Are toy train companies reaching out to youth... or are they...

[daan]

Liking trains is something in your blood. It's like a bit of DNA. A lot of people in my family are technicians, just like I am,and a lot of them "play the trains" too. We simply have a DNA-thing in our blood to tell us that. My dad and mom were not interested in trains, but my whole childhood I've build layouts on my own in my bedroom (which was quite big). Eventually other members of the family got interested and started too.
In another way, some guys are completely into football (which doesn't interest me at all).
The whole thing/issue about this thread is that the step to take when starting this hobby is too big for pocketmoney and "presents". I love to see that Lionel makes huge expensive special collectables, but also would like to see that the other end of the market would be served, and specially that my side of the market would have any trains of this brand for sale. One week, then we have a huge trainshow/ trainmarket in Utrecht, where I'll try to find a bit more Lionel-stuff.

[Anonymous]

Toy companies like Lionel are just interested in the "big buck". They come up with all of this "collector" hype so the middle aged train enthusiast will reach deep into his pockets. IMO, stuff of new manufacture is not usually a collectible, perhaps a future collectible but to sell something as "collectible in an instant" certainly raises some questions. The only way that youth will be interested in model trains is if WE give train sets as gifts to them now. Perhaps as they grow up, they will remember the fun operating them and keep the hobby going.

[Anonymous]

Upon reading my post above it could be construed that I don't like kids. What I am trying to express is that too many people hide their interest in trains behind a curtain of saying, " Oh, these trains aren't for mee-ee, Oh no no nono no, they're for the (ahem) kids, heh,heh, heh," when the kids are not in the least interested. I guess the kindly father figure gently introducing the child into the wondrous world of railroading has been done to death with me. If my grandkids are interested in my trains I'll be happy to show them, but I will not chase them down the hall to try to make them evince an interest in them. Most people who buy the starter sets just hand them to the kid and then go off to watch the news and sleep in front of the tube. That's pretty much what my dad did. Many people assume that if a kid is young he will automatically know all about trains without any effort on their part. For most people the ideal toy is something that will keep the kid occupied and out of their hair. Our tax guy once brought his son over to our house to show him my trains. The father asked me to show my trains to the kid, and the kid just rolled his eyes up at the ceiling and said,"Aw-ww, dad, I don't wanna look at this ***!" So I shrugged my shoulders and turned off the transformer. The father asked me again and I declined unless the kid himself asked me. The father looked at the kid who sighed and asked me in avery unenthusiastic manner so I complied and a strained time was had by all. Odd-d

[Anonymous]

PLAY VALUE??? Bah!! I am an adult, my kids are grown....play value??? To me play value just means that it runs well. I'm sorry but the maudlin treacly image of the wise smiling (condescending) adult teaching wide eyed kids how to operate his train makes me want to gag. There! I said it! That's just how I feel....so sue me. And the thought of those greedy rapacious capitalists actually making a PROFIT off my purchase of their merchandise doesn't bother me a bit. The manufacturers are no more likely to make trains at a loss just so you can have cheap trains than you are likely to work for no wages just to make THEM more profits. I read this thread until I just had to blow off steam. THAT'S MY TWO CENTS WORTH too. Odd-d

[daan]

Which model-railway doesn't attract children????
It attracts children, but parents rather buy a playstation because it's cheaper. And it's rediculous to compare any train with a playstation. Most of the children have both, or at least want both.
No, I guess the whole problem is the fact that money is the main issue about toytrains these days and not the toytrains themselves. Money is nice to have, if possible more than you need to survive, but if it's going to overrule the major issue, something is wrong. The major issue in this case is building model trains.
Of course the investors need to see results, but it need not be that way that people don't buy your stuff because it's too expensive. If you, as a factory with a name everybody knows, accept that people buy other brands than yours because of the price, you are making a HUGE MISTAKE. People are prepared to pay a bit more for good quality (name!!) and if you make it well and sell it for a nice price with the good name on it, you can make a good profit.
Lionel will never have a good profit this way, they moved their factory, not to lower the prices, but because everybody else does. Probably their margin is bigger, but they sell less, so it equals out..
I'm not the expert,but if it would be my factory... Those chairmen lack the sence of pride for their product. If you're proud about your product, the last thing you do is move it to a low-cost country, where building procedures are less precize, where plastic recepies are not well tested and where employees stay away when they got their paycheck.
I can't emagine you can guarantee a good productquality at a good price that way. Really good operators, who know about things do cost about the same in china as in the western world, they are not stupid. Only the assembly would be a low cost job, because you need nothing else than a sort of hands to move with and some sight to see what you're doing, but such laybour is also cheap in the western world.
It's not about toytrains anymore, it's marketing and management, making money, pleasing investors.. Someday they have to realize that they actually do that by making a product which aquires knowledge, workmanship and pride to capture a certain "spirit" which they miss when chopped together by uninterested and low educated people.
Children will see the difference, and parents don't spend 100 dollar on a plastic toy.

[Anonymous]

I know this is heresy, but is attracting kids really the key to survival of Model railroading, toy trains, whatever you want to call it?
In the early days, model trains were toys, expensive toys, but toys. Like Lionel and American Flyer. Not anymore. It's a great activity to share with kids, but except for some starter sets, most model trains are bought and used by adults.

And the real growth in model trains was in HO, and, I think, mostly by adults. And aren't the majority of N scalers and Garden railroaders adults? The same with RC planes and cars, boats, and wargamers? I read that the video game industry has flattened out because they can't attract more adult gamers.

Model railroading is a specialty hobby, like those I listed above. It's main appeal is to adults who like collecting, operating trains, modeling and scenery, or those that are nostalgic for what they had, or wanted, as kids. Kids like toys they can handle, like Thomas, Brio, and Lego. Most modern trains won't stand up to that kind of handling, because that's not what they are made for.

[Anonymous]

Hi guys,

Here's some fuel for the fire.

1) Why is the consensus always that we are failing to attract children to toy trains? We collectively may be doing just fine, although we won't know the results for another 20 to 30 years.

If you think about it, between Thomas, Brio, train shows, mall displays, store displays, and marketing efforts like the World's Greatest Hobby program, what Lionel did with Wendy's last year and will do with the Polar Express movie this year, and what MTH did with Macy's in New York last Christmas, toy trains are far more a part of popular culture today than they were 20 years ago.

If you go back 50 years, trains were a much bigger part of everyday life, but today all of the marketing efforts in the world aren't going to bring that back.

2) If you're expecting to toy trains to be as popular with kids as PlayStation, Nintendo, or Gameboy, your expectations are unrealistic. I've got 5 boys at home ages 11-17 and I was a Cub Scout den leader for 6 years, so trust me on this one.

3) Lionel is owned by Wellspring, which is an investment company. Wellspring is looking for a return on its investment now, not years into the future. MTH and the other companies also need to be profitable in the present, and must balance that need with the need for new customers in the future.

4) Either Lionel or MTH did indeed advertise in Boy's Life. I saw the ads. MTH advertised in National Geographic, too. If the ads had worked, they'd still be there. Remember, while Lionel and MTH are big companies to us, in the real world they are small potatoes, and can't possible pay for all of the advertising we'd all like to see.

5) As for Toys R Us and Wal-Mart, those companies are in it to make money, not promote hobbies. If another toy sells more units at a better profit than a train set at Toys R Us, then the Toys R Us people are going to pull train sets off the shelf and replace them with the more profitable or higher volume toy.

Anyway, like I said, more fuel for the fire.

Neil Besougloff
editor, Classic Toy Trains

[Big_Boy_4005]

The Aurora and the Tyco roadway systems both had HO grade crossings available. Tyco even had huge combo sets including both trains and cars up into the 80's.

I think eventually, it was determined that too many kids were learning bad habits about racing trains at grade crossings, and that track section was discontinued.

Then the whole slotcar market collapsed, when RC took over. Now kids were no longer tied to a track, they could make their own dirt track or race course.

Play value strikes again!!! [swg]

[Anonymous]

Tony,

This is off topic but my Aurora HO slot cars went in the same garage sales. There appears to be a little interest on ebay for Motorific but much more interest in Aurora HO Tunderjet cars and track. There apear to be small independent companies resin casting new bodies to supply an apparent increasing demand for Thunderjet bodies. Ok back to trains. I've noticed a few comments in HO slot car forums about intergrating train sets inn their racing layouts.

Good day to all,
Steve

[Anonymous]

Steve:

I remember Motorific! I had a set when I was a kid. That then lead to Aurora HO slot cars. That Motorific set is long gone, though, along with the slot cars. Think they ended up in the trash.

Tony

[Anonymous]

I love this topic. Elliot's comment on wooden trains and playability was spot on and forces me to make the following TRUE confession of how I got started in toy trains....

Nine years ago I was 38 years old and my wife of 13 years and I decided to have a child. So my wife's preger's and we are hitting the baby stores looking for just the perfect crib, rocker and such. Noticed Brio for the first time. Started playing with Brio in the store, after all cribs start to look alike after 50 or 60 of them. Bought a Brio set ... for the future child of course. Played with Brio at home ... bought more Brio, really cool stuff for the child ... wife is still preggers... played with Brio... Santa brought me, I mean my future son another Brio set ... Son's born ... we play Brio... we buy Brio .... detour through HO as mentioned earlier ... now happily PLAYING with Lionel and going to shows.

So there you have the true confession of a grown man that Brio brought back to the fold. One other confession, I did have a small oval Lionel layout when I in the 5th grade but it was given to me the same year I found out what a garage sale was and that people would pay me money, late 60's dollars, for stuff.... Wish I still had my old Lionel, my Ideal Motorific set, my old Hotwheels, comic books, etc. ...Can't blame my mom or my dad, emptied my room of my own free will ... pure greed.

Still need to play with the CPI calculators.

Steve

[Anonymous]

This is an excellent thread. Cheapclassics and daan's messages are right on target!
Bill
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[daan]

If compared to normal German / Austrian brand model railways, even Lionel trains are comparable, and have much more to offer. If I see the prices in CTT or on the internetshops, I've a hard time not to get a credit-card. Compared to what we are used to here, they are not expensive. A normal Roco Br01 sets you back for almost 300 euro's, that's a normal price. For that money you can also have genuine Lionel!
And, even if Lionel seems to be expensive in the USA, a Roco engine is not in a good shape after 50 years, and certanly won't run, but my F3's are 50+ years old, and worked as soon as there was any voltage on the tracks. May be not the cheapest, but quality it is!
The whole problem seems to me that the directors of the big toytrainfactory's don't actually enjoy playing trains, but are there because they know things about earning money. One of the most important things is:
Keep production there where people buy the stuff. You can abort things to china, but no-one in china wants those trains and with their wage they wouldn't even be able to buy them. BUT in the mean time, you take away the money to a different country, where different people get paid where they don't buy your products with.
The people who do want your products must first find a job somewhere else, and because every investor runs away to China, there are not that much jobs left. With that you don't get much of your product sold. Yes, IF you sell something, you earn a bit more, because the margin on your product is higher, but it's the wrong way. If you sell one locomotive and have 25 dollars profit, you did a good job. But if you sell 1000 engines with only one dollar profit each, you did much better!
Investors need to focus on something FORD invented, he simplified the production of cars, and paid his workers that much that they could buy one of these cars themselves. That is marketing and that is profitable, it works much better than running away to china to save money on personell and then getting back to amerika with your trains and expecting people to spend their elsewhere earned money on your, still expensive trains..
If you emagine what an impact a factory has, and how many people earn their money that way. Take my factory. It employs 750 men and women directly, there needs to be at least 40 tons of potatoes each hour, so each hour one truckload. Those trucks are driven by contractors. Also these potatoes need to be grown and harvested, need to be saved for the rest of the year, etc. So at least 100 big farmers, with each 10 men personell. The fries need to be transported too, also by trucks, also to warehouses across europe. let's say 100 different places, each with 10 men personell. Also all the contractors building new things, making new machines taking care of the waste, factory's which make the cardboard boxes, the foil for the bags etc.
Emagine all those things around that factory and then remove the place...
It is not only those 750 people (750 families!) that lost their job.. Eventually the number of persons loosing their jobs as a result of closing that factory is about 5 times bigger, so almost 4500 families.
Emagine Lionel had a factory which had 50 employees, moving that one factory to china means that 250 families can't buy their trains anymore. Every factory has such an impact on it's surroundings.
Therefore it is important to keep production near the buyers.
But that's only to the subject of how much there is to spend on trains..

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smcrawford

I'm not so sure tomorrow's O gager's are modeling HO today. The first reason I got into HO first was I bought into the myth that HO could be done on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and O couldn't. The second was I thought that HO still had playability. This was based on a book that showed quite a few TYCO opperating accessories. Sometimes I'm slow took me awhile to figure out that the reason I could not find any was that TYCO had gotten out of the market. I couldn't find anything like a culvert loader . Thor's site proved to me O could be done in a 4 x 8 space.

From what I have observed non-train parents and train interested children are drawn to the busy playability of O at shows as contrasted to the modeling skill exhibited by HO and N displays where the only action is on the tracks. I still believe afordable, <$100, quality , expandable Lionel style O is what is required to save the hobby.

I believe there is one part to the equation Elliot left out. He is right that if you place 1950 prices in terms of 2004 dollars. The prices do track fairly well. Where the difference comes in is income. I am convinced that if you are not making 10 times what you or your father was earning in the mid 60's you do not have the buying power he did. So while a 20 - 50 dollar starter set in the 50's may well convert to $150 to $200 2004 dollars the percentage of income used to buy the set is greater today than in the 50's.

Some of the Fed Reserve web sites have CPI calculators that do the conversions and I want to play with them some more.

This is just my [2c]. Take care guys

Steve

Good points Steve!! So basicly your [2c] adjusted for inflation looks like this:

[2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c]

Wasn't a gallon of gas under a quarter? 10 X is about the correct factor. When it comes to gasoline I think our government has been covering for us, keeping prices unrealisticly low for too long. This helps the people in office look good with the voters, but now we get sticker shock, and here comes inflation.

The other great point here is, because of the size of our trains, we do get much better PLAY value. This size allows to have the action accessories, and the electro couplers, and all the sound!!! I know some of the HO and N guys are envious, and with good cause!!! [swg]

Maybe this is why wooden trains are so popular, play value combined with lower cost.

[cheapclassics]

I am not sure if the following comment is germane to the conversation, but perhaps it may shed some light on the situation. One of the reasons post war costs were so low was the lack of product variety. Take the 6462 long gondola. For most of the time it was made, it had one number and one road name (NYC). The body color may have changed over the years, and the amount of detail decreased, but it was the same car. Lionel could make huge runs to reduce cost further because they were under no pressure from collectors to make it in another road name. When you look at the number of "new" products each year, it is surprising to see how few original items were offered each year. Nowadays, even the $25 starter set cars are revamped each year with little carryover.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[lander31]

This has been a good topic to follow.
As a new member to the form and O gauge railroading, I would like to add some of my views.
I got started with O gauge when my son was given a lionel engine and tender this past year. I then went to the local hobby shop to get some track and acc. for him. I was shocked at the prices of the starter sets and of the engines.
Since then I have attend train shows and picked up some postwar lionel trains and acc. and restoring them. The engines and other postwar acc. have been great for us to get started and have not been a big bite on the family budget. We do not need all of the new bell and whistles that are on new engines. I have watched people at the hobby shop pick up starter sets and then put them down when they see the prices and move on to a HO or N gauge.
We have a blast just watching the trains on semi fasten down layout some of teh used acc we picked up at train shows.
The main thing for me is how long will my son play with it and is it easy for me and him to maintain it and not cost a lot. I know one thing since we got the trains he has leaned how to wire them up and the switches, it has open up new doors of learning for him. This is very important to me I want him to have fun play with the trains but also learn on how they work and the care of them.

Terry

[Anonymous]

I'm not so sure tomorrow's O gager's are modeling HO today. The first reason I got into HO first was I bought into the myth that HO could be done on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and O couldn't. The second was I thought that HO still had playability. This was based on a book that showed quite a few TYCO opperating accessories. Sometimes I'm slow took me awhile to figure out that the reason I could not find any was that TYCO had gotten out of the market. I couldn't find anything like a culvert loader . Thor's site proved to me O could be done in a 4 x 8 space.

From what I have observed non-train parents and train interested children are drawn to the busy playability of O at shows as contrasted to the modeling skill exhibited by HO and N displays where the only action is on the tracks. I still believe afordable, <$100, quality , expandable Lionel style O is what is required to save the hobby.

I believe there is one part to the equation Elliot left out. He is right that if you place 1950 prices in terms of 2004 dollars. The prices do track fairly well. Where the difference comes in is income. I am convinced that if you are not making 10 times what you or your father was earning in the mid 60's you do not have the buying power he did. So while a 20 - 50 dollar starter set in the 50's may well convert to $150 to $200 2004 dollars the percentage of income used to buy the set is greater today than in the 50's.

Some of the Fed Reserve web sites have CPI calculators that do the conversions and I want to play with them some more.

This is just my [2c]. Take care guys

Steve

[FJ and G]

Brian,

It is a sad state of affairs, when you don't enjoy your work. I skimmed over those interviews in OGR mag because most of them looked like infomercials instead of serious discussions about the future. I'll go back and read the Lionel one.

If I had to choose a toy train company to work for, I think I would pick Atlas. They are pricey but they always seem to have great quality stuff, whether 21st century signal system, track, attention to detailing; they always seem to be at the top of their game.
dav

[brianel027]

Thanks David for the reference and the starting of this post. Yep, this is a topic that can bring me out of the woods for a moment...

There are many good observations here made by you folks. I like the quote "out of sight, out of mind" in reference to advertising. It's the truth. I've been saying it for years. I'm astounded with how many folks STILL believe Lionel isn't even in business any more. The wonderful and innovative idea for their logo marketing campaign - where the Lionel name was on every kind of item - had no reference to the Lionel company itself, how to contact the company, where to find Lionel trains or even that the trains are being made.

A wonderful advertising idea that was only half baked. Advertising needs to lead the customer to the company and the product. I'm sure for many who bought those keychains, clocks and tins that had the Lionel name on it still have no idea the trains are still being made. The licensing program should have had a stipulation that there be some kind of reference or mandated line on how to contact Lionel or how to find their website.

One more thing that hasn't been mentioned directly here that I've said before, and will say again. It is the quest to please the adult market that has also helped place the beginner market in the back seat. The precious dollars are being placed into product development and tooling for scale-sized adult products. The move of production from Michigan to China hasn't saved any money for the customer buying Lionel product. Prices on Lionel product haven't fallen much at all save for a few select items. The move did enable Lionel to divert more money though into product development of the new scale-sized, scale detailed product we have seen since the move was made. There has been hardly any new tooling or product development for beginners and non-scale traditional product. The last thing in this area from Lionel was the Waffle Box Car from 1995 - and I'm glad they've put this in their tradtional starter car line up.

Lionel has name recognition the others could only dream of having. This is an asset they have not fully taken advantage of. And Lionel currently does have the best selection of starter sets and separate sale cars in the most varied price ranges. Even though others may actually have better product.

K-Line doesn't have the name recognition. And even though their sets may be a better quality value, they are more expensive currently than some Lionel sets. The new high powered transformer they include in their sets may account for some of the higher price - but most folks when shopping for their first set do not appreciate the value in this. K-Line I believe made a mistake by not coming out with an intermediate transformer... they went from the bare-bones cheapo one they used for years to a cadillac version overnight. And I think the "Kid's 0" line up is a gimmick. More reults could be obtained by using existing tooling and product with an emphasis on making these items more attractive to newcomers. The battery powered sets are a waste of time. If K-Line could get them into a mass retailer, they might have some effect. But they won't with their current train shop availability only status.

MTH has come out with some real top quality train sets. But again, they do not have the name recognition and they are too pricey for many beginners - even though they may ultimately be worth the extra money... beginners do not understand this.

Nor do beginners see the advantages of all the added electronics, unless they know someone already who is in the hobby and helping them to select a set. What they do see from the added electronics is the added expense. Time and time and time again I have heard from parents that the electronics and control systems are NOT important. What is important is PRICE, QUALITY and PLAY VALUE. An 99.5% all plastic RS-3 engine is NOT quality. A starter set with no operating car is NOT play value. And $25 for a starter set train car is NOT the price many parents will be enticed by. This isn't hard to figure out! God, I'm out of work and yet I can figure this stuff out. I didn't need to hear it from hundreds upon hundreds of parents. Not one parent I have ever talked to has expressed interest in command control! I let them know about it too. It's an added expense that many cannot afford.

The other thing I heard at train shows (aside from the comments on why aren't I married) was why wasn't I running Lionel? Women would comment on my marital status after watching me take the time to demonstrate the trains to the kids. But the men would comment that Lionel needed some out-of-the-box innovative, creative thinking like mine. I don't know how many times I heard comments like "that's a real good idea... Lionel should be doing that."

It is as others have said here, it is the bottom line that is controlling the show. More than the other companies, Lionel is a corporate environment... there are investors to be pleased first, before kids and beginners. It was more than obvious to me that John Brady is very unhappy at Lionel from his piece in OGRR. I read it and thought here's a guy who hates his job and wants to be let go. I had others say the same exact thing upon reading that piece. One said "there's a guy who really wants to be fired."

I've have made the statement in the past that I could run Lionel better than others have. I once was invited to speak on the topic of trains and kids. After my talk, one guy came up, shook my hand and told me MK should step down as President of K-Line and put me in charge of the company as he had never heard anyone before from K-Line speak with so much conviction and passion on seeing trains get back into the hands of kids. But passion and conviction amount to very little in today's business environment.

But truth be told, I know there is a lot more going on a Lionel than meets the eye. I'm sure that one man's decision doesn't carry much weight at Lionel these days. As I'm certain there is tremendous pressure for the company to show a profitable performance to Wellspring.

And of course, none of these stupid lawsuits and legal actions help the hobby or the companies involved in the suits. It wastes time and diverts money. It might up end being written with no small irony that the company (MTH) that did so very much to pu***he hobby forward, may also be the very same company that helps to destroy the hobby... not by free market or competition, but in the courtroom instead.

[FJ and G]

Daan,

Yes, I think there are markets in Europe for 3-rail trains; good-quality starter sets with cool operating accessories. Hey, they've got McDonalds KFC, and even DisneyWorld in Europe, why not Lionel trains?

My daughter is 17 and was never much interested in trains. If I ever get another kid (I'm 47 so I guess that's a possibility if I ever find someone), then definitely 3-rail trains, as I'm an advocate of bigger is better, but to be perfectly honest, I really think that a kid would enjoy G scale as well; esp. outdoors in the backyard. The prices are lower in some cases than 3rail as well. I've got my sights set on G for the future.

dav

[daan]

Pfui, that was a lot of posting to read (specially in English,it has a bit more effort then dutch). When children come over to watch my layout they are ENOURMOUS ENTHOUSIASTIC about the size and impressiveness of the trains in gauge 0. If you have h0, it is small compared to these machines. They would love to have one, BUT THEY CAN'T BUY IT HERE!! Seen the prices in the comments I think if Lionel would use the same pricing in Europe, marklin and fleischmann would have tough competition. Starter sets in europe (very tiny, beep like engine, 2 gondola's and a circle of track with simple transformer) will set you back around 100 euro's (125 dollars)
A lionel set as mentioned before would cost 120 dollars. Guess which one will attract more children? The big one of course!
The whole problem on this side of the atlantic is excactly as on your side; trainbuilders forget to make small affordable sets for children. ONLY marklin makes a special,less detailed and stronger build line (hobby-line) specially for kids, based on trains from the 70's. They are good quality and a steam engine with tender costs about 100 euro's.
A stsrter set will still have a 100 euro sign on it, but is with DELTA-control (4 trains at once) and has 3 wagons and a more attractive engine. ROCO, an austrian factory also starts to get the point and has begun to make a product-line which is less detailed and simpler painted, but with the same strong ROCO technoligy inside as the expensive ones. A 4 axle diesel sets you back about 60 euro's.
Still it's a bit on the hefty side for pocketmoney, but teenagers who work a bit besides school can buy those, and parents are more interested to buy those things for their kids. For a comparison, a playstation 2 costs about 250 euro's (300 dollars) in Europe.
Here they starting to learn, now only start to use the right scale, then I'll be satisfied too.

[3railguy]

These are my opinions:

Today's kids are into HO because it is more affordable than O gauge. This is OK because while they model in HO, they are exposed to big O gauge with TMCC, sounds, and all. Even though they can't afford O gauge, they yearn for it. This yearning will stay with them into their adulthood when they will be able to afford O gauge. How many of us had inexpensive trains as kids but yearned for big Lionel F-3's and grew up to collect them as adults? Quite a few from what I've seen. Lionel is doing everything they can to generate a kid's market but there is too much competition with HO. They (Lionel or MTH) have to generate the demand before they can afford big buck advertising. They are in sort of a grid lock. Their only real source of income is adults. It's hard for us to subsidize because we complain too much about the prices. I see nothing wrong with Lionel catering mainly to adults if that's where the demand is. If this is an adult hobby, then so be it. Why is that so bad?

The TCA membership decline isn't a good indicator that the market is declining. The TCA is a collector based organization and many of today's O gaugers are more model railroaders (hi railers) than collectors. Plus we have more train organizations now such the LCCA and LOTS. The TCA is based on the east coast which makes it inconvenient for mid west and west coast people. We have eBay too that has taken a huge share of the market.

So, tomorrow's O gaugers are here today. They are just modeling in HO right now.

[Anonymous]

Elliot;

I think that we are all just wondering why, if a couple of train manufacturers
can offer reasonably priced locos, cars and accessories for the "average
bear", then why can't the others? You have to admit that Mr. Klein isn't won-
dering where his next meal is coming from...he's doing all right. The guys
at RMT are doing well as a business. Mike wolf is offering SOME stuff for the
lower price market and he's not starving or laying off anyone. If they can do
it, then so can the bigger companies like Lionel, Atlas, et al. Even when ad-
justed for "inflation" and such, today's trains are more expensive than their
predecessors. When we were young we as children could actually save our
allowances, grass cutting/snow shovelling, and other small cash and buy
at least SOME things ourselves. That is no longer possible for today's child-
ren, even though they have more money that we had back then. The gripe
today is that even ADULTS who are making UPPER MIDDLE CLASS salaries
cannot comfortably afford to indulge in this hobby, let alone introduce a child
to it. The other gripe is that the manufacturers would rather produce a badly-
working museum-detailed "shelf model" for the "discerning collector and in-
vestor" than a good quality, sturdy, decently detailed, reliable train set that can
be affordable by someone other than a member of the Fortune 500 and operated
by someone who does not possess and engineering degree from MIT.

The museum-detailed models are wonderful and have their rightful place in the
hobby by the people who can afford such, but there is so much wasted potential
by not also offering a nice, well proportioned, cast-in-detailed loco and train set
using proven simple technology to ordinary people looking for a hobby that can
involve everyone in the family. Williams is a good example of this. He can make
a very nice loco that is reasonably priced, that is very nicely detailed and is very
reliable right out of the box, and doesn't NEED all of the whiz-bang techno-gadgets.

We will never see 1950s pricing again. We will never see the 1950s again.
(Except at my house [:)] ) But it is not asking too much to see affordability and
quality again! As for the companies reaching out to youth...No, I DON'T see that
they are doing that. Other products place advertising in front of their target mar-
kets. The train companies don't and then they wonder why only older people
buy. It's like that movie ... "Build it and they will come." Lotta logic to that.

As others here have said, the train companies need to go back to posting ads
in periodicals and media viewed by children. That is not being done now. The
odd thing is that not only would this result in more exposure, but I'm almost sure
that an ad in a periodical such as Boys' Life, a regional news paper comic section,
or even a home-improvement or parents magazine (broader exposure) would
cost a lot less per inch than a similar ad in a 'specialty' publication that is only
read by people already in the hobby.

Your train layout that you displayed was a form of advertising and it reached MANY
more people than an ad in one of the hobby magazines. As you said yourself,
parents stopped by with their children and grandchildren and long-dormant in-
terest was renewed. Lionel and Marx used to have similar display layouts in
stores seasonally and it, too, boosted revenues for a relatively small outlay in
funds. This is not complicated here, just plain common sense. I really think we
are on to something here and this would be a great place for some of the 'big
wigs' to come and get some free 'focus group' information at NO COST!

Watcha think?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm not sure why everyone is wishing for prices to come down here. It ain't gonna happen. If you really believe that it could, you're kidding yourself. Beside, I think if you adjust for inflation, you won't find prices today much different those 50, 75, or even 100 years ago. The numbers seem large, but they seemed large back then too. People's priorities were different then. Maybe the trains haven't changed, we have. Did we hear out parents complain about the prices? Maybe this is the mentality of the manufacturers. Maybe this is why they needed to move production to China, to keep costs in line with those of the past.

Our government prides itself on it's ability to keep inflation low. But over time it adds up. Think about things cost back in the 50's, then compare.

[Anonymous]

ken (and others here)...

This is an interesting topic. As I said earlier, apparently many people are getting
the same idea all at once! Maybe the time for a turn-around is nearer than we
think! Other sites are showing the same emotions and comments. Even the big
"fraternity" site voices these same concerns. The train companies are not the
only ones propogating the "collector" and "investor" myth. I just received my TCA
Newsletter today and what do I see but a letter ba a member in the "Sound Off"
column regarding the unaffordable prices of TCA merchandise and the suggestion
that TCA offer more reasonably priced items to real working-stiff folk who want to
enjoy the hobby. On another page TCA shows a "membership thermometer" that
record a loss of almost 1000 members in the last 4 years alone. Also the pages
of the TCA publications are routinely acknowledging the passing of ever-growing
numbers of members. Granted TCA has begun trying to cultivate a "renewable
resource" by starting the TCA "Kids Club" (hate that word "kids"!). Now maybe the
organization will lobby on behalf of its members to the train companies about
offering a more affordable line of rolling stock. ( We can dream, can't we?) On
the other hand, I have noticed over the last 5-8 years of attending York (been going
for 20 years) that less people are actually buying and more are just looking. The
vendors are beginning to take notice as well. I noticed a definite attitude shift in a
lot of them. Yes, the big companies are still aloof and country-club like, but the
smaller cottage-industry guys are more open to suggestions. For all of Mike Wolf's
faults (real or perceived) he always is there and always tries to talk to ordinary
people who visit his booth. The folks at K-Line's display were very helpful and infor-
mative. One fellow I talked to gave me his personal business card and even took
written notes of our conversation! I was part of a small group who were all hitting
him with the comments we see here on this site and he took down all of our ideas,
comments, critiques and, yes, praise (where applicable) and assured us that it
would be forwarded to Mr. Klien. THAT is respect for the customer! This same
gentleman also took time out to talk personally to a small child who came by with
his dad and asked some pretty neat questions about some of the locos and rolling
stock. This was a 6 year old who obviously was not going to be spending wads of
cash, yet the K-Line employee still treated him like a paying customer! GOOD! I
saw Mr. Wolf personally GIVE some hard-to-find prewar (duplicate) parts to an older
fellow who was shopping at his booth. Told him "no charge" and glad he could help.
I visited the RMT booth and talked at length with them and they recognize the pot-
ential for the youth/starter market as is evidenced by the "BEEP"s. I was told that
there may be some other things to come in the future! They also sold everything
that they had on hand there! GOOD again! If these people can do it, why can't the
bigger guys like Lionel, Atlas, etc. do the same?

As for "old train" prices begining to fall...well 'ken' got the right idea. Between less
"disposable" income and more "collections" being liquidated at estate sales, the
"street prices" of "collectibles" are dropping. This, alone, should alert the train
manufacturers to a change in the "market". Will they react favorably? I doubt it.

The only alternative to getting affordable toy trains into the hands of a younger
generation is for those of us in the hobby to periodically procure some inexpensive
second-hand stuff, refurb it and give it to a deserving person. I have done this many
times in my life. As old Martha would say..."It's a good thing!" Besides...As I saw on
a bumper sticker at York this year..."He who dies with the most toys, still dies!"
(I like my sig line better, though [:)] ).

[Anonymous]

Hi
I normaly stay away from toy rains comment but this one caught my interest.
How do toy trains compete with the latest shot it up blow it up computor game.
When toy trains cost more than the games set up.
Have any of you taken a toy train to the local Model railway exhibition,
to show the public.
I might point out that that a model railway is only a toy train built too a set scale throughout and most railway modelers started with a toy trains.
Most of the toy trains I have seen lately are plastic made in china rubbish
so what chance have you got?
What is need is the reputable toy companies to bring their prices down
ADD PLAY VALUE, my fondest toy train memory is a Triang giraffe car that the giraffe pulled its head down on aproaching a tunnel.
far more important forget about the big kids and collectors and get back too
marketing too children at pocket money prices.
The big kids will still buy them regardless as that is their hobby and the collectors will still collect.
But if the manufacturers don't recapture the childrens maket then none of us
toy or model hobbiest will have anything to buy as the companies will have gone broke.
Well that must be at least fifty cents worth
appologies for shocking spelling.
regardsJohn

[Anonymous]

How many "kids" under the age of 20 carry $100 bils in thier wallets/purses??? Unless their dealin drugs, the answer is ZERO!!! How many train OEM's offer a complete train set with sound, lights, reverse, ect for $ 100...ZERO!

The OEM's are catering to the Collector NOT the train operator. Look at how many high end ($ 1K +) locomotives they offer verses "affordable" (under $ 200) engines. The math is easy. They (OEM's) know where the $$$ are at and they are targeting that market.

Anyone care to guess where thier market will be in 10 or 20 years when the "collector" of today is "takin the dirt nap"??? I see many CHEAP train auctions coming on the horizon if KIDS are not getting involved NOW!!

[Anonymous]

The comments about the prices of trains are, in my opnion, spot on. Prices are the problem. Yes, you CAN buy a radio controlled car, ready to run, for less than the price of a single scale Lionel engine withi TMCC & Railsounds. These toys are indeed the competition that Lionel & the others are up against for the family dollars. Just as slot cars were the competition in the 60s.

Last year, when I bought my son his Great Train Robbery set, I had only recently found out that Lionel was still in business, much as that father that smcrawford mentioned. I was taken aback at the cost of the Lionel starter sets in the hobby shop at the time. It was only after buying & having to return a Bachmann HO set that we went for the Lionel set.

Do I regret the decision? No. But let me tell you, I sure as shooting wouldn't complain if the volumes went up & the prices came down.

ChesBchRy:

Yep, I worked for Chase Manhattan for 4.5 years, starting in March, 1990. The problem, I believe, is that modern american business is too focused on the bottom line & looking for ways to "cut expenses" that involves making fewer workers do more work.

I'm not a big fan of american business practices.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

The idea of a loss leader is very interesting!!! Maybe the older crowd would be willing to pay something like $2 per $100 extra to support such a program. Of course I don't really see why we should have to do something like this, but making such an offer may be the only way to get Lionel's attention on this issue. There is a drawback though, baiting beginners with low prices may backfire by only delaying the sticker shock until the expansion phase.

As for GATS, I really don't know if they have been helpful or harmful to the hobby. On the one hand they may be the cause of some of the public mall shows drying up, by baiting away the groups that used to do those shows for free, and charging admission to see them then paying them for participating. On the other hand putting all the vendors together is like having a train superstore that travels.