Water pump question

[FJ and G]

Lowe's is having a sale on waterpumps (1/6 HP WaterAce). Price is $65. I called WaterAce to ask about the characteristics of it. Quiet. Yes. Pumps 10 gpm and can raise the water 10 feet. Pretty good.

Regulator?

No.

That presents a problem. 10 gpm is at least twice the action I need. I want water flowing down my desert stream, not a deluge in my basement? The lady I spoke with said she knows of no way to regulate it and has never heard of a water pump with a regulator on it (isn't it fun talking to "knowledgeable" people?).

I'm gonna surf the web today to try & find what I need but I was wondering if there can't be some way to regulate the flow coming out of the pump. That $65 is a nice price.

dav

[jkerklo]

Won't just a valve on the output end restrict the flow and allow you to adjust it to only what you want?

Or, get a pump (no motor) and hook it up to a motor with a pulley arrangement. By changing pulleys, you can adjust the flow.

Another way. Have a small reservoir at the head (hidden), adjust gravity flow from the reservoir to the stream bed. The pump fills the reservoir and is controlled (on/off) by a fill switch. Maybe the layout needs a lake; use it for the reservoir.

10 GPM seems like a lot. Maybe a smaller one.

Make a large reservoir at the top. Normally, there is just a trickle flow, but every now and then there is a flash flood, just like in a real western stream bed.

Actually, having a changing flow rate might be a good idea; adds a little more interest to the stream.

It might also be useful to plumb some valves and a drain connection. Then the pump could be used to drain the whole thing. The water is going to get really foul after a while.
A little bleach will help, but stink.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[lionelsoni]

I suspect that this is a centrifugal pump. I wouldn't be surprised if you can reduce the flow simply by putting a restriction, like a partially closed valve, in the pipe. I have never tried such a thing with a water pump; but I know that centrifugal air blowers are not at all harmed by doing that. In fact, the motor is unloaded. You can see an illustration of this with an ordinary vacuum cleaner: If you block the airflow with your hand, the motor speeds up noticeably. If you can get a demonstration of the pump, you can do the same test with it. Or just ask WaterAce.

[Big_Boy_4005]

OK Dave, you got me on this one, I have no experience here. So here is my totally off the wall idea, how about a dimmer switch??? I'm just not sure if it would harm the pump motor, but I don't see why it would.

[FJ and G]

I'm still searching the web; lots of choices but none made specifically for my purpose. I even found a "free energy pump" for 3rd world countries. I believe it operates on a solar panel and pumps ground water up for irrigation. I also found a yin-yang pump, with the cool yin-yang symbol on it (like the Northern Pacific logo). They were sold out.

Problem w/pump is need to raise the water up about 8 feet but not produce a lot of volume; 2 seemingly contradictory things.

If I don't find the pump I need, I'll explore the valve options and try to speak to someone more knowledgeable than the person I spoke with. I will, once I get the pump, be sure to let you all know the results.

BTW, the dimmer switch is an interesting idea. Or, perhaps, some well-placed resistors.

Thanks

dav

[jkerklo]

The pump probably uses an induction motor, which doesn't respond to a dimmer switch kind of control.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

The NP logo is called a MONAD.

OK so the dimmer idea is out. How about one of those hand crank fuel transfer pumps, and a pulley and motor arrangement like John suggested.

[FJ and G]

Elliot,

Sorry, but I was laughing when you mentioned hand crank. I conjured up this image of farmers drawing water with an Archimedes screw device.

John has some very interesting ideas worthy of experimentation!

dav

[FJ and G]

BTW, John's reservoir idea is great! I'm going to be a little less than serious for just a moment. Directly above the layout is the bathtub. I visualize a Rube Goldberg-type system of piping from the tub to the layout. After taking a bath, the water flows down the pipes and into the layout and then exits the layout thru pipes in the house, going out to the tomato patch. From there, it gets filtered thru the soil and a solar-powered groundpump than rehoists it up to the tub again for fresh bathwater.

[jkerklo]

If you are going to go to all the trouble of having water, why not some fi***oo. Some minnows, to scale, would be a nice catch.

With some training, they could be made to jump over obstacles going upstream, just like salmon.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

Why not just put a drain in the floor under the layout, then put a valve on a fresh water source, and forget recirculation. [swg] If you wanted to you could just fill the tub, and tap into the drain. Just watch out for the building inspector, he WILL get you on this one.[:P][:O]

[Chris F]

David,

It sounds like a sump pump (single-stage centrifugal) to me. 10 gpm is way too big for your application; typical flow out of a faucet is 2 gpm or less.

Throttling the flow with a valve on the outlet is possible, but the water that does not go to your stream will be recirculated internally in the pump. The energy used to recirculate the water will cause it to heat up, potentially to the point where a pump component will fail. If you go this route, don't run the pump too long!

John's idea of pumping to a reservoir and shutting off the pump with a float switch is excellent. I'd add a second float switch and overflow plumbing as backups. Maybe a water alarm, too!

[spankybird]

Hi all, Try checking a pet store for a pond filter pump. They make several difffernet sizes. As I recall, it less than $65.00

tom

[Big_Boy_4005]

Chris, I don't think in this application overflow is an issue, as it is a closed system. And just as I was typing that, I had a new idea. FI***ANK CIRCULATION FILTER AND PUMP. Quiet, inexpensive, good volume, and self filtering. Maybe we have been looking in the wrong direction.[:P] One possible problem here lift height. [:(]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dang Tom, you snuck that in while I was still typing.[;)]

[FJ and G]

Chris,

Thxx for suggestions.

John's reservoir idea wins! I just got off the phone with an Oxide water pump expert. If you purchase a 2gpm pump and try to pump the water up to the top of the layout, you actually will get just a trickle and it will place strain on the pump over time. GPMs are rated for horizontal flow.

He liked John's idea of the reservoir at the top. He said the WaterAce at Lowe's for $65 is a good deal. Well, I'll be making a trip over there to pick one up and will let you know what happens.

I may get 2 usages out of that pump as well, because in the future, I'd like to build a pond outside with waterfalls and a G-scale train going around it.

thx all

dave

[jkerklo]

The fi***ank filter pumps I am familiar with don't pump water, but air. The air moving through the plastic part in the tank carries water up to the filter. I don't think it would work for eight feet.

I have seen pumps used for salt fi***anks, but they were expensive.

I would suggest evaporative cooler pumps, but in your neck of the woods, you probably never heard of them. They sit in the bottom of the cooler in a reservoir of water and pump up to the cooler pads. I don't know about the eight feet, but they might work. More than one could be used. They are cheap, like $15.

But back to the fish.

A dump car on the train could be used to feed the fish. As they grow and get too large ... dinner!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

John, there are actually two kinds of pumps for fi***anks. The kind that use air to run an under gravel filter, and for larger tanks a purification filter which does pump water.

Tom's idea of the pond circulating pump may be the best so far. This may even be able to do the height you need. Back to Lowe's or Home Depot, but look in the gardening section, not the plumbing.

[4kitties]

The decorative pond pumps made by Beckett, Little Giant, and others are available in very small sizes with a flow that can be adjusted down quite low. These pumps are available at Lowe's and Home Depot for a lot less than $65. I don't know what kind of a head they can operate against. The "gotcha" with a lot of these pumps, and perhaps the Water Ace pump as well, is that they must operate submerged in order to cool the motor. I don't know anything about your layout; if configuring your pump that way would be a problem, you will need a different solution.

Personal note: I had a very bad experience with the Water Ace pumps. I bought a 1/3 HP model for my basement sump. The impeller came off the first night and forced me to rush back to Lowe's at 8:45pm or deal with a flooded basement. The second one lasted a few weeks before it did the same thing. This is not the kind of reliability I can live with in such a critical application! Hopefully the particular model you're investigating would be more reliable. They look well-built enough.

Big_Boy_4005, some induction motors will run OK on a dimmer (aka solid-state speed control) especially if it's made for the purpose, like the variable-speed controls that are available for bath and kitchen exhaust fans. Other induction motors may refuse to run at any speed other than zero or full, or may overheat. In my personal experience, it's a trial-and-error thing.

[FJ and G]

I chkd on some aquarium pumps and they may not have the lift I need.

4 kitties,

I'm going to submerse the pump in a 5 gallon drywall mud container (if it fits). Sorry to hear your experience. Reliability, obviously, is important. Perhaps turning it on and off again and again might wear it out as the tank fills/empties?

[spankybird]

Dave, double check on the pond pumps. (I used to own a pet shop). I believe it would be your best bet.

tom

[Roger Bielen]

Dave, the simple way to regulate the output from a pump is to have a bypass line, with valve, from the discharge back to the suction. A second valve should be placed in the discharge line for fine adusting. The suggestions to hit the pet shops is probably the best, also if there is a Grainger's near you check out their catalogue, they have a large selection of pumps from fractional flow to 100's of gpm.

[jkerklo]

Actually, with a reservoir, you can feed the water into different places. Some at the top, of course, but a few places downstream could have little streams adding to the flow.

But back to the fish.

Make sure the pump you get won't hurt the minnows, should one accidently get sucked down the pipe.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[jkerklo]

Hey, look at the google ads! There are web sites for pump companies.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

4 Kitties, I had that thought in the back of my mind about the solid state dimmers when the others suggested that the dimming concept might be a problem. I have some very large and expensive Lutron dimmers, that claim to be able to dim fluorecent lights, though I have never tried using them that way. Of course this could be an expensive experiment, and it is Dave's nickel.[;)]

Roger, If I understand it correctly, your's is a very clever solution. Taking the normal high volume pump that Dave was orriginally considering, and diverting a portion of the flow back to the reservoir. By adjusting the amount of volume bypassed, the output flow can be regulated. This method would be totally adjustable without damaging the pump motor, and may be the ultimate solution.[:D]

Maybe something like this.

[FJ and G]

I called Petco and their water pumps will not meet the height/flow requirements.

I really like Roger's idea about the diversion return line. I can use a cheap shut-off valve, similar to the one that cuts water off to the toilet, and connect is via CPVC tubing. I'm unsure as to why I'd need a second valve, but it would be easy enough to splice one in if I do.

Another great suggestion, and I didn't even think anyone would reply to the original question. Lot of expertise out there on this forum!

[Anonymous]

Try www.hagen.com you might find some help there . I'ts so much better with runing water.Ihave a three stage water fall into a pond see my web

[FJ and G]

Big Boy,

Your graphic just came thru & that is exactly what I had in mind.

John K,

You got me thinking again. If I should decide to go with the fish route, a fine mesh at the end might keep all but the fry out of the pump. Or maybe something finer like stocking or cheesecloth?

A sidebar to this, I've never had any success at all in raising tropical fish; you know acidity, temperature and stuff like that. They are too finicky, except for goldfish. Anyway, once they died out, I went to a local stream and netted very tiny minnow. Some of these are even colorful and boy oh boy are they hardy. They even tolerate straight tap water and wild temp flucs. If you select the wrong "minnow" however, it can get pretty big. I think I had one "minnow" grow into a sunfish and another one grow into a chub. Course you could always eat it, but it's hard to eat a pet.

dav

[jkerklo]

Experience, yes, although not with water on a layout, necessarily. Mostly, I think, you are seeing the imaginative minds that play with trains.

The switch I suggested was electrical: turn the pump on and off to keep the reservoir filled. That way, you don't have to get the flow rate of the pump exactly matched to the flow of the stream. As long as the pump capacity is greater than the stream flow, then it will work. It will also work if you change the flow rate, to make the stream more interesting.

Bye-the-way, how did you come up with an estimate of needed flow? I can't think of an easy way to do it.

But back to the fish.

You are into scale. Think of it. You could have a REAL aquarium car, since you already have the fish. You would be the only one in all of train modelling!

Or, an underwater view through the side of the pond. With underwater lights!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[FJ and G]

"Think of it. You could have a REAL aquarium car, since you already have the fish. You would be the only one in all of train modelling!"
----------------------------------
John,

Not quite (see below link). The fish are real. A pump car behind the aquarium car shoots air into the aq car.

http://www.trainweb.org/NationalCapitalTrackers/NCTPhotosgum.htm