Water pump question

[Anonymous]

In my water fall,into a pond I used the waterfall as the filter .The second stage has filter cartridges with carbone inserts along with the third stage. This keeps the water crystal clear and smell free as long as the carbone changed on time. As far as the turtle that's what I have, it's a great effect. Along with fish as you can see in my pictures. The turtle or crayfish won't escape as long as your walls on the pond are high enough. Mine are about eight inches. The walls are made of roofing rubber 060. As far as the pump fish will get stuck to it so you must build a screen around the pump. I used an aluminum paint grids. It works perfect. I used a submersible pool pump and I can adjust the flow of water. Hideing the pump is easy as you can see by my pics mine is under a ramp for my turtle. The hoses run behind the rocks. I've had my pump for 6 months with no problems. I hope this info helps.

[Big_Boy_4005]

John, I'm not so sure that we have Dave ready to change his original plan.

Dave likes Santa Fe, and was planning on modeling a thunderstorm in a dry climate. My understanding is that the storm will start, the pump will kick on, the water will run down the gully, and when the storm stops the pump will too, leaving everything high and dry. I'm not sure where the fish would fit into that plan.[swg]

[jkerklo]

Ok gang, it took awhile, but it looks like we have Dave hooked, so to speak, on live fish for his water feature. Now we have to help him do it right.

Tom, with your pet store experience, what kind of fish. Minnows from a pond? What to feed them. How about plants? Snails to keep it clean? How much light? Will he need some pond scum?

I would also suggest turtles and crawfish, but they might crawl all over the layout and get hit by trains. Messy. Would need a really good track cleaning car.

Lots of opportunities for action.

Dave already suggested a crane with a hook. How can a worm be modelled? It should wriggle.

Fishermen of course. If they occasionally raise and lower their lines, maybe the fish will bite and get drawn out of the water. No hook, just a good worm.

Must have one of those hobo campfires, but with a large fish (fake) on a turning spit.

Fish just swimming around will get boring after awhile. Will a small electric current through the water make them jump?

Let's give Dave plenty of good ideas.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[FJ and G]

John,

How bout a TMCC-crane with a fish hook and worm attached to lure them back into the aquarium car? To unload the car, you could shoot an ICBM from Lionel's missile car at the Aquarium car and it would explode, shooting the fish back into the river.

If the fish missed the river, you could place a cat on the river bank to scoop up the fish.

[jkerklo]

Dave,

I think you can do Frank, and Elliot, one better. Build the aquarium car on a log dump chassis, then, when the fish have had a long enough ride, SPLASH, they go back into your pond.

With your imagination, you can probably come up with a way to load fish INTO the aquarium car. A motorized net, a water ramp, big funnel ... sounds interesting.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

OK Dave, now it's all right to laugh. I made this when I was about 15. Not too many people have seen it until now. My 11 year old son kind of thinks it's cool.[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][sigh][swg]

[FJ and G]

"Don't laugh, I once tried doing that with plexiglass, in HO no less."

Elliot,

No wonder they threw you out of HO. Very unprototypical! :-)

[Anonymous]

Also alot of fish pumps and power heads , can control the flow of your water they have adjustments

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

"Think of it. You could have a REAL aquarium car, since you already have the fish. You would be the only one in all of train modelling!"

Don't laugh, I once tried doing that with plexiglass, in HO no less. I think I still have that, and I'll post a picture here when I find it. Sorry you didn't see the diagram with the original post, it took me about 10 minutes to draw and upload. I just used MS paint.[;)]

[jkerklo]

I knew there were real aquarium cars, but didn't even imagine it had been modelled for real before. Thanks for the link. I thought I had a brillliant idea. Oh well ..

Back to the fish

When they get too big, you can have a fish fry, and invite train buddies. Bet Frank never did that!

If you aren't into eating pets, then put them back in the stream ... Born Free!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

The idea of a under water seen was agood idea . I still have my 55gal that could be my next winter project

[FJ and G]

Frank Hale built it with glass and brass. He also designed a Lionel disappearing loop in his layout and other nifty things. He's an elderly gent who lives atop a mountain not far from my home near Manassas, VA. The all-day rides at club meets appear not to bother the fi***oo much. They get lots of attention, for sure. Of course, in O scale, they would represent giant carp. Incidentally, there really were aquarium cars.

[Anonymous]

That was great , I never new something like that excisted

[FJ and G]

"Think of it. You could have a REAL aquarium car, since you already have the fish. You would be the only one in all of train modelling!"
----------------------------------
John,

Not quite (see below link). The fish are real. A pump car behind the aquarium car shoots air into the aq car.

http://www.trainweb.org/NationalCapitalTrackers/NCTPhotosgum.htm

[jkerklo]

Experience, yes, although not with water on a layout, necessarily. Mostly, I think, you are seeing the imaginative minds that play with trains.

The switch I suggested was electrical: turn the pump on and off to keep the reservoir filled. That way, you don't have to get the flow rate of the pump exactly matched to the flow of the stream. As long as the pump capacity is greater than the stream flow, then it will work. It will also work if you change the flow rate, to make the stream more interesting.

Bye-the-way, how did you come up with an estimate of needed flow? I can't think of an easy way to do it.

But back to the fish.

You are into scale. Think of it. You could have a REAL aquarium car, since you already have the fish. You would be the only one in all of train modelling!

Or, an underwater view through the side of the pond. With underwater lights!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[FJ and G]

Big Boy,

Your graphic just came thru & that is exactly what I had in mind.

John K,

You got me thinking again. If I should decide to go with the fish route, a fine mesh at the end might keep all but the fry out of the pump. Or maybe something finer like stocking or cheesecloth?

A sidebar to this, I've never had any success at all in raising tropical fish; you know acidity, temperature and stuff like that. They are too finicky, except for goldfish. Anyway, once they died out, I went to a local stream and netted very tiny minnow. Some of these are even colorful and boy oh boy are they hardy. They even tolerate straight tap water and wild temp flucs. If you select the wrong "minnow" however, it can get pretty big. I think I had one "minnow" grow into a sunfish and another one grow into a chub. Course you could always eat it, but it's hard to eat a pet.

dav

[Anonymous]

Try www.hagen.com you might find some help there . I'ts so much better with runing water.Ihave a three stage water fall into a pond see my web

[FJ and G]

I called Petco and their water pumps will not meet the height/flow requirements.

I really like Roger's idea about the diversion return line. I can use a cheap shut-off valve, similar to the one that cuts water off to the toilet, and connect is via CPVC tubing. I'm unsure as to why I'd need a second valve, but it would be easy enough to splice one in if I do.

Another great suggestion, and I didn't even think anyone would reply to the original question. Lot of expertise out there on this forum!

[Big_Boy_4005]

4 Kitties, I had that thought in the back of my mind about the solid state dimmers when the others suggested that the dimming concept might be a problem. I have some very large and expensive Lutron dimmers, that claim to be able to dim fluorecent lights, though I have never tried using them that way. Of course this could be an expensive experiment, and it is Dave's nickel.[;)]

Roger, If I understand it correctly, your's is a very clever solution. Taking the normal high volume pump that Dave was orriginally considering, and diverting a portion of the flow back to the reservoir. By adjusting the amount of volume bypassed, the output flow can be regulated. This method would be totally adjustable without damaging the pump motor, and may be the ultimate solution.[:D]

Maybe something like this.

[jkerklo]

Hey, look at the google ads! There are web sites for pump companies.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[jkerklo]

Actually, with a reservoir, you can feed the water into different places. Some at the top, of course, but a few places downstream could have little streams adding to the flow.

But back to the fish.

Make sure the pump you get won't hurt the minnows, should one accidently get sucked down the pipe.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Roger Bielen]

Dave, the simple way to regulate the output from a pump is to have a bypass line, with valve, from the discharge back to the suction. A second valve should be placed in the discharge line for fine adusting. The suggestions to hit the pet shops is probably the best, also if there is a Grainger's near you check out their catalogue, they have a large selection of pumps from fractional flow to 100's of gpm.

[spankybird]

Dave, double check on the pond pumps. (I used to own a pet shop). I believe it would be your best bet.

tom

[FJ and G]

I chkd on some aquarium pumps and they may not have the lift I need.

4 kitties,

I'm going to submerse the pump in a 5 gallon drywall mud container (if it fits). Sorry to hear your experience. Reliability, obviously, is important. Perhaps turning it on and off again and again might wear it out as the tank fills/empties?

[4kitties]

The decorative pond pumps made by Beckett, Little Giant, and others are available in very small sizes with a flow that can be adjusted down quite low. These pumps are available at Lowe's and Home Depot for a lot less than $65. I don't know what kind of a head they can operate against. The "gotcha" with a lot of these pumps, and perhaps the Water Ace pump as well, is that they must operate submerged in order to cool the motor. I don't know anything about your layout; if configuring your pump that way would be a problem, you will need a different solution.

Personal note: I had a very bad experience with the Water Ace pumps. I bought a 1/3 HP model for my basement sump. The impeller came off the first night and forced me to rush back to Lowe's at 8:45pm or deal with a flooded basement. The second one lasted a few weeks before it did the same thing. This is not the kind of reliability I can live with in such a critical application! Hopefully the particular model you're investigating would be more reliable. They look well-built enough.

Big_Boy_4005, some induction motors will run OK on a dimmer (aka solid-state speed control) especially if it's made for the purpose, like the variable-speed controls that are available for bath and kitchen exhaust fans. Other induction motors may refuse to run at any speed other than zero or full, or may overheat. In my personal experience, it's a trial-and-error thing.

[Big_Boy_4005]

John, there are actually two kinds of pumps for fi***anks. The kind that use air to run an under gravel filter, and for larger tanks a purification filter which does pump water.

Tom's idea of the pond circulating pump may be the best so far. This may even be able to do the height you need. Back to Lowe's or Home Depot, but look in the gardening section, not the plumbing.

[jkerklo]

The fi***ank filter pumps I am familiar with don't pump water, but air. The air moving through the plastic part in the tank carries water up to the filter. I don't think it would work for eight feet.

I have seen pumps used for salt fi***anks, but they were expensive.

I would suggest evaporative cooler pumps, but in your neck of the woods, you probably never heard of them. They sit in the bottom of the cooler in a reservoir of water and pump up to the cooler pads. I don't know about the eight feet, but they might work. More than one could be used. They are cheap, like $15.

But back to the fish.

A dump car on the train could be used to feed the fish. As they grow and get too large ... dinner!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[FJ and G]

Chris,

Thxx for suggestions.

John's reservoir idea wins! I just got off the phone with an Oxide water pump expert. If you purchase a 2gpm pump and try to pump the water up to the top of the layout, you actually will get just a trickle and it will place strain on the pump over time. GPMs are rated for horizontal flow.

He liked John's idea of the reservoir at the top. He said the WaterAce at Lowe's for $65 is a good deal. Well, I'll be making a trip over there to pick one up and will let you know what happens.

I may get 2 usages out of that pump as well, because in the future, I'd like to build a pond outside with waterfalls and a G-scale train going around it.

thx all

dave

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dang Tom, you snuck that in while I was still typing.[;)]