeperN06The talk about MTH engines & CW80 has me worrying about the Williams AMTRAK GENESIS Engines that I just bought. They should arrive any day now. I’m I going to have any problems with that combination? I just saw a new CW80 for $90 and was about to buy it, but I think I’ll wait for the moment.
For what it's worth, which may not be much as the sample size is small. I have had no problems with my Williams* locomotives powered by CW-80's. Good luck, and report your experiences.
By the way, do you have the correct owner's manual for your CW-80? You can read and/or download one at Lionel.com, Customer Service. Make sure you get the correct Manual, as there are two.
* Pre-Bachmann era
bfskinner By the way, do you have the correct owner's manual for your CW-80? You can read and/or download one at Lionel.com, Customer Service. Make sure you get the correct Manual, as there are two. * Pre-Bachmann era
Yes, thanks. I did download it. I don’t know why it didn’t come with the set, but I only just learned about programming the fixed voltage after all these years.
Sleeper, one thing that the Owner's Manual does not make clear is that it seems to be a very good idea to have the accessory (or accessories) connected while you are programming the Accessory-post settings. That way, you can watch the behavior of the accessories (brightness of the lamps, speed of powered accessories, such as coal loaders, etc.) and not have to worry about measuring voltages, which on a CW-80 is neither easy nor accurate.
To expand just a bit on the differences between "transformer designs," the post-war Lionel ZW and the modern MTH Z-4000 have everything contained inside one case. So does the CW-80. Such devices are relatively heavy for their size.
Many of the other modern transformers, including the new Lionel ZW's come in two or more separate units, a controller unit that looks like the post-war ones (but is relative,ly light for it's size because all that is inside are electronics and heat-sinks) and one or more separate bricks. The actual "transformers" (which are, of course, heavy steel cores wrapped in copper windings) are inside the separate "bricks. As ADCX Rob said above, you can connect as many as 4 bricks to a modern ZW, each providing 180 watts of output power. Then you would have five individual cases, one with handles, the rest without. The modern ZW doesn't produce power inside the case, it merely controls the power that comes from the bricks.
The MTH Z-1000 is also a "controller" that uses a brick, but I believe the Z-4000 is self-contained.
Note: For a short period around 2001, Lionel produced a two-unit device known as a BW-80. It had a case that closely resembled that of the later CW-80, but it had a separate brick. While lacking at least one of the features of the later CW-80, it put out 80 watts (volt-amps) and was apparently quite reliable. They are highly prized on the auction houses, by those who recognize them.
Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson often comes up out of the tank like Flipper when someone calls the CW-80 a transformer, even though it does get its output-power from an actual transformer inside the case.* As I understand him, the word "transformer" ought to be reserved for a device that simply steps AC voltage up or down. He is doubtless correct; but, alas, common toy-train parlance seems to use "transformer" to refer to anything that has a handle or knob on it and controls the speed of a train. ** Its origins go back to the pre-WWII period, when many transformers had only a true transformer and a throttle knob, with no built-in whistle control, circuit-breakers etc. Such usage is likely to continue. I call the CW-80 a "transformer/controller" but it hasn't really caught on.
*With a true transformer, the wave-form that goes in to the primary winding (generally a sine wave) emerges relatively unchanged at the output of the secondary winding. By contrast, what goes into the case of a CW-80 is a sine-wave, but what comes out is a different wave-form altogether.
** Two-rail toy trains are often powered by Direct Current. There is no such thing as a DC transformer, due to the annoying-but-insistent Laws of Physics. Operators of HO and similar trains call the devices that control the speed "Power Packs," or perhaps "Controllers" -- to the best of my understanding.
Lunch time.
Ole Timer The cw80's were never intended to run anything other than barely getting a starter set moving . As far as the Z4000 not functioning on even bells and whistles = conventional= .... that fellow read a untrue report .... a bare cw will not function railsounds either .... it takes a seperate control system to activate railsounds on any transformer .... even the most expensive . The difference between a Z1000 and a Z4000 is like comparing a bicycle to a sports car . The cw80 was designed by lionel to only be the most basic power supply and they will tell you so ... and man are the newer ones are ALOT better than the older design ! Always look for or ask the manufacturing date before buying one though . It all depends if you want to keep stacking alot of power supplies/transformers or using just 1 larger one . The older ZW's are famous for frying circuit board engines .... the newer models are great and Lionel has done a great job of updating them .... as they are completely different than the older models .... really a totally different system altogether although they look the same ..... they are NOT ! The only problem was they took a few years to catch up to MTH Z4000's ... and alot of folks fried alot of engines with the older models . The new ZW's are great .
Sorry Ole Timer,
I have to call you on this one also, To say that "The CW-80's were never intended to run anything other than barely getting a starter set moving." is just wrong, I have run my dual motored LionMaster Challengers just fine with 15 freight cars, it was when I coupled up the 8 car passenger train (18" K-Line heavy weights, with 4 bulbs per car) that it overloaded the CW-80, NOT what I would call a starter set.
Contention #2, The CW-80 WILL function Railsounds just fine, I use several CW-80's and have a lot of Railsounds Locomotives. The need for a seperate control system, is for TMCC/Legacy/DCS functiuons, NOT Railsounds.
bf, has one of the few MTH Proto-Sounds 1(PS1) locomotives that I have heard of that don't p[lay nicely with the CW-80. All of my PS1 locomotives played nicely with my CW-80's, including using the remote coupler function. My PS2 locomotives on the other hand, are all over the place on how they react to the CW-80's PHASE CONTROL output.I have not had any trouble running any locomotives other than MTH PS2 with my CW-80's. I like the CW-80 better than the MTH Z-1000 for several reasons, the Z-1000 has only a fixed voltage (14V, IIRC) accessory tap, and too high of a minimum starting voltage for many locomotives(this was recently discussed in the Speedy Docksider thread). Many locomtives such as the K-Line Porters, Plymouths, RMT Beeps many DC can motored locomotives such as the common/popular Lionel starter set 4-4-2's need a lower minimum voltage to start smoothly and run slowly. My other dislike about the Z-1000(and Z-500,750) is purely asethetic, and personal opinion, but to ME, it looks like some thing from a cheap HO starter set.
The CW-80 has an adjustable accessory output and a near zero minimum starting voltage. Another thing that I like about the CW-80, is that the green pilot light will flash when approaching it's output limits, and then automatically reset itself when the overload is removed. The Z-1000 does not give any overload warning and has a manually reset breaker, which if your power brick is mounted out of sight under the table, can be an inconvenience when trouble shooting a short circuit. To ME, the CW-80 just looks better on a control panel, than the Z-1000 does, and is a self contained unit, without the seperate power brick. As mentioned by others the CW-80 can be very affordable as well, if one shops around.
If you are running MTH PS2 locomotives, the CW-80 is not a good choice, if you are not running PS2 locomotives, then the CW-80 is an EXCELLENT transformer within it's power capabilities. YMMV.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Let me take issue with a couple of things:
"On the other hand, using the typical Lionel 4-4-2 steam engine with smoke (and a DC can motor), the 12 volt bulb in the caboose will be suitably bright, as this loco uses a little more power." Don't confuse power with voltage. The caboose has no way of responding to the locomotive's power consumption. Its lamp responds entirely to the voltage on the track. At that voltage, the locomotive's power is the voltage multiplied by the current that it is drawing. This can be large or small, depending on the locomotive and how much it is pulling.
"...I can get more lights on my layout using one smaller power source." It is true that lower-voltage incandescent lamps put out more light for the same power; but the effect is slight. For example, compare the number 53 and 51 lamps. These are both G-3 1/2 size, put out the same 1 mean spherical candlepower at their rated voltages, and last for the same average of 1000 hours. The 53 is rated for 14.4 volts and draws 120 milliamperes, the 51 for 7.5 volts and 220 milliamperes. So the 53 consumes 1728 milliwatts and the 51, 1650 milliwats, only about a 5 percent difference.
Any generalization about incandescent lamps needs to take into account that their behavior is a complicated interplay among voltage, current, efficacy, and lifetime. Specifically, current varies as the .55 power of voltage, efficacy as the 3.5 power, and lifetime as the -12 power. These extremely non-linear relationships make generalization tricky, to say the least.
Bob Nelson
Bob, Your explanations are always so precise. I'm not confused, but you do explain things better than I do when it comes to electrical stuff.
I know the caboose light has no way of responding to the loco's power needs. But if you take a postwar caboose with a typical 14-18 volt bulb common in those cars and run that with a typical low end diesel with DC can motors, the light in the caboose won't get very bright at all, unless that loco is running full blast. So that's why I've changed my light sockets and bulbs to the mini-Christmas bulbs.
Typically early in the holiday season, you can find these separate sale bulbs in replacement pack of either 6 volt, 5-7 volt and 12 volt varities, and these are what I use. These tend to be gone by the time the December 26th sales roll along. In some of my passenger cars, I've used the 3.5 volt variety bulbs, but with the lights wired in series. It all works for me. But again, the kinds of locos I run don't need as much power to get going.
I discovered with these same bulbs, I can far more buildings and street lights run off one single transformer with no overload. I've invented my own streetlights using these mini-bulbs with a drinking straw over the bulb and a piece of pie-tin cut to fit over the bulb inside the straw, thus focusing the light downward. I understand with the "auto" types of bulbs you mentioned, there isn't a lot of significant difference. One of the nice things about buying these bulbs at Radio Shack, is the specs are listed on the packages.
I cut the number of transformers I was once using in half when I switched from the more traditional larger "automotive" bulbs typically used in Lionel trains to the mini-Christmas types of bulbs. Which are also much cheaper, especially after Christmas. Years ago, I found a bunch of mini-light strings on sale which had 6 volt round globe bulbs. I bought 4 or 5 of those and I'm still using those bulbs, which do seem to put out a more broad illumination versus the thin more common style.
Ole Timer,
I'm not sure we are a far apart as it sometimes appears, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to generalize successfully. For example, there are several versions of RailSounds, and also the issues of what a given transformer can get a RailSounds tender (or boxcar) to do are complex to say the least. I doubt that they can be summed up in a sentence or two.
You say that "the older ZW's are famous for frying circuit-board engines" but by "older" are you referring to the self-contained post-war ZW's or to early versions of the modern ZW's with the bricks?
Assuming that it's the post-war ones that you are talking about, what would have caused this. Are we certain it was the transformer, per se? Is it something inherent in the post-war ZW's themselves, or simply that folks were not accustomed to protecting their circuit-boards with TVS diodes; possibly believing that the v-e-r-y slow ZW circuit-breakers, or even "high-speed" fuses, were going to protect them? I have used post-war ZW transformers with modern equipment PROTECTED BOTH BY FUSES against overcurrents, as well as TVS DIODES against voltage spikes, and haven't blown a circuit- board yet. But, tomorrow is another day....
Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson has posted some very interesting text about what actually happens during a typical short-circuit. It's in the archives of this forum, and ought to be required reading, IMHO.
Sheesh, I can't even seem to persuade people that there is an enormous difference between the early-release CW-80's and the revised ones. They go on Ebay and see "new, in box" and assume that they are getting a revised one. Not so fast, Kemo-Sabe!
Here's the recent quotation from the OGR forum from which I got the notion that the MTH Z-4000 had "issues" with Lionel RailSounds. I didn't make it up, but I don't feel that I know the whole truth either.
"This issue has been discussed in great length with the first release of CC GG1 and FM Trainmaster and it looks like Lionel may have not corrected that issue. The CC horn/bell functions would not work with the Z4000 without a horn activation button that Lionel sells seperately. However, the horn/bell functions work with the DCS remote when running in conventional."
How can a relative newbie, such as our new friend "Sleeper" make any sense out of all this?
bfskinner How can a relative newbie, such as our new friend "Sleeper" make any sense out of all this?
Yes, you can say that again! There sure is a lot of information here and I’m still working on it.
Anyway I downloaded the manual for the ZW so now I understand it a little better. I thought those “blocks” where accessory/auxiliary transformers. I had no idea.
So if I understand this correctly I need the 6-32930 ZW controller w/ 2 tranformers at $450 and two 6-22983 Powerhouse Power Supplys at $85 each for a grand total of $600 just to run 4 trains. Well that leaves me out. As long as I can buy a CW-80 for $90, I’m staying with the CW-80.
I just wanted to add a little someting about the railsounds thing. Now I’m not even going to pretend that I know anything about TMCC and railsounds. My brother-in-law was running 4 trains and 4 transformers of various sizes and brands for 20 years without any problems. Last year he picked up a TMCC loco from a guy who lost his job and needed the money. He had given me a large box of N-scale stuff so in appreciation, I bought him a TMCC controller. We just connected it to one of his existing transformers. Neither one of us knew anything about TMCC and went with the advice of the local dealer. I don’t know what transformers he had, only that most it was 20 years or older. It was working great as far as I know, but I had to leave before he learned how to work all the functions. I assume its working fine because he just bought another TMCC Loco this past October.
Someday I would like to have railsounds but for now I need to keep it simple because of the expense of it all.
Johnny B,
Please don't confuse Railsounds with Command Control (TMCC/Legacy, in Lionel's case). There are several different versions of Railsounds, and to the best of my knowledge, they are all usable in conventional control, but TMCC/Legacy may give you more that you can control with Railsounds. RailSounds equipped, and TMCC/Legacy equipped are NOT the same thing, there are many, many Railsounds locomotives available, that are not TMCC/Legacy equipped.
With the "New ZW", you do not need to have 4 power bricks to run 4 trains. I don't, and I don't believe that Lionel refers tot he ZW's as having 4 THROTTLES, they have 2 Throttles, with full Whistle and bell controls, and 2 variable voltage outputs, that could be used as throttles, but their smaller control levers would make them inconvenient to be used that way. Also the 2 variable voltage outputs do not have whistle/bell controls. It would depend on many things whther you need more than the 2 power bricks that come with the ZW or not. How many/what kind of accessories do you have? How much power do they draw? What kind of locomotives are going to run? How many at the same time? Any Lighted cars? How Many? The stock, out of the box ZW (New) will put out up to 360 watts total regardless of how you divy them up, be it locomotives, illuminated passenger cars, or accessories. The New ZW, does give you the option though to add more power bricks to get up to a total of 720 watts, without having to buy more complete controllers/transformers, if the ZW can control things the way that you would like to, but just need more available wattage.
Just because the ZW has 4 throttle handles does not mean you can only control 4 engines/trains. I have the new WM Challenger, C&O 10-Wheeler, and 2 Chessie GP-30s ALL running on the same track, there are also 2 cabeese on this track as well. So be VERY careful how you phrase this.
challenger3980 Johnny B, Please don't confuse Railsounds with Command Control (TMCC/Legacy, in Lionel's case). There are several different versions of Railsounds, and to the best of my knowledge, they are all usable in conventional control, but TMCC/Legacy may give you more that you can control with Railsounds. RailSounds equipped, and TMCC/Legacy equipped are NOT the same thing, there are many, many Railsounds locomotives available, that are not TMCC/Legacy equipped. Doug
Thanks Doug, I admit I was a little confused. In fact I was going to ask, but it slipped by. I just remember going to the local Lionel dealer in Pittsburgh with my brother-in-law and his new loco last February. We did not know how old the loco was. The guy there said it was a TMCC train and gave us a little demonstration of what it could do. I asked him what we needed to get ours to work and a $100 later we were in business. It was so cool to see and hear the train slowly moving into the station with the squeals and clanking of braking. I had to catch a flight back home as he was trying to get the sound of the passengers and conductor working. And that is all that I know about it, in its entirety.
And Brent, I’m confused. You must have be a pretty long track and broken up into blocks to have so many trains on one track. There is no way I can run more than one train per track, not only because they don’t run at the same speed, but I don’t have that long of track.
I hope to squeeze in enough track on my patio to have a 6x20 layout. I could get more if I could get rid of my wife’s air hockey table, but that’s another story. Anyway, I’m shooting for two mains with a crossover and some sidings for now. I thought about a helix which would add to the power consumption, but I just don’t have the room. I’m undecided on whether I’m going to break it up into blocks.
As far as accessories go, I will have at least one, probably two Operating Crossing Gate Signals, because my grandson gets a big kick out of flashing lights. I’m only interested in passenger trains at least for now so I will have a couple of stations, but that is it. Any other scenery I might do in the future will be stand alone without power.
I do want railsounds someday and the wife wants me to go slow because I already have N-scale and because I’ve started so many other hobbies in the past that I’m not doing anything with. My grandson is my biggest drive right now and if his mother ever moves on, I might not be so motivated without another train enthusiast around.
I'm not entirely certain how long my upper level is, but it is a folded dog bone that twists and turns over the entire layout (8'10" x 13'2"). I run strictly Lionel Legacy control and the trains vary in length. I will try to post a picture tonight. I have to pay attention when doing this because with 3 trains it gets tight and you have to watch to make sure there isn't a collision. I did find that I have a dead spot about 6 feet long on the track... hence the reason I have to figure out and correct the power distribution problem!No I do not have blocks on the layout.
Check out Craig's List. I have bought 3 CW's, 2 of them new in the box for less then 50 bucks each. When buying a CW you want one with a G in front of the number. The number is located on the bottom of the transformer, lower right. The G represents the new model CW.
I’m a little confused about the “G” location. Do you mean in front of the CW such as Model:GCW-80 or someplace else like as in P/N:G6-14198?
I don't see any other place it could be.
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