...and the GG1
The 8850 Penn Central GG1 is a nice engine. I have one. But I would not consider to be early MPC. It came out in 1978. The first Modern Era GG1 was the Tuscan Pennsylvania #8753. It was announced in a special Flyer in 1976, along with a number of other items.What does "early MPC" mean anyway? When I think of "early MPC" I am thinking 1970-71, maybe 1972. I am certain others have different ideas :).
MPC/General Mills era is generally thought of as 1970-1986---when their catalogs were produced, right?
If spread out kind of evenly, that would make:
1970-1974 - Early
1975-1981 - Mid
1982-1986 - Late
Your mileage may vary!
The 1969 diesels: 645 UP switcher, 2024 C&O ALCO single A, and 2041 Rock Island ALCO AA were only offered one year.
The ALCOs are somewhat difficult to find with the correct chassis. The shells were readily available, and lots of folks used them to rescue ALCOs with broken / beat-up bodies. So they are often found mounted to older chassis.
The 2041 shells are also seen rather often without lettering. I think they are just unfinished product, rather than being factory errors.
Here's the first three of the Milwaukee passenger cars.
On the MPC side, it's tough to find the early diesels in individual boxes. The engines are: 8010 Santa Fe switcher, and 8020 Santa Fe "AA".
One characteristic of all "early" MPC diesels are their third rail pickups. The pickups were scout style hollow rollers, mounted directly on the motor truck chassis. This was done on the switchers, ALCOs, and Geeps. The rollers were (are) very sensitive to dirt, and locomotives had a tendency to loose power going over switches, causing them to trip into neutral. So Lionel redesigned the collectors to be similar to a 2036 style solid roller on an arm.
I gave the thread a slight redesignation to reflect the afore mentioned dates... When I get the time, I really need to post the Lionel cars I have from 1969.
On some of the early Geeps Lionel also added a rear pick-up assembly like the PW had.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
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tinplatacisI gave the thread a slight redesignation to reflect the afore mentioned dates... When I get the time, I really need to post the Lionel cars I have from 1969.
Why 1968? Didn't MPC first approach Lionel Corp. about making a deal in 1969?
I guess I thought we agreed to disagree about what constituted early and late.
If one were to apply the MPC logic to Postwar:
1946-1969 - 24 years, so
early 1946-1953
middle 1954 - 1961
late 1962-1969
I guess there are plenty of folks who would agree with this breakup. As I wrote earlier, to me early means the first 2-3 years, late means the last 2-3 years.
These are loose terms :).
What I find much more significant, and troubling (for communications), is that some folks are redefining "modern era" as starting in 1987, after MPC.
I used 1968, as the products that Lionel manufactured towards he end reflected more of the MPC standards than those I recognize as true Lionel. Combined with the fact that MPC used some leftover Lionel parts in intial sales, and the lack of interest in the lasts years, I see it as perfectly resasonable to have 1968 as our beginning point for late (and I mean LATE) Lionel and early MPC.
I used 1968, as the products that Lionel manufactured towards he end reflected more of the MPC standards than those I recognize as true Lionel.
I also consider 1968 and 1969 as being "late".
In 1968 and 1969, Lionel trains were still made by the Lionel Corp and certainly were true Lionel. The march towards lowering the quality of Lionel trains started way before 1968. There was a milestone in 1955 when the first switchers with sheet metal frames, and unitized motor/power trucks were cataloged. Scout motors were released before that, in 1950. I guess another milestone happened in 1958 when plastic freight trucks were introduced, and again in 1962 when the plastic truck assembly was modified to use knuckles with the hinge "pins" cast as part of the knuckle.
To me there is no surprise that early MPC reflected late Lionel product because that was their starting point. MPC seems to have started making improvements almost immediately. For example, I don't recall seeing any MPC product made with those "snap-in" knuckle trucks (which were very prone to breakage).
It really doesn't matter how we label it, it was quite awhile before any Lionel tooling could be directly attributable to MPC/Fundimensions/General Mills investment capital. I'm discounting new roadnames and paint schemes here and focusing on newly tooled molds and dies. But since I don't have a complete collection of catalogs, I'm not certain what we would or should call the first "true" MPC-Lionel product. What was the first item MPC-Lionel added to the line? Was it a locomotive? An accessory? Maybe we should figure that piece out?
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Oh! I forgot! I was going to mention that I've always loved those Milwaukee Road cars! I don't know what it is, but I always thought they were really neat.
The baby Madisons were a new mold also the the U36 body designed to fit the GP frame. Also the low nose GP types were never made by PW Lionel.
Penny TrainsWhat was the first item MPC-Lionel added to the line? Becky
The 9020 Flat Car.
Rob
Good evening all,
The 1970 catalog was the first by MPC. From the get go, MPC did have easier rolling trucks with the needle point axles turning in the journal boxes.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
MPC had their new diesel motor trucks in use for product shown in the 1970 catalog. At least some rolling stock was made with modified timken trucks that had fast-angle wheels. I don't know when the truck style changed, and I forget the name of the replacement truck style.
I like to look for rolling stock with those modified timken trucks, and buy them when I can.
They also had a lovely Hudson in the catalog in 1970, wish that they had made it though. Seems I'm not the only one, as I saw a "fantasy" version of it on fleabay the other day
I purchased one of those 9020 flats when it came out. It came with stakes, bulk heads, and pieces to convert it to a work caboose: a cab and work tray. The pieces had little pins that plugged into the holes in the deck. The pins are easily broken off. It's shown in the 1971 Lionel catalog.
Another newly tooled item from MPC is shown in the 1971 catalog: the Mini-max boxcar.
I guess that it is worth mentioning that while the 9040 series boxcars were made using the Postwar 6014 mold, they were mounted to a newly designed plastic frame. Postwar Lionel used a sheet metal frame. I have not seen a 9040 series boxcar that was new, old stock that that a sheet metal frame. Of couse people could have mounted the shells to postwar sheetmetal frames.
Another item shown in the 1970 catalog but never made was the satellite launching car. How about the bridge shown in the 1970 catalog as part of the 2791 Cross Country set? Was that a new Lionel product, or just a repackaged Plasticville item? The rest of the pieces look like Plasticville, but I am unfamilar with a Plasticville bridge.
A few years back, I bought the O27 Lionel Crayola set. At various times, I used the engine and cars on various layouts over the years.
This year, I decided to put a circle of O27 track around the tree for the K-Line Coca-Cola bears handcar w/trailer. Since the bears didn't come with any track....and I didn't want to go through a bunch of boxes....I figured I'd use the track and transformer from the Crayola set. I was surprised to find that set contained Lionel's Hobby Transformer Model Number 4660. It is clearly labeled, "DC track", "AC access". It has a sticker over the AC terminals that states, "WARNING Use this side for accessories only. May cause damage to locomotive motor." Those are things I never expected to see in a modern-age Lionel O gauge transformer.
Since I'd never unpacked the transformer nor track, I'd never seen that warning before. I'd run the Crayola engine along with all my other engines using AC transformers. It never seemed to have a problem running on AC. Today I was searching for some stuff on ebay when I noticed a couple of Crayola sets up for sale. Both had Black AC controllers w/UL-listed wall packs pictured on the box in place of where my box had the 4660 pictured. Now that 4660 appears to be identical to one that I'd found powering an HO Bachmann set I bought for my son years ago. Was that 4660 a carryover from the MPC days? Was I one of the unlucky ones to buy my set with a leftover 4660?
I had a 4660 in my Cannonball express, but as the Crayola set was not marketed with a DC engine (to my knowledge), since that probably was at the beginning of the AC/DC era, It all adds up to suggest it is leftover. Anyone else got any ideas?
Was there more than one Crayola set?According to the HSL Catalog archive, the only Crayola set (11813)was made in 1994. It came with a gondola hauling 12 crayons, boxcar, and a caboose. The boxcar was meant to be decorated by its owner(s). It was touted as washable, so it could be redecorated at will. It also came with a "coloring sheet" playmat. The flyer states that the engine was AC/DC, but the set came with a DC transformer. It was also cataloged in 1995. We gave away a crayola set as a door prize for one of our local train shows.
I am now curious about when MPC introduced DC train sets. So far, the earliest one I found was from 1973.
That sounds about right to me, the weird Southern set I believe?
cwburfle Was there more than one Crayola set?According to the HSL Catalog archive, the only Crayola set (11813)was made in 1994. It came with a gondola hauling 12 crayons, boxcar, and a caboose. The boxcar was meant to be decorated by its owner(s). It was touted as washable, so it could be redecorated at will. It also came with a "coloring sheet" playmat. The flyer states that the engine was AC/DC, but the set came with a DC transformer. It was also cataloged in 1995. We gave away a crayola set as a door prize for one of our local train shows.
I didn't think there was more than one until now. If you do a search for a Crayola set on ebay, there's a person (treasurekeeper) selling one like mine. You can see the 4660 pictured in the upper right of the box top when you look at the pictures supplied. (You have to put your pointer over the pic to see it zoom in for detail). There's another seller (2011lottastuff) selling a Crayola set with the controller/powerpack combo pictured on the box in place of the 4660 on the upper right. The sets appear to be identical apart from the 4660/combo.
At first I thought maybe the 4660 was included in 1994, and the combo included in 1995. However there's another seller (goooodbuys) who is selling another Crayola set containing the combo that states it's from 1994. I assume he got that year from the copyright date somewhere on the box. I checked the box on mine, and it states "© 1994 Binney & Smith Properties, Inc." The set number is actually 6-11813.
Due to the different power sources supplied, the "CAUTION-ELECTRIC TOY" warning is different. The box on mine states:
TRANSFORMER RATING - INPUT: 120 VAC. 50/60 HZ ONLY. AC OUTPUT 20 V; DC OUTPUT 0-17V; 7 VA TOTAL
The combo version states:
TRANSFORMER RATING-INPUT:120 VAC; 16 HZ 19 W; AC OUPUT: 16 VAC
If ebay user "goooodbuys" is correct (and there's no reason to doubt the set is from 1994), then the combo was substituted part way through production in 1994. Since Lionel continued to use the new combo for years afterward, I'll bet all of the sets from 1995 have the combo also. There's also the possibility no new sets were produced in 1995, and Lionel just cataloged the set in 1995 to get rid of leftover stock.
Very interesting.I took another look at my HSL archive. The 1995 catalog description says:"An AC controller with UL listed wall pack and the necessary hookups.."Price was $99.95, set #11813.The 1994 flyer description says:"Set also includes a UL-listed DC power pack"Price was $99.95, I do not see a set number
I just checked the set number on mine so I know 6-11813 is correct. I just checked ebay user 2011lottastuff99's description of the set and it states:
CRAYOLA ACTIVITY SET NUMBER 6-11813
Same set number---------Different contents.
CONCLUSION:
There are TWO DIFFERENT Lionel Crayola Activity Train Sets with the same catalog number.
(I've got the COLLECTOR'S ITEM version with the LIMITED EDITION crappy transformer. Yay! LOL)
The first DC set, the U.S. steel Industrial Switcher (6-1389), was introduced in the '73 catalog. The description included the sentence: "A totally new set with totally new ideas." The switcher featured the all new Power/Master DC Motor. it was the only DC catalog set that year. It was also the only DC set cataloged in '74 And '75. In '76 the only DC set was the Yard Boss (6-1660). This was followed by the Steel Haulers (6-1760) in '77. It wasn't until '79 when more than a single DC set appeared in the yearly catalog. That year included the Smokey Mountain Line (6-1965), Midnight Flyer (6-1960), and Black River Freight (6-1963).
I was never a fan of the DC sets. Even though they were the low end starter sets and "DC" kept the cost down, I thought DC sets were a marketing mistake; they basically dead ended the ability for future growth.
Papa-D
phrankenstign I just checked the set number on mine so I know 6-11813 is correct. I just checked ebay user 2011lottastuff99's description of the set and it states: CRAYOLA ACTIVITY SET NUMBER 6-11813 Same set number---------Different contents. CONCLUSION: There are TWO DIFFERENT Lionel Crayola Activity Train Sets with the same catalog number. (I've got the COLLECTOR'S ITEM version with the LIMITED EDITION crappy transformer. Yay! LOL)
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The Crayola Activity Train Set (6-11813) was uncatalogued in '94 and catalogued in '95. The industrial switched engine (18930) came in both DC and AC versions, yes in reality different engines with the same number. The catalog version came with an AC controller, therefore I assume the uncataloged version that probably sold at Toys R Us or some similar chain came with the DC version. There are several other examples of industrial switchers coming with either AC or DC motors in the early to mid 90's (18926 Reading, 18925 D&RG, 18924 Illinois Central, 18912 Amtrak, and 18911 Union Pacific. I believe the DC version was using up left over motors and transformers.
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