Can Your Layout be Deemed a Fire Hazard?

[jkerklo]

Someone should have introduced Seymore to toy trains. Nothing weird about train people.

Think what could have happened: super-layout!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

Curious factoid regarding tunneling, since Dave brought it up:

Seymore Cray was the somewhat eccentric genius behind the Cray supercomputers until his death some years ago. For those of you who don't know a Cray supercomptuer from a Sony Playstation, the Crays were the fastest computers of their time. They were so fast, that the speed of light was a limiting factor in their design.

Seymore Cray had an interesting and different way to relax: He dug a tunnel in his backyard. When he was working on a design & got stymied, Seymore would go into his backyard and extend the tunnel another few feet. The top & sides of the tunnel were lined with wood boards to support the earth above the tunnel. He even had periscopes popping above the ground so he could check out what was happening above ground.

And the entire tunnel was dug by hand.

Some people are just weird.

Tony

[FJ and G]

Sorry for not answering, Ches. These are building inspectors, not fire inspectors; however, the codes they follow have all been approved for fire safety, e.g. the electrical codes. They also are looking for other safety things such as loading (alterations to load-bearing studs that could be dangerous).

I still have a dream of someday digging a 1/2 mile tunnel under the basement thru the neighborhood, like Hogan's Heroes did, and placing a long shelf layout on it. but it's just a dream.

[Anonymous]

Rooms in basements in Columbus Ohio don't require Egress if the room is not labled a bedroom on the blueprints. Even a first or second floor room is exempt from having to have egress as long as it is not a bedroom.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Ches, I would think that it was the building inspector in Dave's case. My experience is that cities don't do special fire inspections for single family residential. That is reserved for multi family, and other commercial and public venues. My apartment buildings had a routine fire inspection every three years, regardless of any permits. The mall layout didn't last long enough for a follow up. As always rules are different from place to place.

The regular building inspector looks for fire related issues in a plan review when a permit is pulled, mostly when the structure is being modified. In the case of a basement finishing, one of the city's main goals AFTER SAFETY, is the VALUE of the improvement (for TAX purposes), since they see this as an increase in a home's square footage.

Dave is actually quite lucky here that he has an inspector that understands train layouts. It took a fair amount of explaining and hand holding to work out the details of the mall layout with the city's inspectors, as you can tell from my list back in my first post on this topic. All of that was figured out before the architect ever picked up his pencil.

[Anonymous]

Nope...not surprised. I told you to call in advance and get advice and
you did! I also said that codes differ according to localities and over
time. You did not say whether the inspector that you contacted was a
Fire Inspector or not. However, most jurisdictions have a great deal
of cooperation between their code enforcement officers. The biggest
thing in your favor is that the inspector knows about train layouts and
how the electrical wiring and bench construction is done. This goes
a long way when interpretations for codes are needed.

Glad to see that you have everything under control. Sometimes the
'system' really does work!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave you crack me up!!! What a fitting end to this whole story!!!! Won't Ches be surprised when he sees this!![(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][swg]

It was still a fun and worthwhile discussion though[;)]

[Anonymous]

Dave:

Excellent! Not only is the inspector into trains, but he knows O guage! You're a lucky guy!

Tony

[FJ and G]

Pease,

I use same technique.

All,

Great NEWS!!@!!!

I just got off the phone with Mr. Walls, one of the county inspectors. I told him about the train layout and he asked me if I'm using Atlas or Gargraves. What a shocker!

We then chatted about model trains for about 20 minutes. He grew up near the W&ODRR when it had steam and had some stories to tell as well.

To make this long story short, he told me to give him a call before setting up a date for the inspection and then he would try to personally inspect or would explain the layout to whomever will be doing the inspection.

Thus, he gave me the go-ahead with construction plans.

So, you will now be treated to my annoying news on a regular basis of my construction ordeals and triumphs.

[Anonymous]

I keep all of my wires bundled with plastic ties and fastened to the underneath of my table with Romex wire staples like holds the house wires to studs and joists. This leaves room for movement and for me to add more wires if I need to. Try to avoid sharp bends and folds in your wires because that will cause the insulation to crack in time and cause short circuits and even fires even with low voltage stuff.

[Big_Boy_4005]

[#oops]sorry Tony, I missed the ones below. I will still end up with more wires, but Don has done a neat job. The other day I went to the dentist, and one of the spaces in his building was being remodeled. There was a dumpster out in the parking lot filled with debris from the demolition, including some of that flex tubing that Don used. It was near the top so I didn't really have to DIVE.[(-D][swg]

Waste not want not!

Ches, Those were picked up at a local surplus store, and were used on the mall layout. I reuse almost everything. Thats why I like drywall screws so much, some of my lumber is over 25 years old and going on it's 4th or 5th use.[;)]

[Anonymous]

One of the best ways to keep track of your wiring was mentioned
by another poster here, and I use it as well. Mainly, establish a
wiring list with a color code for different feeds and circuits, then
stick to it! You may never have a problem with your wiring, but if
you do, Murphy's Law will kick in and it will be at a time when you
can't remember where that lead wire goes to, or you don't have a
diagram of the circuit. Post a copy of the wiring list and diagram
under the train table for quick reference. Also stick to your color
code. Even if the diagrams get misplaced, you can still easily
locate where the lead goes by following the color. When making
extensions, taps, slices, etc. always use the same color wire as
the one you are branching off of. I know this is elementary in our
hobby, but we all from time to time slip up.

Big_Boy...I like your wire looms in the picture. Better than half-moon
wire clamps. Where can one get these? I'm rebuilding a museum
layout electrical system and this would be just the ticket for their
requirements!

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

If you look at the post, there's two sets of pictures, one by cerbyg, which doesn't look like much, and then, right after that post, one by Don. It's the third post in the thread. There are about 7 pictures in there of a very extensive DCS installation.

Your picture's a little small, its hard to make out the details. Maybe you can email me a larger image?

I'm getting old <sigh>

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tony and Dave, Don's may be neat, but there isn't that much there. Here's a very small sample of mine. This still has to be tie wrapped, but I will wait until everything is in place to do that. Notice the number 27 written on the wood, this is one of 39 such terminal blocks, and there will be others beyond that. The upper wires are #12 for track power, the lower bundles are #16 for detection. I learned this overkill method from an electrical engineer, and my days at the mall.

[cnw1995]

I found that relay machine at the MSI more impressive than the layout itself - especially in its last days. One face of the machine was glassed-in so you could watch the different relays 'thump' and see what happened on the layout. BTW, the new MSI layout - while in HO - is pretty cool. See http://www.msichicago.org/exhibit/great_train_story/index.html

[FJ and G]

Tony,

Very impressive. Don is a guru of wiring.

The most impressive, however, is the Lionel setup at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, which now, unfortunately, is HO. They had a huge relay machine that made the trains start and stop and go around the track automatically.

I've seen, otoh, horror stories, of modelers who had an electrical problem but couldn't track it because of the maze of wiring.

Dave V

[Anonymous]

Speaking of a profusion of wires....

Did you see Don Grabski's post on the OGR forum showing the wiring job he did on the latest layout he's built? It was part of a post on wiring cabinets. Here's a link: http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=63160042&f=57660482&m=778109553&p=1

I think that if everyone could do a job like that with their wiring, they'd reduce the chance of the wiring causing a fire.

Tony

[FJ and G]

Odd-d,

Wow, the flame incident is interesting. A toy train club near me had such an incident happen during a meet when a section of track caught on fire from, I think, spilt smoke fluid? or track cleaner? forgot which.

Here's a handy checklist to determine if your layout is a fire hazard.

1. Boxes stored under your layout
2. Restricted access of your layout crossing a window or including duck unders
3. Storage of flammable (or is it inflammable????) liquid such as track cleaners
4. A profusion of wires.

I'm sure no toy train modeler has any of that!

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

BTW, Dave---How do you think the inspector will like your tunnels through the basement wall?(inside joke) Maybe he will not let you put a table in front of them. Also I found my TRACKS to be a fire hazzard. Once when operating a train for a dear friend and her little son the third rail right in front of me burst into flame! It flared up like striking a match. I shut it down and blew out the little flame. I figure that the cause was oily gunk that seeped into the joint around the track pin. The connection must have gotten so bad that an arc formed inside the rail. I stopped cleaning my rails with solvents. I also connect each section with a soldered jumper to facilitate the current. Odd-d

[Anonymous]

*

[Anonymous]

Suggestion David--
Get the construction (and HVAC,Electrical,Plumbing) complete, call for inspection and --then build the layout after approval. (I think someone has probably already suggested this procedure).

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy;

Not to sound smart-alecky but what Dave is considering might fall into
the catagory of "none of the above". The inspector MAY consider it an
obstruction. Actually the proper solution is one that was arrived at by
Tony in a post here. His is an example of a proper compromise be-
tween regulations and train-room requirements.

Again, this is why I said it would be a good idea for Dave to have a
pre-con with the inspectors. I know that "back in the day" when I was
doing inspections we had quite a few situations like this and they
were fairly easy to resolve to the satisfaction of all parties. If Dave
takes the inspector's advice and guidance I believe he can "have
his cake and eat it too". Whereas if he tries to "finesse" it, he will
possible run into problems and be forced to assume needless liability.

Thanks for your support.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Ches, all of the points that you have made are valid and well taken.

Here's a twist, I understand that Dave is planning to support the section of the layout in front of the window on shelf brackets. Furniture? Srtucture? This makes his situation about as clear as MUD. [:-,][(-D][%-)][banghead][:P][:D] The inspector may have to flip a coin. All the more reason for Dave to ask first. It will give the guys down at the local inspection office something to scratch their heads over in the morning before starting their rounds.[swg]

[Anonymous]

You got it Big_Boy! :D

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChesBchRy

Big_Boy;

Post has been edited/corrected. Again sorry for the brain cramp.

Now for a point of order for you. ANY window facing the outside of a
building is considered an emergency egress/access point. This is why
under codes ALL rooms that have a wall that is common to the exterior
of a building should have at least ONE window opening in it. The number
of square inches or feet is calculated on the basis of the square footage
of the room, the usage of the room, and the occupancy (number of people
and amount of time) of the room. In the case of sleeping rooms, there
should be a minimum of TWO operating unobstructed windows for each
room. These codes are mostly the reason that homes are not constructed
with primary living quarters below grade (basement). If a basement is
turned into living quarters, and exit must be furnished DIRECTLY to the
outside consisting of AT LEAST one main door for the basement and AT
LEAST one non-obstructed operating window per room.

This is why it is important to check with your LOCAL building inspection office.

By the standards outlined above my home contains at least 3, and as many as 8 rooms that violate this rule. These rooms have NO WINDOWS. I designed this home and had to submit a set of plans for approval to the local building inspector, before he would issue a permit so that I could begin construction.

Anything is possible, as long as it is approved in advance. Every situation is different and there are variences that can be requested.

I am not trying to argue, just state that we all live in different places with different rules, and Dave needs to check his.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy;

Sounds like you are doing your homework! Great! Yes, you are correct about
"furnishings" (they are considered moveable and non-permanent), however,
Train tablework permanently fastened to the walls/structure most likely will be
interpreted by the inspectors as a structural alteration as they cannot be moved
easily and are permanent in nature.

Dang! :) I'm getting into a seminar here! It's OK...most folks don't realize...
Anyhoo... Even small non-opening windows as you described in your basement
can/will be used/breached/forcibly opened to ventilate smoke, heat and flame
from a basement fire. It's (a basement fire) on the top of a list of firefighters'
nightmares because of the confined-space nature and limited escape possibilites.

Again, I have posted elsewhere...different localities have different codes, so
you should get familiar with your area's building/electrical/fire codes.
BTW...many insurance companies offer a substantial discount to homeowners
who have and mount fire extinguishers and additional alarms, detectors, etc.
So not only are you making your environment safer, but you can save a little $$$
that can be used for buying TRAINS! :)

[Anonymous]

Recently, my wife & I were working with an architect to design an addition to our home. When I looked at what he'd done with the train room, I found three windows in the room. One was centered on the exterior 10' long wall, and two were placed at the "ends" of the 20' long exterior wall. When I asked about those windows, he said they were egress windows, as required by the code.

Now, I had been hoping to have that long wall window free, but the code prevents that. And I'd like to have benchwork 2-3 feet wide in front of these windows. It looks like I'm going to have to design whatever's in front of the windows to accomodate the feet of the firefighters in the event of a fire, God forbid.

While I intend to attach my benchwork to the walls, I'm probably going to have outboard legs, at least in these two areas. I'm thinking of putting in cabinets on castors under the layout, to hide the space & use as much for storage as possible. Plus I'm probably gonna have a folding workbench of some kind to slide under there, too.

So the code has interfered with my plans, and probably for the better, as far as safety is concerned.

I just wish I could settle on a good track plan.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

No problem ChesBchRy, I feel that Dave and I have become pretty close in the last week, but we aren't interchangable YET.[:P][:D]

Regarding the window, I think this a gray area, and asking first may save you trouble later. There should be a distinction made between permanent changes and furnishings. EVERYONE places some furniture in front of windows, the secret is to make sure that it doesn't prevent its full use in the event of a fire.

Important note here, SIZE DOES MATTER. In order to be considered a LEGAL egress the glass area has to be a certain size. Non operating windows are not considered as a window for egress purposes, even though they may serve as an entry point for firefighters. I have personally covered over a few basement VENT windows in my trainroom, but they are located more than 5 feet above the floor, and are way too small to be of any use as egress.

Different localities have different codes. BE SAFE, CHECK YOUR'S!!

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy;

Post has been edited/corrected. Again sorry for the brain cramp.

Now for a point of order for you. ANY window facing the outside of a
building is considered an emergency egress/access point. This is why
under codes ALL rooms that have a wall that is common to the exterior
of a building should have at least ONE window opening in it. The number
of square inches or feet is calculated on the basis of the square footage
of the room, the usage of the room, and the occupancy (number of people
and amount of time) of the room. In the case of sleeping rooms, there
should be a minimum of TWO operating unobstructed windows for each
room. These codes are mostly the reason that homes are not constructed
with primary living quarters below grade (basement). If a basement is
turned into living quarters, and exit must be furnished DIRECTLY to the
outside consisting of AT LEAST one main door for the basement and AT
LEAST one non-obstructed operating window per room.

Oh yes...about the inspectors showing up "invited"? Maybe the first time,
but if you EVER have a fire or mishap (I hope you don't) they WILL show up
and NOT invited! It's part of the post-incident investigation and THOSE
people WILL find what was wrong! Again, the whole idea is NOT to have
an adverse incident.

We want to have fun with our trains and with our guests. Prevention NEVER
costs too much!