So.......Does anyone have a pic of the prototype they can post here?
My car wouldn't stay on the tracks.
The CTT October 2001 issue Collectible Classic featured the Lionel 9090 Mini-Max Railcar. The article was written by Mike Bell who collected all 4 variations; light or dark blue, and “G” in the fourth panel from either the right or left. He speculates that the light blue railcars which didn’t come with internal struts were initial production. These cars had a roof sag which made lifting the side panel doors difficult if not impossible. The dark blue all came with internal struts that MPC added to prevented the roof from sagging. The dark blue railcars contained a photocopied insert explaining that the struts were for structural packaging and shipping strength and could be cut out by the buyer. (Bad advice, if these struts were removed then the roof sagged just like the light blue ones.) This railcar came in the 1182 Yardmaster set and as a separate sale item only in ’71. Some but not all cars came with 3 “palletainers” on black skids. The container cubes came in at least 5 colors; lime green, orange, pale yellow, brown, and gray. The article also references the ’70 edition of the Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia which listed two 45’ Mini-Max railcars with upward-opening doors used to haul lightweight products.
Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel Trains 1970-1988, pages 83-84, gives a pretty good history for the 9090 Mini-Max Boxcar ("boxcar" used instead of “railcar”). While written much earlier than the CTT article, it is in general agreement with but not as complete as the above information. It does noted that “9090 Series” is on the end plate which they took to indicated MPC likely planned to make more varieties of them. They speculated this plan was ended by the sagging roof problem.
Papa D
No memory here, just Google... which sent me HERE.
Rob
You've got quite a memory, Mr. ADCX Rob!
Were there any pictures of the prototype?
cwburfle...my belief that there is a prototype for the Minimax car has to be rooted in something I read when the car came out. Perhaps in Model Railroad Craftsman, which was probably the magazine I was reading at the time.
The Mini-Max was featured in the October, 1969 issue of Modern Railroads.
Really? There's an actual, real-life Mini-Max? I tried Googling it, but I couldn't find any pics of it. Do you know where I can find one?
You're also stating the 3 skids WERE included by Lionel, right?
As I recall, three was the correct number. I think I've read that they came in different colors. I have a couple of the cars, one that I purchased when they first came out and used. And one that I purchased because I wanted a mint one with the sprues between the roof and floor still in place. As far as a picture goes: my belief that there is a prototype for the Minimax car has to be rooted in something I read when the car came out. Perhaps in Model Railroad Craftsman, which was probably the magazine I was reading at the time.
Interresting! Good thing it's interesting, otherwise a tale like that would have my head spinning!
phrankenstign I thought Lionel had bought out K-Line. Are you telling me K-Line was bought out by Kader?
I thought Lionel had bought out K-Line. Are you telling me K-Line was bought out by Kader?
No. Kader, K-Line's manufacturer, acquired K-Line when K-Line folded. Lionel was in the mix for two years because Lionel had a judgement against K-Line, which was just about to be settled, when for some reason known only to him, Maury Klein backed out of at the last minute and he lost K-Line to creditors.
phrankenstignAre you also telling me Kader manufactured the "K-Line by Lionel" trains, while Lionel only distributed and took the credit them?
Yes. Somebody had to manufacture the line, Lionel has no factory(ies). It was all pursuant to a lawsuit settlement & the courts. Lionel still only distributes, and takes the credit for, the trains in their current catalogs... they are an importer.
phrankenstignDid Lionel ever take possession of any of K-Line's dies or tooling?
Yes, to my recollection there was a transfer of some higher end steam loco tooling.
phrankenstignIf you say Kader is using the O-Line Reproductions name to liquidate stuff RMT manufactured, has Kader stated what they plan to do once it's all sold?
No, they have not. But to be clear, Kader used the O-Line Reproductions name to liquidate stuff RMT announced, ordered, & was selling, and Kader manufactured(it's a done deal as of now - this is all old news). RMT had been using a variety of K-Line tooling including the S-2("Bang"), RDC("Buddy"),Hoppers("Bopper") (all originally Marx), passenger cars, GG1, & more.
Of course, Kader has since purchased Williams Reproductions Limited, so they do have a "O" brand now (Williams By Bachmann) so anything is possible.
I thought Lionel had bought out K-Line. Are you telling me K-Line was bought out by Kader? How did Ready Made Toys get a hold of K-Line dies and tooling? Are you also telling me Kader manufactured the "K-Line by Lionel" trains, while Lionel only distributed and took the credit for them? Did Lionel ever take possession of any of K-Line's dies or tooling?
If you say Kader is using the O-Line Reproductions name to liquidate stuff RMT manufactured, has Kader stated what they plan to do once it's all sold?
phrankenstignWhat makes you think they are made from former K-Line dies and tooling? Did Lionel sell off some of their K-Line stuff?
It is K-Line tooling, but those items that went to Ready Made Toys (now Ready Made Trains), not Lionel. RMT folded amidst their spinoff/breakup with Aristo when Aristo closed up. The "O Line Reproductions" are all items RMT cataloged, announced, even sold on their website.
Kader, the manufacturer, owned the tooling in the acquisition of K-Line's assets and licensed for two years the K-Line name & distribution to Lionel.
O-Line Reproductions were packaged intentionally in K-Line appearing boxes & blister packs by Kader to liquidate inventory left overseas by RMT and was distributed by Heartland Hobby Wholesale to their dealers. There is a fair amount of it floating around now.
phrankenstign BTW Did yours come with any kind of load? I was looking at some on ebay, and one of them being sold by divinelady388 "ALSO INCLUDES 3 SKIDS OF GENERAL MILLS PRODUCTS, NEW IN BOX".
BTW Did yours come with any kind of load? I was looking at some on ebay, and one of them being sold by divinelady388 "ALSO INCLUDES 3 SKIDS OF GENERAL MILLS PRODUCTS, NEW IN BOX".
Mine came with three gray plastic cartons, though one of the yellow skids is missing.
Like I said, I have no idea the O-Line products are made with K-Line tooling, but there's been speculation about the same. I'm just a mystified as the rest. All of a sudden they just showed up. Anyway, the quality is excellent.
I've tried researching O-Line on the Web and can't find a thing except for who's selling them. The boxes are rather plain, black and yellow with product labels on the flaps and O-line on the top. I'll have to check the box for a website but don't recall seeing one. Give me a little time on that.
OK, I've checked an O-Line box and there's no website. There is an address for Heartland Hobby Wholesale, 6929 Seward Avenue, Lincoln NE, 68507. That's all
Also says "Made in China." No surprise there.
Did a bit more searching and found a website for Heartland Hobby wholesale:
www.hhwonline.com But there's no mention of O-Line in their product roster. It's a mystery.
What makes you think they are made from former K-Line dies and tooling? Did Lionel sell off some of their K-Line stuff? I thought K-Line had started making some excellent stuff with couplers that actually worked, sprung die-cast trucks, separately applied brake wheels and ladders, undercarriage details, opening hatches, etc. In many cases they offered a better deal per dollar than Lionel (just as MTH had done).
If Lionel did sell off some of those tools, I'm sure it will turn out to have been a mistake. Any competitor using those tools to produce rolling stock will cut into Lionel's market AGAIN!
BTW Do the O Line Reproduction boxes have a web-site or on-line presence printed on the box?
speaking of K-Line, here's something to puzzle over...
I'm seeing a brand of O gauge cars showing up at shows and hobby shops called "O-Line." I'm not sure if these are made with former K-Line dies and tooling or former RMT tooling, but the quality's excellent, at least on the stuff I've purchased so far. I bought an "O-Line" four car NYC passenger set back in December, and it's nice, first-rate quality all the way. I'm looking forward to seeing what else pops up.
I totally agree with your description of the different types of sellers. To me, I've never felt that I HAD to have any kind of train item. Sure there are items I'd like to have, but I can't justify paying hundreds of dollars for a toy (I'm an operator mainly.) Now more than ever, especially since I still have 2 "kids" who are college students living with me. I've rarely bought items at full retail or full price guide prices. In fact, I've bought quite a few Lionel sets over the years, but they were always heavily discounted. I've got most of them either right after Christmas or during the early summer when the demand was quite low. One way to get the best deals at train shows is to wait until it is close to closing time. Sellers DON'T want to take a lot of unsold stuff back with them. They want to sell as much as they can, so they don't have to work carrying a lot back home. If they can help it, they'll usually be more apt to discount a little more to get rid of stuff. I usually offer to buy a few sale items together for a further discount for buying multiple items. Many dealers tend to go for it. Since I've never been desperate to buy anything, I walk away if they say no. I've had a few dealers wave me back to tell me they'd agreed to the additional discount after all over the years. Unfortunately, I don't get to go to very many shows anymore. Mississippi has very few train shows. I miss living in the Tidewater area of Virginia (Hampton, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Newport News), where train shows were regularly scheduled events throughout the year.
I'm definitely a fan of Cheap Classics. I love the toy aspect of model trains, so I don't mind running whimsically, and totally unprototypical consists. If I find something colorful and fun, I'll get it and run it. I can appreciate prototypically accurate items, but I just don't have the room to use wide radius track. That limitation keeps me running shorter (and less expensive) rolling stock.
I miss K-Line, because they had some of the most colorful (and in many cases fantasy) roadnames at very low prices (compared to Lionel). Their quality kept improving throughout the 90s, and I'm sure they pulled a lot of sales away from Lionel. In addition to their already lower MSRPs, dealers were more apt to discount them heavily. They just didn't have the magic of the Lionel name that automatically increased the price collectors were willing to pay. Their K-Line Collectors Club offered tremendous deals sometimes. It's too bad Lionel bought them out, cheapened the K-Line name, and then did away with it. I wonder what the secondary market demand is like for the K-Line by Lionel items. In fact, I wonder if those items are included in the Lionel price guides.
phrankenstign For some reason, I thought TM books and Greenberg had merged. After doing some searches on ebay, I guess I was wrong. It looks to me as if those are the only companies making Lionel trains price guides now. Am I right?
For some reason, I thought TM books and Greenberg had merged. After doing some searches on ebay, I guess I was wrong. It looks to me as if those are the only companies making Lionel trains price guides now. Am I right?
As far as I know, TM and Greenberg's are the only price guides around at this time. There were the David Doyle guides in the early 2000's but they're out of print now. The Most recent TM guides I can find are the American Flyer guide from 2012 and the Lionel guide from 2011. Greenberg is showing 2017 guides.
At any rate, price guides are useful for "ball-park" figures, what the market will bear is usually another thing, and then you have to throw the human factor in.
In my forty years of collecting various things I've found there's various types of sellers. There's the professionals who HAVE to move product, because if they don't they won't stay in business very long, and they tend to be the most realistic as far as pricing is concerned. Then there's others who think they've got "pieces of the True Cross," and they tend to be pretty intractable. And if you're VERY lucky you'll run into the seller who doesn't know what he's got, but that doesn't happen too often.
Myself, I've got a figure in my head of what I'm willing to pay and just won't go above it. If I miss out, so what? It's not the end of the world.
Of course, I probably haven't told anyone anything they don't know already.
cwburfle 9090 Minimax car - it has a prototype. The skids are often missing. When released, at least some of the cars had casting spues in the openings on the sides that ran from the roof to the floor. There was a piece of paper packed in each box thatinstructed the owner to remove them.
9090 Minimax car - it has a prototype.
The skids are often missing. When released, at least some of the cars had casting spues in the openings on the sides that ran from the roof to the floor. There was a piece of paper packed in each box thatinstructed the owner to remove them.
That General Mills Mini-Max RailCar always made me laugh. It looks super cheap with its 4 wheels, but its weird look always appealed to me. Did Lionel ever produce that car with any other roadname graphics on it? The fact the doors opened upward was an unexpected surprise. I'd like to get one someday. I think it would look good with the Crayola engine, the short no-name gondolas, and the manual no-name dump cars I've got. All I'd have to add then to complete the toy-like nature of the consist would be a 4 wheel bobber caboose.
Lionel # 9090 General Mills Mini-Max Railcar from 1971.
http://robertstrains.com
It also got me wondering about how corrections and updates are made to the guides when new information is gathered.
I've written the publisher or author. There usually are instructions on how to make reports. Whether they add your report, or otherwise take action is something only they can decide. I made one report, complete with supporting documentation, that took quite a few editions to appear.
I was looking at this old thread, and it got me wondering whether any of the price guides mention there are two different Crayola sets and the differences Mike C. noted about RTR sets only having Lionchief while the separate sale items have Lionchief Plus.
The last guide I bought was TM's Lionel Price & Rarity Guide 1901-1998. It only detailed the Crayola set's rolling stock and the two years it was sold. I don't think Lionchief Plus had been introduced yet.
Since I'm mainly an operator/collector, I don't really care about the value of what I own very much. I tend to buy modern stuff when it's on sale. I only bought that guide, because I was trying to identify which set my dad bought that I kind of took over once I was old enough to know how to connect everything together. (I'd searched through Greenberg and TM books, but I never found it. It was a simple set with 233 loco, 233W whistling Lionel Lines tender, 6343 Lionel barrel ramp car, 6162 NYC blue gondola w/canisters, and 6456 Lehigh Valley black hopper, brown SP-style Lionel caboose. It included track and transformer plus maybe telephone poles and small white signs. The closest set I found had the same rolling stock but with a RED Lehigh Valley hopper. I don't know where my dad bought it, but he used to buy a lot of stuff at Speigel. I seem to remember reading that Lionel sold many uncatalogued sets through them. It made me think perhaps that's where he bought it. Unfortunately our basement flooded in the 70s where the set was kept, and the boxes were all ruined. Once I dried everthing off, I found everything still worked. My mom threw out the boxes, and then she gave me a generic box to use for the set from then on.)
Good evening all,
Perhaps I need to clarify. The Cannonball was the cheapest set. Although looking at the 1970 "catalog", none of the sets had a 3 position reversing unit. It was forward or reverse. Some of the separate sale engines had a neutral as well. Hmmm..... the more things change, the more they stay the same. Today the RTR sets have only have Lionchief and the separate sale items have Lionchief Plus..... hmmmmm.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
Man, top of the line had a reverse? I need to get me one of those lol.
Way back then I bought my 2 boys a Cannonball set. Since it was not a big deal set I put a toggle switch through the cab roof for the manual reverse.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Tonight I pulled out the 1970 Wabash Cannonball set to run. I also have some 1970 cars as well. Talk about a hodge-podge of couplers! There are totally manual couplers (no metal at all), cars with one operating coupler with a metal tab in it, and the 9200 series boxcars with TWO operating couplers. The Cannonball was the price leader for 1970 as it had a manual reverse. The rolling stock could be oriented in one direction only so that every piece could be uncoupled. This was definitely for small layouts only. I took the engine to a repair shop a couple of years ago as it was pretty sluggish. Now it runs like a champ.
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