Can Your Layout be Deemed a Fire Hazard?

[FJ and G]

I had never really thought about this until yesterday. Let me back up a second and explain. On Saturday, I put up most of my benchwork (I'll do a separate post explaining how it went in agonizing detail). Also on Saturday, I completed the last work on finishing the basement (started 1.5 years ago on the 1,500 sq ft basement).

On Sunday, I loaded the table with industrial blocks of styroam (2X12 foot solid chunks) 4 feet high X 25 feet worth.

Now that the basement is finished, it has to undergo final inspection from Prince William County inspectors.

On Sunday, my next door neighbor stopped by. He has accompanied inspectors in the past and has always given me useful tips, which enabled me to pass my first inspection for plumbing, HVAC, wiring, framing, etc.

Anyway, to make this long story short, he took one look at the styrofoam and said it likely would be declared a fire hazard. I was kinda shocked.

I had planned to glue down the styrofoam but stopped all work until the inspection, which I will schedule for early next month. In the meantime, I'll be taking the foam down and hiding it in my garage. Further progress on the layout will be after the inspection.

Has anyone had any similar experience to this, or can you comment?

Thx.

David Vergun

[cnw1995]

That's terrible. I saw stryofoam boards at our local Home Depot but I bought 1 inch thick 4 x 8 slabs of pink foam-board instead. It has a fire-resistent tab on it.

[Anonymous]

D. Vergun;

Hopefully I can help you a little. After retiring from the Fire Service with 36
years of experience, here's some pointers.
1.) "A clean house never burns." What that means is before the inspectors
visit make sure that ALL debris, dust, paper, etc. is cleaned up and GONE
from the inspection area.
2.) Save the documentation (if any) regarding the flammability of your layout
materials. (UL labels, stickers, ANSI or ASME specs, also National Bureau
of Standards flammability specs. (all available on the Internet))
3.) Install fire extinguishers in obvious accessible areas in your layout area.
4.) Install working smoke and CO detectors in your layout area.
5.) Make sure EXITS are marked and unblocked.
6.) (This is the tough one for train guys) Make sure that aisles are adequately
wide enough for easy evacuation. (The usual rule of thumb is 3 feet)
7.) Make sure the area is well lit.
8.) Pay particular attention to your electrical work! Make sure ALL electrical
work is done to the National Electrical Code! Cover ALL splices, joints, etc.
Be sure that your layout circuits are seperate from other circuits in the home
to prevent overloading and tripping of breakers.
9.) Store any/all combustible solvents, glues, paints, etc. in a seperate non-
flammable container (such as a metal locker). Get rid of old paint rags, glue
tubes, etc.
10.) Be sure that ALL electrical equipment for your layout is UL or ANSI approv-
ed. Save documentation or stickers, etc.
11.) Have an emergency 110V master shut-down switch for the layout that is
easily visible and accessible. Either a conventional double pole switch in an
approved electrical junction box or a commercial "power strip" breakered and
rated for the layout's entire load should be fine.

Lastly, I'm kind of curious...Why would the Fire Marshal have to inspect the
layout anyway? Is this a new home under construction? Is this a place rated
for public gatherings? I'm not familiar with the particulars of Prince William's
fire codes, although I began my professional career there back in the early
1970's. I know things change.

Another thing you maybe should have done, using 20/20 hindsight, is have
what is know as a "pre-constructiuon conference" with the Fire Marshal to
explain in detail the purpose and operation of your project and get advice on
how to meet the applicable standards of your area. These folks are not hard-
hearted and will do everything they can to legally assist the builder (you) in
making things safer.

A good idea would be to go to your local library and research the National
Electrical Code and the NFPA Life Safety Code to see what applies to your
circumstances.

This topic should be of top-shelf interest to ALL model railroaders. We want
all who visit us to be safe, we want our layouts and collections to be safe and
not lose all the sweat-equity, time and expense we have tied up in it, and we
don't want (God forbid) a problem with insurance adjusters or authorities in
the sad event that a fire does occur.

Keep us posted on the progress of this.

[cnw1995]

This made me curious enough to research some of our local building codes on this. It appears at least in our county (McHenry) that a private home train layout is considered to be a temporary structure that is separate from the home and does not add value to it in an assessment sort of way. The city people said they consider it like building a table or furniture. Making benchwork appears to be exempt from inspection - even if it is physically connected to the house studs. The only thing they warned about was about electrical - don't overload, etc.

[Anonymous]

David
I don't know what type of foam(chemical make-up) you have, but for many years now extruded,treated foam used in home construction, bedding, auto headliners,seats,etc, has, by law, included fire retardants mixed in at the time it was poured(manufactured). This includes the extruded polystyrene foam at Lowe's/Depot(noted in post above ).

I have been away from the process for many years now, however as I recall the main concern in the late '80s was not ignition or fire spread but the fumes given off by melting foam in a free-burning scenario..

[Anonymous]

'cnw1995' is expressing the same interest that I have in why all the official
inspections? If you are finishing off your basement, or building a train layout
that should not come under the heading of "new construction" such as an
addition to the house.

Even if you didn't/don't need an inspection, the pointers that I listed in the
previous post is good advice for anyone who is contemplating building a big
new layout. Safety First! Just like the REAL railroads!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey ChesBchRy, please don't confuse me with Dave, I was asleep when he posted this one.[swg]

But now that I'm awake, I have all kinds of things to add to this discussion.

First of all building codes are developed to protect us all from hazards, some of which we aren't aware even exist. When I built the layout ay the mall 12 years ago the inspections were very rigorous, because this was in a public place. Here's a list of the special things that had to be done. No flamable materials could be used in construction, which meant.

• Metal benchwork
• FRT lumber (Fire Retardant Treated)
• Sprinkler sysyem UNDER the layout
• Full disclosure and inspection of low voltage electrical system
• No falmable materials used as scenery
• And of course full compliance with all normal standard codes such as egress, lighting, signage, and ADA

This is the ultimate extreme, and basicly resulted in at least tripling the cost in benchwork construction.

Back to home layouts. Because this is your home, building inspectors only come when invited. You invite them when you do structural and electrical work on your home. If you don't take out a permit, WHICH YOU SHOULD WHEN REQUIRED, it can effect your ability to sell your home years later, and could be a lot more expensive to correct mistakes.

View the inspector as your friend, he is there to protect you, and keep you from doing things that are known to be dangerous. He will help keep you from making mistakes, and keep you, your family, and the future owners safe!!!

NOBODY WANTS A FIRE, and the best way to start one is with faulty wiring! MAKE SURE THAT YOUR WIRES ARE LARGE ENOUGH!!!! If you don't know the proper size wire to be safe, ASK!!! We have discussed this topic at length in the past, and I will find the link and post it here.

FOAM, as Leonard mentioned earlier, is a source of toxic gases when burned. I'm guessing here, but as long as it is not attached to the structure of your home, it should be legal from the inspector's point of view. Your sofa will give off equally noxious fumes when burned, so

DON'T HAVE A FIRE!

The bottom line here is DON'T FEAR THE INSPECTOR, he will not conedemn your home because of your layout, but if he sees it, he may make recommendations that you should consider following for your own safety.

Have fun, and BE SAFE!!!!

[FJ and G]

I'm still reading your replies, but I can add 2 more points:

1. The most critical thing that county inspectors look for is fire prevention. For instance, my studs have fire blocking.

2. Something I failed to mention is that the layout spans a window to the outside of the building in the hallway. That window, in and of itself is, IMO, not as important as the window in the bedroom, which by code, has to be there. However, the bedroom window is not spanded (not yet anyway) by the layout. After the inspection, it will be, but I egress will still be easy enough.

I'm still reading these replies but got busy at work. I'll keep reading. Thx.

[Big_Boy_4005]

The answer to the question of why the inspection on an existing home is, in some areas permits are required when the dollar value of an improvement exceedes a certain amount. Electrical permits are required when adding any breakers to a panel.

How do I know all this you ask??? Experience, I have built and wired my own home, done countless remodels and additions, and built the train display at the Mall of America. I have spent the last 15 years dealing with inspectors (off and on) and learning building and electrical codes.[swg]

[FJ and G]

Any time you finish your basement in Prince William County, VA, a permit is required by law.

Actually, I needed 4 separate permits: electrical; plumbing; framing; and HVAC. Total cost of all of these permits was nearly $400. There are 2 inspections. The first is for the framing, plumbing rough in, HVAC, and wiring, and the 2nd inspection is when everything is finished, tho I feel personally, that the 2nd inspection is more cosmetic and shouldn't really be required as the first inspection really catches any fire/safety violations.

Inspectors will tell you that the reason for inspections is protection of you and the occupants. Most inspectors are highly professional and take their jobs seriously. The fire codes they know by heart and grade you accordingly. However, as in any profession, there are dimwits; but as a whole, inspectors are courteous, thorough, and take their jobs seriously.

[brianel027]

For me, the answer is no (I hope). I've used large enough wire and all of it accessible, use circuit breakers, use low voltage lights, etc., and have more than enough power from multiple transformers as to not exceed their capacities. Had all used transformers checked and serviced. Cords replaced, etc. Heat sinks and resistors are appropriately mounted with air space. Auxiliary transformers have cooling fans. Styrofoam used is all treated and away from heat sources. I've mounted a smoke detector near the layout room also.

I went through a fire in 1989. In 5 short hours, my life's work - 15 years worth of paintings, photographs (everything that hadn't sold in an exhibit), negatives, songs, demo tapes, cameras, guitars... gone. Also all my family archives - 3 generations of family pictures, movies, all my childhood Lionel's (I won't tell you what was lost there!) was gone and gone forever.

Worse of all the fire was arson, set to another building but also took the building where I had my studio and ran an art gallery. Oh, no insurance either.

And privately, firemen admitted they responded late, under-equipped, and ill-prepared because they were in a very heated labor dispute with the city. I also found out from my lawyer I couldn't sue the city for this, even if they were negligent.

I mean anything is possible.... I'm not daring fate, BUT having been to hell once already, I really prefer not going there again if I can at all help it. Postcard selection there was poor too... could be why travel agents don't do much business booking trips to that location. [:D]

Alas, my sense of humor. It would suffice to say I've had sort of a painful, ill-fated life. My friends used to call me VanGogh junior. My humor keeps me going though it all, and my trains are one small piece of sanity in an otherwise insane world.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, the secret is, if you think that you are going to need to do something that the inspector won't approve, even if you don't see it as a big deal, WAIT. Bedroom windows are the KEY when it comes to egress.

No other windows are considered for egress, think about where most people die in home fires and when they happen. Often when people are sleeping, this is why smoke detectors are required in all sleeping areas in new construction, and why they are now requiring hard wire and tied together, ie NO BATTERIES.

I'm not telling you to violate the building codes, just keep in mind that once the inspector is gone, the home is your's. Also the inspector will generally confine his inspection to the area under permit, and not go poking around your entire home. Relax, be polite ask questions or even advice. Showing respect for goes a long way toward smooth and easy inspections.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Brian, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. I have been lucky never to have experienced a fire. It sounds that you are mostly recovered from that terrible experience.

Remember that laughter in the face of adversity is HYSTERIA.

I experienced it many years ago over a car. It was a RED car and I will never have another, because that thing was a TARGET. Three accidents in a span of less than six months, none my fault, each one worse than the previous. The third one totaled the car. In all three cases I was not injured, but immeadiately following the third and final, I couldn't stop laughing. That's hysteria!!

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy...Sorry for the mixup (brain cramp) :)

D. Vergun...You mentioned that your benchwork spans a window to
the outside of the building and you think this will not be a problem?
I DO know that you WILL be gigged on this one! ANY obstruction of
an egress is FORBIDDEN and will be seen/listed as a VIOLATION!
Even if you do it after-the-fact you WILL be held liable both by the
authorities and by the insurance company in the event that something
happens and that egress needs to be used.

The results can be fines, retro-repairs, and with-holding of insurance
payouts for losses. Not to mention direct responsibility for any loss of
life or injury. Worst-case scenario is the Fire Marshal/Inspector will
issue a 'denial-of-occupany' order until violations are corrected and
reinspected. Even if you are already occupying the structure.

The reasoning behind this is...not only will that window/door/opening
be used by you, but it possibly might have to be used by persons who
are visiting and unfamiliar with the structure. Also factor in adverse
conditions such as loss of lighting, smoke, heat, etc. and even those
who ARE familiar will become disoriented. The additional reason is
that even if the opening is not used immediately for egress the opening
WILL be used for ENTRY and RESCUE of possible persons. Factor in
the size of a fully dressed and equipped firefighter (approx twice the size
and bulk of an ordinary person in street-clothes) and the fact that we may
have to also be carrying another person through this opening and the
requirement makes sense. As a matter of fact window openings are
standardized by the building industry to certain minimun specs for egress
and ingress just for these reasons. Your inspectors can/will explain this
to you. Hopefully none of this will ever happen to you or your guests, but
if it does, then THAT is why the codes are written as they are

I don't mean to sound harsh. It's just that I have had to breach illegally
obstructed openings in my career and have seen and handled the results.
Namely removing what once was a live human being who could not get
out of an area involved in smoke, gasses and fire. All I want to stress in
this post is that we MUST be safe in what we do in our hobby.

Again, if time permits, I would advise having a "pre-inspection" conference
with the local Fire officials and see what they recommend. They can/will be
most helpful. After all, they, too, just have your safety at stake.

Take care, good luck on your inspection.

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy;

Post has been edited/corrected. Again sorry for the brain cramp.

Now for a point of order for you. ANY window facing the outside of a
building is considered an emergency egress/access point. This is why
under codes ALL rooms that have a wall that is common to the exterior
of a building should have at least ONE window opening in it. The number
of square inches or feet is calculated on the basis of the square footage
of the room, the usage of the room, and the occupancy (number of people
and amount of time) of the room. In the case of sleeping rooms, there
should be a minimum of TWO operating unobstructed windows for each
room. These codes are mostly the reason that homes are not constructed
with primary living quarters below grade (basement). If a basement is
turned into living quarters, and exit must be furnished DIRECTLY to the
outside consisting of AT LEAST one main door for the basement and AT
LEAST one non-obstructed operating window per room.

Oh yes...about the inspectors showing up "invited"? Maybe the first time,
but if you EVER have a fire or mishap (I hope you don't) they WILL show up
and NOT invited! It's part of the post-incident investigation and THOSE
people WILL find what was wrong! Again, the whole idea is NOT to have
an adverse incident.

We want to have fun with our trains and with our guests. Prevention NEVER
costs too much!

[Big_Boy_4005]

No problem ChesBchRy, I feel that Dave and I have become pretty close in the last week, but we aren't interchangable YET.[:P][:D]

Regarding the window, I think this a gray area, and asking first may save you trouble later. There should be a distinction made between permanent changes and furnishings. EVERYONE places some furniture in front of windows, the secret is to make sure that it doesn't prevent its full use in the event of a fire.

Important note here, SIZE DOES MATTER. In order to be considered a LEGAL egress the glass area has to be a certain size. Non operating windows are not considered as a window for egress purposes, even though they may serve as an entry point for firefighters. I have personally covered over a few basement VENT windows in my trainroom, but they are located more than 5 feet above the floor, and are way too small to be of any use as egress.

Different localities have different codes. BE SAFE, CHECK YOUR'S!!

[Anonymous]

Recently, my wife & I were working with an architect to design an addition to our home. When I looked at what he'd done with the train room, I found three windows in the room. One was centered on the exterior 10' long wall, and two were placed at the "ends" of the 20' long exterior wall. When I asked about those windows, he said they were egress windows, as required by the code.

Now, I had been hoping to have that long wall window free, but the code prevents that. And I'd like to have benchwork 2-3 feet wide in front of these windows. It looks like I'm going to have to design whatever's in front of the windows to accomodate the feet of the firefighters in the event of a fire, God forbid.

While I intend to attach my benchwork to the walls, I'm probably going to have outboard legs, at least in these two areas. I'm thinking of putting in cabinets on castors under the layout, to hide the space & use as much for storage as possible. Plus I'm probably gonna have a folding workbench of some kind to slide under there, too.

So the code has interfered with my plans, and probably for the better, as far as safety is concerned.

I just wish I could settle on a good track plan.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy;

Sounds like you are doing your homework! Great! Yes, you are correct about
"furnishings" (they are considered moveable and non-permanent), however,
Train tablework permanently fastened to the walls/structure most likely will be
interpreted by the inspectors as a structural alteration as they cannot be moved
easily and are permanent in nature.

Dang! :) I'm getting into a seminar here! It's OK...most folks don't realize...
Anyhoo... Even small non-opening windows as you described in your basement
can/will be used/breached/forcibly opened to ventilate smoke, heat and flame
from a basement fire. It's (a basement fire) on the top of a list of firefighters'
nightmares because of the confined-space nature and limited escape possibilites.

Again, I have posted elsewhere...different localities have different codes, so
you should get familiar with your area's building/electrical/fire codes.
BTW...many insurance companies offer a substantial discount to homeowners
who have and mount fire extinguishers and additional alarms, detectors, etc.
So not only are you making your environment safer, but you can save a little $$$
that can be used for buying TRAINS! :)

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChesBchRy

Big_Boy;

Post has been edited/corrected. Again sorry for the brain cramp.

Now for a point of order for you. ANY window facing the outside of a
building is considered an emergency egress/access point. This is why
under codes ALL rooms that have a wall that is common to the exterior
of a building should have at least ONE window opening in it. The number
of square inches or feet is calculated on the basis of the square footage
of the room, the usage of the room, and the occupancy (number of people
and amount of time) of the room. In the case of sleeping rooms, there
should be a minimum of TWO operating unobstructed windows for each
room. These codes are mostly the reason that homes are not constructed
with primary living quarters below grade (basement). If a basement is
turned into living quarters, and exit must be furnished DIRECTLY to the
outside consisting of AT LEAST one main door for the basement and AT
LEAST one non-obstructed operating window per room.

This is why it is important to check with your LOCAL building inspection office.

By the standards outlined above my home contains at least 3, and as many as 8 rooms that violate this rule. These rooms have NO WINDOWS. I designed this home and had to submit a set of plans for approval to the local building inspector, before he would issue a permit so that I could begin construction.

Anything is possible, as long as it is approved in advance. Every situation is different and there are variences that can be requested.

I am not trying to argue, just state that we all live in different places with different rules, and Dave needs to check his.[:)]

[Anonymous]

You got it Big_Boy! :D

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Ches, all of the points that you have made are valid and well taken.

Here's a twist, I understand that Dave is planning to support the section of the layout in front of the window on shelf brackets. Furniture? Srtucture? This makes his situation about as clear as MUD. [:-,][(-D][%-)][banghead][:P][:D] The inspector may have to flip a coin. All the more reason for Dave to ask first. It will give the guys down at the local inspection office something to scratch their heads over in the morning before starting their rounds.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy;

Not to sound smart-alecky but what Dave is considering might fall into
the catagory of "none of the above". The inspector MAY consider it an
obstruction. Actually the proper solution is one that was arrived at by
Tony in a post here. His is an example of a proper compromise be-
tween regulations and train-room requirements.

Again, this is why I said it would be a good idea for Dave to have a
pre-con with the inspectors. I know that "back in the day" when I was
doing inspections we had quite a few situations like this and they
were fairly easy to resolve to the satisfaction of all parties. If Dave
takes the inspector's advice and guidance I believe he can "have
his cake and eat it too". Whereas if he tries to "finesse" it, he will
possible run into problems and be forced to assume needless liability.

Thanks for your support.

[Anonymous]

Suggestion David--
Get the construction (and HVAC,Electrical,Plumbing) complete, call for inspection and --then build the layout after approval. (I think someone has probably already suggested this procedure).

[Anonymous]

*

[Anonymous]

BTW, Dave---How do you think the inspector will like your tunnels through the basement wall?(inside joke) Maybe he will not let you put a table in front of them. Also I found my TRACKS to be a fire hazzard. Once when operating a train for a dear friend and her little son the third rail right in front of me burst into flame! It flared up like striking a match. I shut it down and blew out the little flame. I figure that the cause was oily gunk that seeped into the joint around the track pin. The connection must have gotten so bad that an arc formed inside the rail. I stopped cleaning my rails with solvents. I also connect each section with a soldered jumper to facilitate the current. Odd-d

[FJ and G]

Odd-d,

Wow, the flame incident is interesting. A toy train club near me had such an incident happen during a meet when a section of track caught on fire from, I think, spilt smoke fluid? or track cleaner? forgot which.

Here's a handy checklist to determine if your layout is a fire hazard.

1. Boxes stored under your layout
2. Restricted access of your layout crossing a window or including duck unders
3. Storage of flammable (or is it inflammable????) liquid such as track cleaners
4. A profusion of wires.

I'm sure no toy train modeler has any of that!

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

Speaking of a profusion of wires....

Did you see Don Grabski's post on the OGR forum showing the wiring job he did on the latest layout he's built? It was part of a post on wiring cabinets. Here's a link: http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=63160042&f=57660482&m=778109553&p=1

I think that if everyone could do a job like that with their wiring, they'd reduce the chance of the wiring causing a fire.

Tony

[FJ and G]

Tony,

Very impressive. Don is a guru of wiring.

The most impressive, however, is the Lionel setup at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, which now, unfortunately, is HO. They had a huge relay machine that made the trains start and stop and go around the track automatically.

I've seen, otoh, horror stories, of modelers who had an electrical problem but couldn't track it because of the maze of wiring.

Dave V

[cnw1995]

I found that relay machine at the MSI more impressive than the layout itself - especially in its last days. One face of the machine was glassed-in so you could watch the different relays 'thump' and see what happened on the layout. BTW, the new MSI layout - while in HO - is pretty cool. See http://www.msichicago.org/exhibit/great_train_story/index.html

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tony and Dave, Don's may be neat, but there isn't that much there. Here's a very small sample of mine. This still has to be tie wrapped, but I will wait until everything is in place to do that. Notice the number 27 written on the wood, this is one of 39 such terminal blocks, and there will be others beyond that. The upper wires are #12 for track power, the lower bundles are #16 for detection. I learned this overkill method from an electrical engineer, and my days at the mall.