Where Does All The Dirt Come From?

[jkerklo]

I was doing a bit of overdue track cleaning (alcohol on a shop rag) when it occured to me that the three black streaks on the rag all looked the same size. Why was the center streak as big as the two outside streaks?

It must mean that most of the dirt was coming from the sparking, breaking down track, rollers, and wheels.

Anyone ever seen anything, or have some ideas, about the source of dirt on track and the crud that builds up in the flange corner of wheels. The crud builds up even on trucks on non-powered cars.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

the Dirt Pixies.



Alan

[Dr. John]

Just think, you get to BREATHE the same stuff that ends up on your track!

Seriously, I think your problem is common to all model railroaders of all scales. You get a combination of dust, moisture, oxidation and oily residue from the engines and cars. I find that the residue returns quickly, especially if you don't run trains. For me, emory cloth, Brite Boys and alcohol based cleaners do the best - emory cloth or Brite Boys for heavy duty crud and alcohol with a soft cloth for lighter jobs (the alcohol evaporates quickly without leaving its own residue). Wheel crud is a tougher challenge - you can scrape it off, or saturate a paper towel in alcohol, lay it across an unpowered stretch of track, and roll cars across it - helps some.

Frequent running of metal wheels on metal track helps keep the track cleaner longer.

[ChiefEagles]

Why they make soft paint brushes. I live in 1940 built two story house and it is dusty. So you learn to dust keyboards, couple of fish mount trophies, wife's many menageries and other things with the paint bursh. It will work great on layouts too. After all, ever seen a clean railroad? [;)]

[ben10ben]

Mineral Oil from smoke tends to condense on the rails of O gauge track, making them even more likely to get the crud on the track than other gauges. Track covered in mineral oil is a magnet for dust and dirt.

[eZAK]

From polutents in the air of course!
Especialy if you like to vaporize oil. [:)]

Get an air cleaner for the size of your room and use them track cleaners.
I've been having good luck with the new Lionel version.

[daan]

To clean the track: NEVER USE SANDPAPER!!! it will scrape away your tin sheet fron the rail and rust will eat your tracks. From the european manufacturer ROCO you can get a rail cleaning gum, which works fabulous. Secondly, don't use engines with rubber bands around the wheels (extra traction). Those bands desintegrate in a year or two and they will smear themselves out across your layout.
Rubber is for cars, modeltrains don't have to have those. If they do, put in more weight.

[FJ and G]

John K,

Good morning. I asked the same question once and some model railroaders told me that the seemingly never ending gunk comes from traction tires. Possibly when you use solvents on the rails, it interacts with the rubber and the rails and wheels of rolling stock get a heavy black coating. And, even if you didn't use solvents, I suspect the rubber just naturally coats the rails.

In the future, I plan to buy some plyobond and remove the traction tires on a test locomotive and put the plyobond on instead. I've heard from several folks who've done that and say that plyobond works better than traction tires. I suspect there will be less residue as well.

The traction tires in HO seem to be made of a different material (vinyl?) than our own dirty black rubber ones, and it doesn't leave as much residue.

Dave Vergun

[cnw1995]

I didn't know the traction tires wear away. I have to check my Ballyhoo circus engine which I've run a million miles since Christmas. I've reused a lot of old track and some of the gunk seems to be simply oxidation. It rubs away with a bright boy eraser or ScotchBrite pad.

[FJ and G]

Doug,

Unless you are using brass rails, oxidation shouldn't be too much of a problem (common, correct me if I'm wrong, folks). Dust devils are another cause of dirt. My dusty New Mexico desert scene has frequent dust storms that blow across the tracks. To keep the dust down, I use a spray bottle of water to wash down the trees and stuff, but not the tracks.

The fellow in the CTT May04 feature cleaned his tracks only once in 10 years; but he keeps a dust-free basement.

Dave

[Anonymous]

it all space age polymers![:D]

but really, it's household dust, carbon (from the electric arcing), metal dust (from wheels and gears), and oils from the train lubes and smoke and i little rubber from the traction tires.

but mostly dust and oils.

[FJ and G]

Could also be smoke fluid residue?

Or possibly residue from the cigars you are smoking?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by woodsytc

it all space age polymers![:D]

but really, it's household dust, carbon (from the electric arcing), metal dust (from wheels and gears), and oils from the train lubes and smoke and i little rubber from the traction tires.

but mostly dust and oils.

This was exactly what I was thinking, especially the CARBON, hence the black color. Add dust to the oily mix and you get that gunk or crud buildup on wheels and rollers. It can get so thick that it has to be scraped off, and can even cause derailments if allowed to build up too long. It sometimes comes off the wheels in chunks, and deposits itself in the frogs of turnouts.

The key ingredient has to be the oil, without that the crud would not collect and "snowball". (Just MY theory) [swg]

[FJ and G]

Elliot & Woodsy,

So what is the lesson? Oil sparingly? If oil and grease are applied sparingly, might this dirt phenomenon still occur?

I'm thinking that it might. Let's for a moment use the mustard/hot dog analogy. You get your dog, flip it in the bun, lay a thick bead of ketchup, then add just a teeny weeny bead of mustard. Murphy's law states that a bunch of that tiny bit of mustard will end up on your clean white shirt.

Dave V

[Big_Boy_4005]

[dinner][dinner][(-D]Gee Dave all of this talk about hot dogs has made me hungry, so guess what I'm having for lunch.[swg]

Seriously, I like onions on my hot dog. Normally when I go to a sporting event, I put the onions on the dog first, then apply ketchup. When I go to the ball game on Wednesday, I'm going to try doing my condiments in reverse order, essentially using the ketchup to glue the onions to the dog, and keep them from falling in my lap.

The oil is what holds this mess to the track. Dust alone would simply fall off when the train went by. Any takers???[;)]

[Anonymous]

my grandfather always told me... "if two drops of oil looks about right. use ONLY ONE"

he almost NEVER used a dropper or oil tube/needle. he'd use a toothpick to transfer oil from the bottle/can to the wheel/axle or whatever it was he was oiling. so that he'd only be using a quarter-of-a-drop of oil or lube. too much oil allows more dust/dirt/etc. to stick in the wheel bearings and gears and can actually increase the friction. we found that switches/turnouts and bumps/imperfections in the rails were the dirtiest because of the shaking/vibration the train got as it crossed these bumps shook the crud onto the rails. we still had to clean the rails, but we probably only did it once a year. cleaning the wheels is as important as cleaning the tracks too. i remember seeing toy train cars that would ride tilted/crooked because of the gunk that stuck to the wheels and made a "tire" thick enough to make it ride high on one side[:D]

[Anonymous]

my grandfather always told me... "if two drops of oil looks about right. use ONLY ONE"

he almost NEVER used a dropper or oil tube/needle. he'd use a toothpick to transfer oil from the bottle/can to the wheel/axle or whatever it was he was oiling. so that he'd only be using a quarter-of-a-drop of oil or lube. too much oil allows more dust/dirt/etc. to stick in the wheel bearings and gears and can actually increase the friction. we found that switches/turnouts and bumps/imperfections in the rails were the dirtiest because of the shaking/vibration the train got as it crossed these bumps shook the crud onto the rails. we still had to clean the rails, but we probably only did it once a year. cleaning the wheels is as important as cleaning the tracks too. i remember seeing toy train cars that would ride tilted/crooked because of the gunk that stuck to the wheels and made a "tire" thick enough to make it ride high on one side[:D]

[FJ and G]

All this dirty talking gives me a flashback to my HO days and brass track; remember brass HO track--the poor man's track, always at bargain prices compared to N/S.

Gunk on plastic HO wheels and brass rails, as well as oxidation makes me happy I'm in 3-rails.

Dave

[Big_Boy_4005]

You don't know from gunk until you have had to scrape it off as many wheels as I have. Woodsy's grandpa has the right idea, and if there is a way to create a splash guard on loco gear boxes, that might help even more. But maybe the biggest source of oil is wheel bearings. These may be far worse than gear boxes in messing up the rails.

[Anonymous]

I thought most engine gears were lubed with white lithium grease, which shouldn't get on the rails unless you've put too much on & it splatters.

Oiling wheels & connecting rods, on the other hand, seems like a more likly suspect. Add to that the mineral oil from smoke fluid that's been vaporized & recondensed.

Tony

[Anonymous]

also...
lots of the metal parts on toy trains and rolling stock are coated with a light film of oil during manufacture to prevent rust/oxidation and the pressed metal powder wheels can act somewhat like a sponge for oils. the metal powder that is pressed to form most o-gauge wheels has tons of microscopic holes/voids for oil to seep/wick into and continue rolling down onto your track.

what this means is....
YOUR TRACK WILL NEVER, EVER BE CLEAN IF YOU USE IT!!
[xx(][:D][:D]

[FJ and G]

Regardless of all the gunk and mess, isn't it amazing that our 3-rail trains tolerate and still run on a fairly dirty track that would stop most smaller scale trains or even derail them?

[ben10ben]

Daan,
Whether to use sandpaper on your track or not depends on a couple of things. There's quite a bit of track on the market today that's stainless steel or nickel silver, which won't rust or oxidize at all.
There are also plenty of things that can take the tinplating off your track, most notably electrical arcing from shorts(derailments). Postwar track is often found already rusted, and sandpaper is the best thing to use to clean it off as well.
Once the tinplating is off, sandpaper as the best thing to use on your track, as unprotected track WILL rust.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Correct Dave, but then we have larger surface areas for contact than smaller scales do.

Tony, I think the smoke fluid is a bit of a red herring and not much of an issue at all. Once airborne, it spreads out and settles on everything, not just the track. The quantities of oil used for smoke are tiny, compared to lubrication.

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

That may be. I've read postings by guys who seem to like the smoke output to be so high, they need a gas mask to breath. (Yes, an exaggeration, but you get the point). In any event, I tend to use only a drop of oil on each point applied with a the needle tip on the Lionel oiler, and I was still getting some of that blank gunk, until recently.

I know my son pretty much emptied an entire tube of smoke fluid into the smoke unit on my old JLC Hudson, so there's a fair amount of smoke coming out of that one, when it runs. We haven't run that engine in quite a while, and I've turned smoke off on my command engine (the wife hates the stuff, even though she's a smoker, go figure). The amount of black gunk on the rails has fallen off markedly, in fact, I haven't cleaned them in a while. I can't see any gunk on them now.

Tony

[Anonymous]

i read an article once that teased us "3-railers and O-gauge-ers" for not cleaning our rails unless they started to "smell bad". i thought it was pretty funny. i have been rebuilding and cleaning loads of old postwar stuff to keep myself busy while waiting to build my layout and some (almost half of the postwar rolling stock) of the wheel "treads" cant be seen until i scrape, scrub, and wire bru***he black smear-gunk off the wheels![:D][:O] the pilot wheels on lots of locos seem to be the worst, second place goes to all the older postwar flat tread wheels (non-fast angle). my fast angle wheels dont seem to collect the gunk at the same rate. in any case, i think i've almost beaten this post to death with my gunk. but the only thing for certain with toy trains is gunk, death and taxes.[:I][8)][:-,][:D]

[daan]

@ben10ben, besides scraping rust, sandpaper also reforms the surface of your track. Instead of a flat shiny surface, it gets full of very fine and tiny scratches. Those scratches become dustbins and start to collect smudge which is very difficult to remove, because it is in the surface of your track instead of on it. That's my major concern about sandpaper. With rust (if everything you have is prewar rusty track) than sandpaper (and a new tin coat) is the only option..

[cnw1995]

I share Dave's observation and amazement that my 248 can run on 60 year old never-been-cleaned track that is the color of real rail whenever the wires are hooked up...whereas (and I mean nothing against the scale) my n scale engines used to stop dead on slightly tarnished track. That sort of 'fiddliness', and their near-constant trouble going through turn-outs, drove me out of that scale.

[daan]

I still have a small N-layout, but it remained untouched since the F3's came..[:D]
Even if you could see your face mirroring in the tiny rail of gauge N (you need sharp eyes to do so) the trains would hump and wiggle like you just had 10ft of snow covering your tracks. It's very frustrating. I have my trains running on maerklin 3 rail prewar and (though not rusted) that works great. I need some extra power lines however to ensure that everywhere on my layout is the same voltage.

[FJ and G]

I've visited professional HO layouts in the past and have seen their trains stall frequently, due to dirt that is almost too small to see; despite their efforts at cleaning the tracks. To me the question of thiss post: "Where does all the dirt come from," should instead be:

"Our toy trains run despite all the dirt."

dav

----------------

daan, seeing your trains "hump and wiggle" must be funny