Where Does All The Dirt Come From?

[Anonymous]

but then...

i can never remember how to get the Doors tune out of my head...
[xx(][:P][:)][:D]

[Anonymous]

everywhere nuff said

[FJ and G]

Here's something to trigger that song in your head:



People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange

People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange

[Anonymous]

i had a friend tell me once that "People are Strange" by "The Doors" would stop any other song that was going through your head. he was studying for his doctorate in psychology and being the dope that i am i believed him. it has worked for me ever since.[;)]

[Anonymous]

Every time I read the title of this thread, I keep thinking of the old folk song, "Where have all the flowers gone?"

Gotta put some Tull or Floyd on the radio tonite to get that outta my head..

Tony

[jkerklo]

Well, It sounds like the dirt comes from everywhere!

My guess would be mostly lubricating oil. I use a needle oiler on wheels, but it is difficult to not oil to much. Dirty track is the price paid.

For cleaning old track, I use a rotary wire brush with fine wires mounted on a bench tool. One about 5" in diameter for really rusty track, and one with brass wires about 2" in diameter for rail sides. Actually, I don't clean track much, being lazy, so I mostly buy new track.

For cleaning track on the layout, I use a shop rag and 70% isopropyl rubbing alcohol. It's cheap. I bought some "safe" track cleaner once and it turned out to be nothing but alcohol diluted enough to not burn. Expensive, though. I do wonder if alcohol is the best solvent for removing track gunk. I use it because it is cheap and I know it won't hurt scenery or rolling stock.

I also use alcohol, pieces of rag, and Q-tips to clean wheels. I like the idea putting a rag on a track section and running the car over it. I will have to try it.

Sometimes I use one of those green 3M "Brite Pads." They work well for cleaning, without scratching. The finer ones for the kitchen work well on track. The coarser ones targeted for wood finishing also have uses.

I use a track cleaning car, but also question whether it does anything useful.


John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[daan]

The real-life rail is also tubular, though not in a complete shape of a tube. The top of a 1:1 rail has a radius in it! The only rail which is surface flat is model rail, because it's not that expensive to make. Because trainwheels have a gradient built in, the train settles like a plane with V-shape in the air. It prevents derailment (train is forced into a "dip"). When more traction is needed then the contact of the wheels can guarantee, they supply sand, which fills up the spaces caused by the radius on the rail and the tangent of the wheelshape. It widens the gripspace on the rail and therefore boosts the power which can be applied to it.
Therefore 3 rail tubular-rail is most like the real thing in construction and operation. (Looks are obviously not.) therefore you don't need to clean it, the train "wiggles" between the two guiding rails and with that grinds the small contact area of it.
Remember also that an engine has better contact in curves, that's because nor the inside nor the outside wheels turn at the right speed for the distance they have to cover. We don't have differentials in our axles, so the wheels have an extra grinding function.
Also, because the contact area is so small, the train won't drive over the dirt, but pushes it aside. With the normal flat rail the train will run over it, lifting it's wheel from the rails and braking the powerdistribution.
Last but not least is weight! Weight is everything when you talk about dust, again because it limits the effect of getting your wheels lifted by dirt on your track.
That was quite a story, hope no-one is asleep by now?

[Anonymous]

I believe the cross section of the rails on FasTrack is also tubular, though not the same exact shape as older rails.

And I believe they're still making O-31 & O-27 track.

Tony

[FJ and G]

Yes, the real trains too have a bit of a slope to them and contact is minimal. One might assume, possibly incorrectly? that the fast-angled wheels might match the tubular angle a bit better than Atlas-type rails; but I also would think that if there were any advantage, it would be so minimal as to be barely detectable. But Lionel seemed to have gotten a lot of mileage out of the argument; possibly scaring people into buying their track. I'm not sure what their line is now that they've got Fasttrack. I don't even know if they make tubes anymore.

[Anonymous]

David:

You got me there. I saw a posting on OGR, I think it was in the Standards Forum in the discussion by AGHR Matt called "Let's get rid of the fast angle wheel" or something like that. There was an illustration in one of the posts that I believe wasn't to scale & was a bit exaggerated to make everything more visible.

The illustration showed the fast angle wheel on the rail head. As I recall, the wheel didn't sit so much on top of the rail as against the part of the rail on the inside that starts to curve down. It appears that only a very little part of the wheel is actually in contact with the rail.

When the wheels go into a curve, the forces on the axle make the outside wheel ride higher so the part with a larger diameter is touching the rail. Conversely, on the inside, the part with a smaller diameter rides the rail. Since both wheels are on a solid axle, they both spin at the same rate. This makes the outer wheel cover more ground than the inner wheel does. This helps the wheels go around the corners.

Now, I know that the wheels on the real thing have a similar "fast angle" thing going on, though the profile may not be as extreme as on the model. And if it works on the real thing with prototypical rail, why wouldn't it work on model rail with the same cross section?

Tony

[FJ and G]

Tony,

This would be a good time to discuss wheel to rail contact. When I got my Lionel starter set in 2000, it came with instructions that advised the user to only purchase Lionel tubular track as the fast-angled wheels worked best with that.

Undoubtedly, an advertising tool; but any truth to that? If true, it would imply better wheel to rail contact and dirty track would be less critical an issue than with prototypically dimensioned rail such as RealTrax or Atlas.

Dave v.

[Anonymous]

f14aplusfl:

Why would you have to clean under the rail heads, or the webbing (the vertical part just below the head) on the rails? The wheels don't make contact with that part of the rail. In fact, if you look at the rails on the prototype, you'll see that only the very tops of mainline rail are shiny; the rest is covered in surface rust / dirt, or maybe that rust colored stuff is some kind of preservative/paint.

Cleaning the underside of the rail head doesn't improve electrical conductivity; it just seems like extra work.

Tony

[Anonymous]

I've been using 99% alcohol to clean my track for 15 years. I've been running engines with traction tires for nearly as long. I have never had to replace a traction tire because it melted or otherwise fell fell apart. In fact, I've only replaced two traction tires since I've been in 3 Rail and I caused both incidents. I clean my track about once every month or so and I do it with a rag and alcohol. I clean the wheels on my cars and engines about once a year and I clean the pickup rollers on my cars and engines after each running session. John

[FJ and G]

Woodsy,

I think a certain amount of bobbing and weaving actually looks good. The FJ&G railroad had tracks that were noticeably crooked, so if you are modeling a shortline, it is really cool; along with the sparks flying and smoke and noise. Good stuff.

dav

[f14aplusfl]

I run HO scale and haven't cleaned it for like 12 years now and will if I'm going to run trains anytime soon. Its time to go figure out where in the area I can get bright boy, else its an alcohol based solution. What mix do you use/ perfer?, Lionel I've had for 15 years and never cleaned them. I picked up some O-27 track about 10 yuears ago that was light back on the top and the trains run just fine.

The problem with the car mounted cleaners is I do not think they get into all the right areas of the track. The rails are rounded at the top and curve to almost a cirle and goes straight down almost, and into the horizontal base. I don't think it gets under the rail head. That you have to clean yourself somehow. With a smaller scale, the build up there causes problems faster than a larger scale.... and my Lionels don't care that this dirt is in there anyway..

[Anonymous]

dave and daan, i have a small door-top layout built entirely of rusty and bent up old lionel 027 track and all i did was grab a piece of 400 grit wet/dry and knock the heavier rust off the top of the rail and the inside where the flanges rub. the trains do a bit of bobbing and weaving on the straights due to the the bending i have tried to straighten out and it still works fine. [^][:O][:P]

[FJ and G]

I've visited professional HO layouts in the past and have seen their trains stall frequently, due to dirt that is almost too small to see; despite their efforts at cleaning the tracks. To me the question of thiss post: "Where does all the dirt come from," should instead be:

"Our toy trains run despite all the dirt."

dav

----------------

daan, seeing your trains "hump and wiggle" must be funny

[daan]

I still have a small N-layout, but it remained untouched since the F3's came..[:D]
Even if you could see your face mirroring in the tiny rail of gauge N (you need sharp eyes to do so) the trains would hump and wiggle like you just had 10ft of snow covering your tracks. It's very frustrating. I have my trains running on maerklin 3 rail prewar and (though not rusted) that works great. I need some extra power lines however to ensure that everywhere on my layout is the same voltage.

[cnw1995]

I share Dave's observation and amazement that my 248 can run on 60 year old never-been-cleaned track that is the color of real rail whenever the wires are hooked up...whereas (and I mean nothing against the scale) my n scale engines used to stop dead on slightly tarnished track. That sort of 'fiddliness', and their near-constant trouble going through turn-outs, drove me out of that scale.

[daan]

@ben10ben, besides scraping rust, sandpaper also reforms the surface of your track. Instead of a flat shiny surface, it gets full of very fine and tiny scratches. Those scratches become dustbins and start to collect smudge which is very difficult to remove, because it is in the surface of your track instead of on it. That's my major concern about sandpaper. With rust (if everything you have is prewar rusty track) than sandpaper (and a new tin coat) is the only option..

[Anonymous]

i read an article once that teased us "3-railers and O-gauge-ers" for not cleaning our rails unless they started to "smell bad". i thought it was pretty funny. i have been rebuilding and cleaning loads of old postwar stuff to keep myself busy while waiting to build my layout and some (almost half of the postwar rolling stock) of the wheel "treads" cant be seen until i scrape, scrub, and wire bru***he black smear-gunk off the wheels![:D][:O] the pilot wheels on lots of locos seem to be the worst, second place goes to all the older postwar flat tread wheels (non-fast angle). my fast angle wheels dont seem to collect the gunk at the same rate. in any case, i think i've almost beaten this post to death with my gunk. but the only thing for certain with toy trains is gunk, death and taxes.[:I][8)][:-,][:D]

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

That may be. I've read postings by guys who seem to like the smoke output to be so high, they need a gas mask to breath. (Yes, an exaggeration, but you get the point). In any event, I tend to use only a drop of oil on each point applied with a the needle tip on the Lionel oiler, and I was still getting some of that blank gunk, until recently.

I know my son pretty much emptied an entire tube of smoke fluid into the smoke unit on my old JLC Hudson, so there's a fair amount of smoke coming out of that one, when it runs. We haven't run that engine in quite a while, and I've turned smoke off on my command engine (the wife hates the stuff, even though she's a smoker, go figure). The amount of black gunk on the rails has fallen off markedly, in fact, I haven't cleaned them in a while. I can't see any gunk on them now.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

Correct Dave, but then we have larger surface areas for contact than smaller scales do.

Tony, I think the smoke fluid is a bit of a red herring and not much of an issue at all. Once airborne, it spreads out and settles on everything, not just the track. The quantities of oil used for smoke are tiny, compared to lubrication.

[ben10ben]

Daan,
Whether to use sandpaper on your track or not depends on a couple of things. There's quite a bit of track on the market today that's stainless steel or nickel silver, which won't rust or oxidize at all.
There are also plenty of things that can take the tinplating off your track, most notably electrical arcing from shorts(derailments). Postwar track is often found already rusted, and sandpaper is the best thing to use to clean it off as well.
Once the tinplating is off, sandpaper as the best thing to use on your track, as unprotected track WILL rust.

[FJ and G]

Regardless of all the gunk and mess, isn't it amazing that our 3-rail trains tolerate and still run on a fairly dirty track that would stop most smaller scale trains or even derail them?

[Anonymous]

also...
lots of the metal parts on toy trains and rolling stock are coated with a light film of oil during manufacture to prevent rust/oxidation and the pressed metal powder wheels can act somewhat like a sponge for oils. the metal powder that is pressed to form most o-gauge wheels has tons of microscopic holes/voids for oil to seep/wick into and continue rolling down onto your track.

what this means is....
YOUR TRACK WILL NEVER, EVER BE CLEAN IF YOU USE IT!!
[xx(][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

I thought most engine gears were lubed with white lithium grease, which shouldn't get on the rails unless you've put too much on & it splatters.

Oiling wheels & connecting rods, on the other hand, seems like a more likly suspect. Add to that the mineral oil from smoke fluid that's been vaporized & recondensed.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

You don't know from gunk until you have had to scrape it off as many wheels as I have. Woodsy's grandpa has the right idea, and if there is a way to create a splash guard on loco gear boxes, that might help even more. But maybe the biggest source of oil is wheel bearings. These may be far worse than gear boxes in messing up the rails.

[FJ and G]

All this dirty talking gives me a flashback to my HO days and brass track; remember brass HO track--the poor man's track, always at bargain prices compared to N/S.

Gunk on plastic HO wheels and brass rails, as well as oxidation makes me happy I'm in 3-rails.

Dave