Are toy train companies reaching out to youth... or are they...

[FJ and G]

Reaching out to balding overweight middle aged dudes (like me) who carry money clips with $100 bills (not like me)?

Actually, stole the topic from one of Brian's replies to my toy train collecting post . Brian's quote:
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"It's too bad that Lionel and the others don't put more value and sincere effort in reaching the youth market and in making quality, value priced affordable trains that are works of art instead of worrying about the collector market and hoping the insane pricing/buying frenzy of a decade ago will return again."

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Well, there are plenty of ways that they COULD reach out more. Lionel (& other trains) could be featured on Sesame Street and other kids' shows or sets could be donated by the toy train companies to retired people who could visit elementary schools and set up layouts for the kids and insert some math and science and history in with the display.

Yet, the sad truth is, the bottom line is the most important and the old guys with the money pay the bills. Still, better advertising of affordable starter sets could attract youth. And I firmly believe you need to hook them before age 8.

Dave Vergun

[Dave Farquhar]

They're reaching out to middle aged guys. They're not even reaching out to people like me (I'm 29, with a house payment and a car payment, upper middle class, and I buy trains with the money most people my age spend at the bar on weekends. That won't pay for a $1,000 loco...)

They've got some good starter sets. I posted this elsewhere, but in the hopes that someone with influence reads this... They need to advertise in magazines like Boy's Life. A bold, aggressive ad: You can afford a genuine Lionel! Then tout the many advantages of O27, like being able to take the layout back down quickly and easily, having a layout in 3x5, having a decent layout in 4x8, better reliability than HO or N priced comparably... And at the bottom of the ad, sign off as Lionel, the Standard of the World since 1900. (Which isn't true, but hey.)

Lionel is the only O gauge manufacturer with the name recognition to do this.

And then they need to get their starter sets into stores like Toys R Us and Target. They've got a good, inexpensive Thomas set and good starter sets with both diesel and steam engines, all retailing for under $200.

I also see K-Line has a couple battery-powered sets for $40 now. If they can get that into toy stores... Man. It could be huge. They promote the upgradability, which is good. I wi***hey'd plaster on the box, big enough to see, "Compatible with Lionel." Yes, it makes K-Line look like a wannabe, but it also gives Dad some ideas. Especially if they'd mention that the set would be great for outdoor use. (Anyone have Maury Klein's e-mail address? I wish someone would plant this outdoor idea for his $40 sets in his mind. If I could get more of his plastic track, I'd buy one for a no-hassle outdoor layout in a heartbeat. In fact I may do it anyway and just use rusted-beyond-other-use track outside.)

Product placement in movies helps, sure, but the main thing is reaching out to people who are already mildly interested, and make sure they know that it doesn't cost you thousands of dollars to get into a Lionel. That perception is there. Last Christmas a buddy of mine derailed my Lionel 1110 loco that was running around my Christmas tree while I was in the other room. He had a crowd there. He was kind of distressed about it and mentioned the train was worth hundreds of dollars. You and I know I can get all the 1110s I want for $39 apiece and they'd probably be in better shape. The only thing special about that 1110 is that it was my Dad's and as long as it runs I don't care what it looks like.

Lionel needs to get people to know that 1) they're still in business, and 2) while Lionel has lots of stuff for you if you've got $5,000 to spend, they also have something for you if you have $200.

Without people knowing that, product placement in movies and on TV doesn't help a lot.

[FJ and G]

Dave,

My first set was a 2000 Lionel Construction set bought at ToysRUs for $99. No reverse or neutral; only 1 truck of the RS-3 powered; couldn't pull 3 empty gondolas on flat track without wheel slippage; no smoke, no horn, no bell, DC power pak.

They need quality at affordable prices and better advertising. If you have quality and advertising and getting the msg to the right people, then you will be able to see in QUANTITY and price will come down.

Interestingly, that junky set got me hooked again after about 40 years of HO.

[Anonymous]

Dave F;

See my rant/editorial in the "investments" thread. We are on the same wavelength
here! Lionel and most (but not all) of the toy train companies are more interested
in catering to the "investors", "speculators", "collectors" and just the quick easy
"mark" to get a quick kill than trying to cultivate a longterm relationship between a
customer and business.

There are, however, a couple of train companies that actually are producing a few
items that children can actually buy with their OWN money that they have without a
request to the parents for a home-equity line of credit to finance their purchases!

K-Line has some really nice items starting at $10 and going up gradually. I saw
some of these things at York and could see the PLAY VALUE in them. Ready-
Made-Toys has come out with that small affordable loco that is easily handled
by small people and is well made. For the middle-class person who actually has
to spend money on frivolous things like FOOD, SHELTER, etc. Williams has a
good line of affordable, dependable, well-made locos and rolling stock that will
last for a long time with minimal maintenance. K-Line has taken PLAY VALUE
an extra step by including accessories and figures with their complete sets, and
at the same time they are under-pricing the competition.

In the end I think it will be the companies like Williams, K-Line and RMT that will
survive after all of us "investors" and "collectors" are gone.

You are correct about advertising. Children still read the funnies and watch TV
(maybe too much) and that's where the ads should be placed. The train comp-
anies of old advertised on TV, in childrens' magazines, in parents' magazines,
and had good displays in stores. THAT is what attracted the buyers! Instead,
today's train companies place a few over-priced ads in specialty publications
that are not normally seen by children en-masse. Instead, today's train comp-
anies are more interested in spending their dollars trying to litigate their com-
petitors into submission....not trying to reach out to new purchasers or to the
"youth market".

(edited for spelling)

[Big_Boy_4005]

I have always felt that the popularity of the real railroads have a large role to play in whether children like trains or not. The opportunities for exposure to real railroads is drying up. This whole situation reminds me of Silence Of The Lambs.

"How do we learn to covet?"
"We covet things we see everyday."

Without the real railroads models are meaningless. This is why foreign prototypes don't appeal to most Americans.

On the other hand, what would happen if we did expose kids to trains? Would they stop buying and playing video games?

Maybe the train manufacturers don't feel that they need to waste money advertising.

They have us!!!! WE are their advertising!!!!

[Anonymous]

Elliot;

Yes, you are right. We as "former children" (I will NEVER grow up, just grow old!)
have a certain duty to advertise our interests and hopefully, gain new members
to the hobby. I have seen your marvelous layout. It is a great communications tool!
However, if a company wants to sell a product on a continuing basis it, too, must
advertise, and advertise directly to the prospective customer base. ie...THE CHILD-
REN! We can preach all day long to our children about the wonderful Lionel this
and Marx that and Gilbert others that we played with when we were young, but un-
less the companies that ACTUALLY MAKE the products do some advertisement,
the it will be all for nought.

[Anonymous]

There's lots of evidence that kids still find trains fascinating. Look at the popularity of Thomas the Tank Engine. Using Thomas as a way to "hook" young children into the hobby is something that the toy makers should be doing, but aren't.

Plus kids may feel that trains are for little kids when they get older. After all, they were playing with Brio type Thomas trains when they were little 3 year olds.

I agree that the price of starter sets needs to come down, the quality needs to go up, and you need to be able to find these on the shelves in a Toys 'R Us or Kaybee Toys. And it would be nice if TMCC could be an option, or at least an easy add-on / upgrade.

I think the manufacturers saw the collectible craze & dollar signs went off in their eyes & they think they can make more by producing less. So long as fat, balding middle aged men like us (OK, I'm not balding, but I am fat & middle aged) are willing to spend the money, this change won't happen.

Tony

[Anonymous]

This is interesting! I belong to a couple of other train forums, and I "lurk"
at the "other" forum and what's strange is that there are a LOT of people
who feel just like us and are talking about the situation in the very same
tone! On one site there is a thread about things heard at the latest York
meet regarding rumors of sales of train companies. I posted something
I heard while standing at a dealer booth in the Orange Hall. Another per-
son posted that he actually ASKED Mr. Bracy (CEO Lionel) to his face re-
garding the rumor and got the reply that "...Lionel is ALWAYS for sale..."!

That right there tells VOLUMES about the attitude of the major train com-
panies today! It's all about PROFIT at the EXPENSE of the CUSTOMER!
A company that is truly interested in cultivating a customer base would
NOT have exhibited that kind of cavalier atitude towards a customer! A
REAL PROFIT comes from a REPEAT CUSTOMER who is treated with
RESPECT!

vitabile...

I thought I saw you post that you work(ed) for Chase Manhattan Bank.
Well, then you know what the terms "investment" and "outreach" mean.
The train companies (the majority) of today like ALL businesses today
are only interested in the quick profit. For all the high-priced CEO's and
"educated" business and financial gurus, how come no-one can figure
out that there is MORE PROFIT in making ONE GOOD PRODUCT than
making MANY LOUSY PRODUCTS? Money is LOST in re-orders, repairs,
re-shipping, etc. Money is also lost when customers move on to other
suppliers of the same product. (Witness the auto, motorcycle and electronics
industries late of this country.)

WHY won't the "smart guys" at these "companies" take notice?

Again, read my comments in the "toy trains as an investment" thread here.

[spankybird]

Hi All,
I guess we will pop in with our two cents [2c]. If we look at our history, and Big Boy pointed out, Lionel always had a down turn in business as the real railroad also had a down turn in business.

For those of us who are old enough, how many of our fathers or uncles work on the railroads (1920 thru 1950). Maybe part of the reason they bought us trains was because the worked on them. But then again, back then, the railroads was the number one employer in the US.

Here is something else to think of, TMCC and DCS may have been one persons thought to add the video game to the trains for the computer kids. Play station 2 most probably cost as much if not more than these system, and we let the kids play with them. Hand the DCS unit to the 8 to 10 year olds and let them have some fun.

This is just some things to think of.


tom

[FJ and G]

On a positive note; although toy train companies are not doing a really good job in reaching out, other companies are! Namely, Brio, Lego, and Thomas the Tank engine products as well as the TV series. How much these tiny tyke trains transfer to model and toy trains is anyone's guess.

As to seeing real trains, or riding them, light rail connecting city with suburbs is probably the extent to which kids are exposed to trains. Also, there are a bunch of good children's books on trains.

When I was growing up (actually it was made before my time), there was a cool Porky Pig cartoon, where he had a train race with another train. My colleague and I wwere just talking about that episode.

dav

[Dr. John]

It has been years since I've seen a TV commercial for Lionel, much less any advertising in magazines (besides train related mags). The local Toys R Us has not stocked Lionel in several years.

Out of sight, out of mind . . .

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well guys, if we really feel the need to get more kids involved, perhaps the answer is public train shows. We used to have a couple of local train shows at malls every year, but for whatever reason they just faded away. Like Brian said, and I have always known, a good interesting display will leave a lasting impression on the general public, regardless of age. There are a lot of groups who have built modular layouts over the years, who have no shows to do.

Are things like GATS the problem? The old mall shows were FREE to the public, and NO SELLING ALLOWED!!! The malls welcomed the shows, as a draw to their businesses, and seemed happy to host. Along comes GATS and changes the whole concept, renting a huge venue, and charging admission. I don't want to sound like a hipocrite here, but doesn't charging admision only to access a few displays and a ton of vendors seem like a problem.

At enterTRAINment the business started off selling NOTHING! The $2 admission was only to pay the rent and other expenses. Of course the idea was to make money, but because I made a bad choice of locations within the mall, that became an impossible struggle.

The mall management people thought my failure was the fault of my business plan, but to my dying day I will disagree. I expected 1% of the total mall traffic to pay the $2. The problem was that I only saw 10% of the total mall traffic in my location. My actual numbers were between 2% and 4% of people walking past, stopped and paid, depending on the day of the week. A better location within the mall, where perhaps 30% of total traffic passed, and I might still be there today, long after the failure of the Great Train Store.

The Lionel big wigs of the day visited enterTRAINment, and seemed impressed, but chose to do nothing to help or support the effort. It was a business decision. As for Lionel "always being for sale", I think that is a very sad comment on business values today. I'll bet Joshua Cowen is rolling in his grave!!!

[Anonymous]

I don't believe GATS, or other pay to enter venues, are the problem. This past weekend my town had its first ever train show. It was produced by GATS. I suppect it will be the last as attendance was poor, as I expected. This area is not a big hobby area. However, I attended both days and I believe their were more parents and kids poping in for a look than people like me that were combing through the displays looking for that special something. The kids were drawn to two things. The first were the dealers that had Brio and Thomas items. The second were the four or five display layouts. The kids were specifically drawn to the simple Lionel layout. N held little facination. HO a bit more but much less than the O. After watching the layouts the families would drift around looking for stater sets and engines. Some left as soon as they noticed the a single O scale engine was $250 - $1000+. The ones that got past the engine sticker shock checked on O gage starter sets. The absolute cheapest I found was $120 for the most basic Lionel. Not bad but factor in an operating accessory and a remote control track and you have busted the $200 barrier. A parent can buy a Game Cube, PS2 or X-Box for less than that and know their child will enjoy it.

Heck my 9 year old son and his best friend would love to play with one of Lionel's miltary train sets, heck I'd like to have one to play with, but $400 +- , GEEZ!

Overheard one dad with a daughter that was extremely interested in trains talking with a dealer. The dad was supprised Lionel was still in business. Had no idea they were still around. Thedad saw the $250 sticker on a rail sounds equiped engine and commented, "We were able to try remote control airplanes and cars for less than that. I had no idea they were that much. Seems a bit much for a single engine." The dealer, a good guy I had bought from the previous day, admitted he had not brought any starter sets and gave the girl a 2003V2 catalog.

I would like to see someone offer a quality set as a loss leader at a $70 - $80 priice point.

[Big_Boy_4005]

The idea of a loss leader is very interesting!!! Maybe the older crowd would be willing to pay something like $2 per $100 extra to support such a program. Of course I don't really see why we should have to do something like this, but making such an offer may be the only way to get Lionel's attention on this issue. There is a drawback though, baiting beginners with low prices may backfire by only delaying the sticker shock until the expansion phase.

As for GATS, I really don't know if they have been helpful or harmful to the hobby. On the one hand they may be the cause of some of the public mall shows drying up, by baiting away the groups that used to do those shows for free, and charging admission to see them then paying them for participating. On the other hand putting all the vendors together is like having a train superstore that travels.

[Anonymous]

The comments about the prices of trains are, in my opnion, spot on. Prices are the problem. Yes, you CAN buy a radio controlled car, ready to run, for less than the price of a single scale Lionel engine withi TMCC & Railsounds. These toys are indeed the competition that Lionel & the others are up against for the family dollars. Just as slot cars were the competition in the 60s.

Last year, when I bought my son his Great Train Robbery set, I had only recently found out that Lionel was still in business, much as that father that smcrawford mentioned. I was taken aback at the cost of the Lionel starter sets in the hobby shop at the time. It was only after buying & having to return a Bachmann HO set that we went for the Lionel set.

Do I regret the decision? No. But let me tell you, I sure as shooting wouldn't complain if the volumes went up & the prices came down.

ChesBchRy:

Yep, I worked for Chase Manhattan for 4.5 years, starting in March, 1990. The problem, I believe, is that modern american business is too focused on the bottom line & looking for ways to "cut expenses" that involves making fewer workers do more work.

I'm not a big fan of american business practices.

Tony

[Anonymous]

How many "kids" under the age of 20 carry $100 bils in thier wallets/purses??? Unless their dealin drugs, the answer is ZERO!!! How many train OEM's offer a complete train set with sound, lights, reverse, ect for $ 100...ZERO!

The OEM's are catering to the Collector NOT the train operator. Look at how many high end ($ 1K +) locomotives they offer verses "affordable" (under $ 200) engines. The math is easy. They (OEM's) know where the $$$ are at and they are targeting that market.

Anyone care to guess where thier market will be in 10 or 20 years when the "collector" of today is "takin the dirt nap"??? I see many CHEAP train auctions coming on the horizon if KIDS are not getting involved NOW!!

[Anonymous]

Hi
I normaly stay away from toy rains comment but this one caught my interest.
How do toy trains compete with the latest shot it up blow it up computor game.
When toy trains cost more than the games set up.
Have any of you taken a toy train to the local Model railway exhibition,
to show the public.
I might point out that that a model railway is only a toy train built too a set scale throughout and most railway modelers started with a toy trains.
Most of the toy trains I have seen lately are plastic made in china rubbish
so what chance have you got?
What is need is the reputable toy companies to bring their prices down
ADD PLAY VALUE, my fondest toy train memory is a Triang giraffe car that the giraffe pulled its head down on aproaching a tunnel.
far more important forget about the big kids and collectors and get back too
marketing too children at pocket money prices.
The big kids will still buy them regardless as that is their hobby and the collectors will still collect.
But if the manufacturers don't recapture the childrens maket then none of us
toy or model hobbiest will have anything to buy as the companies will have gone broke.
Well that must be at least fifty cents worth
appologies for shocking spelling.
regardsJohn

[Anonymous]

ken (and others here)...

This is an interesting topic. As I said earlier, apparently many people are getting
the same idea all at once! Maybe the time for a turn-around is nearer than we
think! Other sites are showing the same emotions and comments. Even the big
"fraternity" site voices these same concerns. The train companies are not the
only ones propogating the "collector" and "investor" myth. I just received my TCA
Newsletter today and what do I see but a letter ba a member in the "Sound Off"
column regarding the unaffordable prices of TCA merchandise and the suggestion
that TCA offer more reasonably priced items to real working-stiff folk who want to
enjoy the hobby. On another page TCA shows a "membership thermometer" that
record a loss of almost 1000 members in the last 4 years alone. Also the pages
of the TCA publications are routinely acknowledging the passing of ever-growing
numbers of members. Granted TCA has begun trying to cultivate a "renewable
resource" by starting the TCA "Kids Club" (hate that word "kids"!). Now maybe the
organization will lobby on behalf of its members to the train companies about
offering a more affordable line of rolling stock. ( We can dream, can't we?) On
the other hand, I have noticed over the last 5-8 years of attending York (been going
for 20 years) that less people are actually buying and more are just looking. The
vendors are beginning to take notice as well. I noticed a definite attitude shift in a
lot of them. Yes, the big companies are still aloof and country-club like, but the
smaller cottage-industry guys are more open to suggestions. For all of Mike Wolf's
faults (real or perceived) he always is there and always tries to talk to ordinary
people who visit his booth. The folks at K-Line's display were very helpful and infor-
mative. One fellow I talked to gave me his personal business card and even took
written notes of our conversation! I was part of a small group who were all hitting
him with the comments we see here on this site and he took down all of our ideas,
comments, critiques and, yes, praise (where applicable) and assured us that it
would be forwarded to Mr. Klien. THAT is respect for the customer! This same
gentleman also took time out to talk personally to a small child who came by with
his dad and asked some pretty neat questions about some of the locos and rolling
stock. This was a 6 year old who obviously was not going to be spending wads of
cash, yet the K-Line employee still treated him like a paying customer! GOOD! I
saw Mr. Wolf personally GIVE some hard-to-find prewar (duplicate) parts to an older
fellow who was shopping at his booth. Told him "no charge" and glad he could help.
I visited the RMT booth and talked at length with them and they recognize the pot-
ential for the youth/starter market as is evidenced by the "BEEP"s. I was told that
there may be some other things to come in the future! They also sold everything
that they had on hand there! GOOD again! If these people can do it, why can't the
bigger guys like Lionel, Atlas, etc. do the same?

As for "old train" prices begining to fall...well 'ken' got the right idea. Between less
"disposable" income and more "collections" being liquidated at estate sales, the
"street prices" of "collectibles" are dropping. This, alone, should alert the train
manufacturers to a change in the "market". Will they react favorably? I doubt it.

The only alternative to getting affordable toy trains into the hands of a younger
generation is for those of us in the hobby to periodically procure some inexpensive
second-hand stuff, refurb it and give it to a deserving person. I have done this many
times in my life. As old Martha would say..."It's a good thing!" Besides...As I saw on
a bumper sticker at York this year..."He who dies with the most toys, still dies!"
(I like my sig line better, though [:)] ).

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm not sure why everyone is wishing for prices to come down here. It ain't gonna happen. If you really believe that it could, you're kidding yourself. Beside, I think if you adjust for inflation, you won't find prices today much different those 50, 75, or even 100 years ago. The numbers seem large, but they seemed large back then too. People's priorities were different then. Maybe the trains haven't changed, we have. Did we hear out parents complain about the prices? Maybe this is the mentality of the manufacturers. Maybe this is why they needed to move production to China, to keep costs in line with those of the past.

Our government prides itself on it's ability to keep inflation low. But over time it adds up. Think about things cost back in the 50's, then compare.

[Anonymous]

Elliot;

I think that we are all just wondering why, if a couple of train manufacturers
can offer reasonably priced locos, cars and accessories for the "average
bear", then why can't the others? You have to admit that Mr. Klein isn't won-
dering where his next meal is coming from...he's doing all right. The guys
at RMT are doing well as a business. Mike wolf is offering SOME stuff for the
lower price market and he's not starving or laying off anyone. If they can do
it, then so can the bigger companies like Lionel, Atlas, et al. Even when ad-
justed for "inflation" and such, today's trains are more expensive than their
predecessors. When we were young we as children could actually save our
allowances, grass cutting/snow shovelling, and other small cash and buy
at least SOME things ourselves. That is no longer possible for today's child-
ren, even though they have more money that we had back then. The gripe
today is that even ADULTS who are making UPPER MIDDLE CLASS salaries
cannot comfortably afford to indulge in this hobby, let alone introduce a child
to it. The other gripe is that the manufacturers would rather produce a badly-
working museum-detailed "shelf model" for the "discerning collector and in-
vestor" than a good quality, sturdy, decently detailed, reliable train set that can
be affordable by someone other than a member of the Fortune 500 and operated
by someone who does not possess and engineering degree from MIT.

The museum-detailed models are wonderful and have their rightful place in the
hobby by the people who can afford such, but there is so much wasted potential
by not also offering a nice, well proportioned, cast-in-detailed loco and train set
using proven simple technology to ordinary people looking for a hobby that can
involve everyone in the family. Williams is a good example of this. He can make
a very nice loco that is reasonably priced, that is very nicely detailed and is very
reliable right out of the box, and doesn't NEED all of the whiz-bang techno-gadgets.

We will never see 1950s pricing again. We will never see the 1950s again.
(Except at my house [:)] ) But it is not asking too much to see affordability and
quality again! As for the companies reaching out to youth...No, I DON'T see that
they are doing that. Other products place advertising in front of their target mar-
kets. The train companies don't and then they wonder why only older people
buy. It's like that movie ... "Build it and they will come." Lotta logic to that.

As others here have said, the train companies need to go back to posting ads
in periodicals and media viewed by children. That is not being done now. The
odd thing is that not only would this result in more exposure, but I'm almost sure
that an ad in a periodical such as Boys' Life, a regional news paper comic section,
or even a home-improvement or parents magazine (broader exposure) would
cost a lot less per inch than a similar ad in a 'specialty' publication that is only
read by people already in the hobby.

Your train layout that you displayed was a form of advertising and it reached MANY
more people than an ad in one of the hobby magazines. As you said yourself,
parents stopped by with their children and grandchildren and long-dormant in-
terest was renewed. Lionel and Marx used to have similar display layouts in
stores seasonally and it, too, boosted revenues for a relatively small outlay in
funds. This is not complicated here, just plain common sense. I really think we
are on to something here and this would be a great place for some of the 'big
wigs' to come and get some free 'focus group' information at NO COST!

Watcha think?

[3railguy]

These are my opinions:

Today's kids are into HO because it is more affordable than O gauge. This is OK because while they model in HO, they are exposed to big O gauge with TMCC, sounds, and all. Even though they can't afford O gauge, they yearn for it. This yearning will stay with them into their adulthood when they will be able to afford O gauge. How many of us had inexpensive trains as kids but yearned for big Lionel F-3's and grew up to collect them as adults? Quite a few from what I've seen. Lionel is doing everything they can to generate a kid's market but there is too much competition with HO. They (Lionel or MTH) have to generate the demand before they can afford big buck advertising. They are in sort of a grid lock. Their only real source of income is adults. It's hard for us to subsidize because we complain too much about the prices. I see nothing wrong with Lionel catering mainly to adults if that's where the demand is. If this is an adult hobby, then so be it. Why is that so bad?

The TCA membership decline isn't a good indicator that the market is declining. The TCA is a collector based organization and many of today's O gaugers are more model railroaders (hi railers) than collectors. Plus we have more train organizations now such the LCCA and LOTS. The TCA is based on the east coast which makes it inconvenient for mid west and west coast people. We have eBay too that has taken a huge share of the market.

So, tomorrow's O gaugers are here today. They are just modeling in HO right now.

[daan]

Pfui, that was a lot of posting to read (specially in English,it has a bit more effort then dutch). When children come over to watch my layout they are ENOURMOUS ENTHOUSIASTIC about the size and impressiveness of the trains in gauge 0. If you have h0, it is small compared to these machines. They would love to have one, BUT THEY CAN'T BUY IT HERE!! Seen the prices in the comments I think if Lionel would use the same pricing in Europe, marklin and fleischmann would have tough competition. Starter sets in europe (very tiny, beep like engine, 2 gondola's and a circle of track with simple transformer) will set you back around 100 euro's (125 dollars)
A lionel set as mentioned before would cost 120 dollars. Guess which one will attract more children? The big one of course!
The whole problem on this side of the atlantic is excactly as on your side; trainbuilders forget to make small affordable sets for children. ONLY marklin makes a special,less detailed and stronger build line (hobby-line) specially for kids, based on trains from the 70's. They are good quality and a steam engine with tender costs about 100 euro's.
A stsrter set will still have a 100 euro sign on it, but is with DELTA-control (4 trains at once) and has 3 wagons and a more attractive engine. ROCO, an austrian factory also starts to get the point and has begun to make a product-line which is less detailed and simpler painted, but with the same strong ROCO technoligy inside as the expensive ones. A 4 axle diesel sets you back about 60 euro's.
Still it's a bit on the hefty side for pocketmoney, but teenagers who work a bit besides school can buy those, and parents are more interested to buy those things for their kids. For a comparison, a playstation 2 costs about 250 euro's (300 dollars) in Europe.
Here they starting to learn, now only start to use the right scale, then I'll be satisfied too.

[FJ and G]

Daan,

Yes, I think there are markets in Europe for 3-rail trains; good-quality starter sets with cool operating accessories. Hey, they've got McDonalds KFC, and even DisneyWorld in Europe, why not Lionel trains?

My daughter is 17 and was never much interested in trains. If I ever get another kid (I'm 47 so I guess that's a possibility if I ever find someone), then definitely 3-rail trains, as I'm an advocate of bigger is better, but to be perfectly honest, I really think that a kid would enjoy G scale as well; esp. outdoors in the backyard. The prices are lower in some cases than 3rail as well. I've got my sights set on G for the future.

dav

[brianel027]

Thanks David for the reference and the starting of this post. Yep, this is a topic that can bring me out of the woods for a moment...

There are many good observations here made by you folks. I like the quote "out of sight, out of mind" in reference to advertising. It's the truth. I've been saying it for years. I'm astounded with how many folks STILL believe Lionel isn't even in business any more. The wonderful and innovative idea for their logo marketing campaign - where the Lionel name was on every kind of item - had no reference to the Lionel company itself, how to contact the company, where to find Lionel trains or even that the trains are being made.

A wonderful advertising idea that was only half baked. Advertising needs to lead the customer to the company and the product. I'm sure for many who bought those keychains, clocks and tins that had the Lionel name on it still have no idea the trains are still being made. The licensing program should have had a stipulation that there be some kind of reference or mandated line on how to contact Lionel or how to find their website.

One more thing that hasn't been mentioned directly here that I've said before, and will say again. It is the quest to please the adult market that has also helped place the beginner market in the back seat. The precious dollars are being placed into product development and tooling for scale-sized adult products. The move of production from Michigan to China hasn't saved any money for the customer buying Lionel product. Prices on Lionel product haven't fallen much at all save for a few select items. The move did enable Lionel to divert more money though into product development of the new scale-sized, scale detailed product we have seen since the move was made. There has been hardly any new tooling or product development for beginners and non-scale traditional product. The last thing in this area from Lionel was the Waffle Box Car from 1995 - and I'm glad they've put this in their tradtional starter car line up.

Lionel has name recognition the others could only dream of having. This is an asset they have not fully taken advantage of. And Lionel currently does have the best selection of starter sets and separate sale cars in the most varied price ranges. Even though others may actually have better product.

K-Line doesn't have the name recognition. And even though their sets may be a better quality value, they are more expensive currently than some Lionel sets. The new high powered transformer they include in their sets may account for some of the higher price - but most folks when shopping for their first set do not appreciate the value in this. K-Line I believe made a mistake by not coming out with an intermediate transformer... they went from the bare-bones cheapo one they used for years to a cadillac version overnight. And I think the "Kid's 0" line up is a gimmick. More reults could be obtained by using existing tooling and product with an emphasis on making these items more attractive to newcomers. The battery powered sets are a waste of time. If K-Line could get them into a mass retailer, they might have some effect. But they won't with their current train shop availability only status.

MTH has come out with some real top quality train sets. But again, they do not have the name recognition and they are too pricey for many beginners - even though they may ultimately be worth the extra money... beginners do not understand this.

Nor do beginners see the advantages of all the added electronics, unless they know someone already who is in the hobby and helping them to select a set. What they do see from the added electronics is the added expense. Time and time and time again I have heard from parents that the electronics and control systems are NOT important. What is important is PRICE, QUALITY and PLAY VALUE. An 99.5% all plastic RS-3 engine is NOT quality. A starter set with no operating car is NOT play value. And $25 for a starter set train car is NOT the price many parents will be enticed by. This isn't hard to figure out! God, I'm out of work and yet I can figure this stuff out. I didn't need to hear it from hundreds upon hundreds of parents. Not one parent I have ever talked to has expressed interest in command control! I let them know about it too. It's an added expense that many cannot afford.

The other thing I heard at train shows (aside from the comments on why aren't I married) was why wasn't I running Lionel? Women would comment on my marital status after watching me take the time to demonstrate the trains to the kids. But the men would comment that Lionel needed some out-of-the-box innovative, creative thinking like mine. I don't know how many times I heard comments like "that's a real good idea... Lionel should be doing that."

It is as others have said here, it is the bottom line that is controlling the show. More than the other companies, Lionel is a corporate environment... there are investors to be pleased first, before kids and beginners. It was more than obvious to me that John Brady is very unhappy at Lionel from his piece in OGRR. I read it and thought here's a guy who hates his job and wants to be let go. I had others say the same exact thing upon reading that piece. One said "there's a guy who really wants to be fired."

I've have made the statement in the past that I could run Lionel better than others have. I once was invited to speak on the topic of trains and kids. After my talk, one guy came up, shook my hand and told me MK should step down as President of K-Line and put me in charge of the company as he had never heard anyone before from K-Line speak with so much conviction and passion on seeing trains get back into the hands of kids. But passion and conviction amount to very little in today's business environment.

But truth be told, I know there is a lot more going on a Lionel than meets the eye. I'm sure that one man's decision doesn't carry much weight at Lionel these days. As I'm certain there is tremendous pressure for the company to show a profitable performance to Wellspring.

And of course, none of these stupid lawsuits and legal actions help the hobby or the companies involved in the suits. It wastes time and diverts money. It might up end being written with no small irony that the company (MTH) that did so very much to pu***he hobby forward, may also be the very same company that helps to destroy the hobby... not by free market or competition, but in the courtroom instead.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

It is a sad state of affairs, when you don't enjoy your work. I skimmed over those interviews in OGR mag because most of them looked like infomercials instead of serious discussions about the future. I'll go back and read the Lionel one.

If I had to choose a toy train company to work for, I think I would pick Atlas. They are pricey but they always seem to have great quality stuff, whether 21st century signal system, track, attention to detailing; they always seem to be at the top of their game.
dav

[Anonymous]

I'm not so sure tomorrow's O gager's are modeling HO today. The first reason I got into HO first was I bought into the myth that HO could be done on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and O couldn't. The second was I thought that HO still had playability. This was based on a book that showed quite a few TYCO opperating accessories. Sometimes I'm slow took me awhile to figure out that the reason I could not find any was that TYCO had gotten out of the market. I couldn't find anything like a culvert loader . Thor's site proved to me O could be done in a 4 x 8 space.

From what I have observed non-train parents and train interested children are drawn to the busy playability of O at shows as contrasted to the modeling skill exhibited by HO and N displays where the only action is on the tracks. I still believe afordable, <$100, quality , expandable Lionel style O is what is required to save the hobby.

I believe there is one part to the equation Elliot left out. He is right that if you place 1950 prices in terms of 2004 dollars. The prices do track fairly well. Where the difference comes in is income. I am convinced that if you are not making 10 times what you or your father was earning in the mid 60's you do not have the buying power he did. So while a 20 - 50 dollar starter set in the 50's may well convert to $150 to $200 2004 dollars the percentage of income used to buy the set is greater today than in the 50's.

Some of the Fed Reserve web sites have CPI calculators that do the conversions and I want to play with them some more.

This is just my [2c]. Take care guys

Steve

[lander31]

This has been a good topic to follow.
As a new member to the form and O gauge railroading, I would like to add some of my views.
I got started with O gauge when my son was given a lionel engine and tender this past year. I then went to the local hobby shop to get some track and acc. for him. I was shocked at the prices of the starter sets and of the engines.
Since then I have attend train shows and picked up some postwar lionel trains and acc. and restoring them. The engines and other postwar acc. have been great for us to get started and have not been a big bite on the family budget. We do not need all of the new bell and whistles that are on new engines. I have watched people at the hobby shop pick up starter sets and then put them down when they see the prices and move on to a HO or N gauge.
We have a blast just watching the trains on semi fasten down layout some of teh used acc we picked up at train shows.
The main thing for me is how long will my son play with it and is it easy for me and him to maintain it and not cost a lot. I know one thing since we got the trains he has leaned how to wire them up and the switches, it has open up new doors of learning for him. This is very important to me I want him to have fun play with the trains but also learn on how they work and the care of them.

Terry

[cheapclassics]

I am not sure if the following comment is germane to the conversation, but perhaps it may shed some light on the situation. One of the reasons post war costs were so low was the lack of product variety. Take the 6462 long gondola. For most of the time it was made, it had one number and one road name (NYC). The body color may have changed over the years, and the amount of detail decreased, but it was the same car. Lionel could make huge runs to reduce cost further because they were under no pressure from collectors to make it in another road name. When you look at the number of "new" products each year, it is surprising to see how few original items were offered each year. Nowadays, even the $25 starter set cars are revamped each year with little carryover.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smcrawford

I'm not so sure tomorrow's O gager's are modeling HO today. The first reason I got into HO first was I bought into the myth that HO could be done on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and O couldn't. The second was I thought that HO still had playability. This was based on a book that showed quite a few TYCO opperating accessories. Sometimes I'm slow took me awhile to figure out that the reason I could not find any was that TYCO had gotten out of the market. I couldn't find anything like a culvert loader . Thor's site proved to me O could be done in a 4 x 8 space.

From what I have observed non-train parents and train interested children are drawn to the busy playability of O at shows as contrasted to the modeling skill exhibited by HO and N displays where the only action is on the tracks. I still believe afordable, <$100, quality , expandable Lionel style O is what is required to save the hobby.

I believe there is one part to the equation Elliot left out. He is right that if you place 1950 prices in terms of 2004 dollars. The prices do track fairly well. Where the difference comes in is income. I am convinced that if you are not making 10 times what you or your father was earning in the mid 60's you do not have the buying power he did. So while a 20 - 50 dollar starter set in the 50's may well convert to $150 to $200 2004 dollars the percentage of income used to buy the set is greater today than in the 50's.

Some of the Fed Reserve web sites have CPI calculators that do the conversions and I want to play with them some more.

This is just my [2c]. Take care guys

Steve

Good points Steve!! So basicly your [2c] adjusted for inflation looks like this:

[2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c][2c]

Wasn't a gallon of gas under a quarter? 10 X is about the correct factor. When it comes to gasoline I think our government has been covering for us, keeping prices unrealisticly low for too long. This helps the people in office look good with the voters, but now we get sticker shock, and here comes inflation.

The other great point here is, because of the size of our trains, we do get much better PLAY value. This size allows to have the action accessories, and the electro couplers, and all the sound!!! I know some of the HO and N guys are envious, and with good cause!!! [swg]

Maybe this is why wooden trains are so popular, play value combined with lower cost.

[daan]

If compared to normal German / Austrian brand model railways, even Lionel trains are comparable, and have much more to offer. If I see the prices in CTT or on the internetshops, I've a hard time not to get a credit-card. Compared to what we are used to here, they are not expensive. A normal Roco Br01 sets you back for almost 300 euro's, that's a normal price. For that money you can also have genuine Lionel!
And, even if Lionel seems to be expensive in the USA, a Roco engine is not in a good shape after 50 years, and certanly won't run, but my F3's are 50+ years old, and worked as soon as there was any voltage on the tracks. May be not the cheapest, but quality it is!
The whole problem seems to me that the directors of the big toytrainfactory's don't actually enjoy playing trains, but are there because they know things about earning money. One of the most important things is:
Keep production there where people buy the stuff. You can abort things to china, but no-one in china wants those trains and with their wage they wouldn't even be able to buy them. BUT in the mean time, you take away the money to a different country, where different people get paid where they don't buy your products with.
The people who do want your products must first find a job somewhere else, and because every investor runs away to China, there are not that much jobs left. With that you don't get much of your product sold. Yes, IF you sell something, you earn a bit more, because the margin on your product is higher, but it's the wrong way. If you sell one locomotive and have 25 dollars profit, you did a good job. But if you sell 1000 engines with only one dollar profit each, you did much better!
Investors need to focus on something FORD invented, he simplified the production of cars, and paid his workers that much that they could buy one of these cars themselves. That is marketing and that is profitable, it works much better than running away to china to save money on personell and then getting back to amerika with your trains and expecting people to spend their elsewhere earned money on your, still expensive trains..
If you emagine what an impact a factory has, and how many people earn their money that way. Take my factory. It employs 750 men and women directly, there needs to be at least 40 tons of potatoes each hour, so each hour one truckload. Those trucks are driven by contractors. Also these potatoes need to be grown and harvested, need to be saved for the rest of the year, etc. So at least 100 big farmers, with each 10 men personell. The fries need to be transported too, also by trucks, also to warehouses across europe. let's say 100 different places, each with 10 men personell. Also all the contractors building new things, making new machines taking care of the waste, factory's which make the cardboard boxes, the foil for the bags etc.
Emagine all those things around that factory and then remove the place...
It is not only those 750 people (750 families!) that lost their job.. Eventually the number of persons loosing their jobs as a result of closing that factory is about 5 times bigger, so almost 4500 families.
Emagine Lionel had a factory which had 50 employees, moving that one factory to china means that 250 families can't buy their trains anymore. Every factory has such an impact on it's surroundings.
Therefore it is important to keep production near the buyers.
But that's only to the subject of how much there is to spend on trains..