ALCo PA s

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The Doctor Is In !!! egmurphy, Thank you for the update on my info, the repair man at my favorite train shop asked what I knew about the wine train loco's. I was going by what was on the tape,next time I will check the diesel spotters guide. Thanks again !
Till My Next Missive I Remain The Humble Yet Strangly Evil Doctor!!![}:)]

[egmurphy]

I could be wrong but I think the Napa Valley Wine Train locomotives are FPA-4's, not PA-4's. They'd be 4 axle diesels, instead of the 6 axle PA's.

Here's an article on the wine train, including their diesels:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2002/10/31/030824.php

Regardless of what's pulling it, I'd love to have an opportunity to ride that train.

Best regards

Ed

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The Doctor Is In !!! As to ALCO PA/FA's , I have on tape the Napa Valley(calif.) Wine Train and it is pulled by two PA-4's(this what the voice over says) that were CN Loco's. They started in 1989 and are still running last I heard. Any Questions on this?? It seems that at least two ALCO's are running in the US.
Till My Next Missive I Remain The Humble Yet Strangly Evil Doctor !!![}:)]

[trolleyboy]

I know that Al already covered this but the still seemed to be a bit of confusion.Neither CN or CP owned the PA's. CN did test a pair of PA's in 1950. They got the then standard CNR paint job of olive green and imitation duluxe gold ( not the later CNR yellow )They were numbered 9078 and 9079. CN tested them for 8 months but then returned them to Alco as they found that the Fa's worked better for them.

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

I have seen photos of what look like PA's on the Napa Valley Wine Train and also on the Grand Canyon Railroad. I wonder if they have the same sort of maintenance problems everyone keeps talking about?

Hi these units were bought from Via rail when they were retired in the mid to late 80's. They are actually FPA4's a four axle CNR / MLW concoction. They were built in the late 50's certainly the last locomotives built on the tried and true FA design. There biggest claim to fame was that they were built ( from the factory ) With the newer and improved 251 series engine so the crank problems assosiated with the 244 was not an issue with these locomotives.

CNR bought them originally for their Super Continental cross Canada Train. When Via formed they got all A and B versions of this locomotive and used them system wide.The FPA4's were numbered as follow 6760-65 ,(built in 1958) 6767-91( built in 1959 ) las t order one unit 6793 ( built in 1959 ) The FPB4's were numbered as follows 6860-66 ( built in 1958 ) and 6867-71 ( built in 1959 ) They were all equiped with the 251 rated at 1800hp and were painted in the CNR classic green / black / yellow super continental passenger scheme. They carried their road numbers with them to Via rail and were painted in the blue/yellow via scheme.



Rob

[jlampke]

ragemanchoo: I was in OR last summer, driving from Portland to Eugene, and stopped in Albany to eat at that Chinese buffet there on the main drag. [dinner] Don't remember the name of the street or the restaurant. The food was good though. [tup] I drove past the rail yard there and saw a Daylight painted car sitting there. It was blocked by some other cars, so I couldn't get a good look at it. I drove down the gravel road there to get a better view, but it was blocked on that side too. I didn't want any trouble, so I didn't get out of my truck or hang around. Do you know anything about that car? [?]

[Anonymous]

Well folks, I have not recived any updates lately on how the PA is doing. [:(]

I hope that work has continued but just don't know that for sure.

I hope we do get an update soon.


F Y I

If you do not know or have not heard this is one of the two units rescued from Mexico. One is being completely restored and will see some mainline excursion action in the future. The other one is going to be put in the Smithsonian after some cosmetic work. For all I know, it may be there now. The one that Doyle M is doing can be found here:

NKP190.com

Also here is one of the latest photos of the PA

http://www.nkp190.com/newpaint.jpg

I hope you enjoy the photos as much as I do.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

It has been a little over 3 months since our last PA update. I expect to hear some news sometime in the near future. They work at their own pace so we just have to be patient with them. I know some of you are as anxious as I am. [:D]

They have just released a recent photo. [:D]

Here is the most recent offering from the Doyle camp. [:)]

http://www.nkp190.com/turntablefarside.jpg

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SDR_North

Dear Passenger Fan,

I found CPR Documentation from 1965 and 1966 that shows most CPR Alco GE and MLW GE 244 and 251 Road Power was Geared for 75 MPH from the Factory.

H-Lines and Train Masters were GE-Equipped and were Geared for 75 MPH.

This 75 MPH applied to Freight and Passenger versions and was considered fast enough for Secondary Passenger Trains on the bulk of CPR's Track.

There are very few places where a Secondary Psgr. Train would reach 75 MPH, as they generally stopped everywhere.

A great portion of CPR's Track is in very rough terrain where 50 MPH is unheard of, so a 75 MPH GE Equipped Alco/MLW or CLC would do fine, and have the Higher T.E. for Grade Work..

"Dayliner" Budd Cars are another creature, and they could go much faster on Slow Track than Locomotive-Hauled Trains.

An exception to the 75 MPH Rule were CP 8400-04 Alco-GE RS2 Geared for 65 MPH. These Units had Plain ( Not Roller ) Bearings when new, and some had S/G for Psgr. Service when Built.

CP 8400-04 did NOT have MU!! and had to Double Head on heavy Trains.

Note NO MU in following Photo from the Internet. The Fins on top of the Fan fold down when Fan not turning.

http://www.niagararails.com/cgi-bin/rosters1.cgi?/rosters/cp/8400/8404cp.jpg


The CP 567 B-B Road GMDs had either 65 MPH Freight OR 89 MPH Passenger Gearing.

CP ordered GP9s 8483-8490, 8501-21 with 89 MPH Psgr Gearing and swapped these Trucks with those under CP Fs 4041, 4058-63, 4066-75 and Bs 4434-4445 and then Renumbered the now-89 MPH Units into the 1400/1900 Series. CPR Classed these 89 MPH Fs as DPA/DPB for Diesel Passenger A/B.

Other GMD Fs were Regeared and Renumbered from 4000/4400 to 1400/1900 in the 1950s, then some Renumbered back in 1960s.

CP GP9s 8511-12 had S/G and were 89 MPH for a time.

Even with their 75 MPH cability, NONE of the CP Alco/MLW Cabs received the DPA/B Class, as they were esentially Freight Units.

Several FREIGHT Units from all Classes were fitted with Through Steam Lines so they could be added to Locomotive Consists behind Passenger Power on Passenger Trains.

The CP C-Lines were Westinghouse-Equipped and were good for 70 MPH.


I have J Pegd some of this Data, and you could e-mail me for it if you wish.

As far as CN is concerned, yes they DID equip some of their 244 Cabs for High Speed Passenger Work, the following Site has a Download from 1964 showing Data for the CN Diesel Fleet. Very valuable for the nit-picking armchair railfan. Get It!

http://www.cnlines.com/cycl/loco/dbook.html


Here is a selection of photos of CPR First Gen. Units I took years ago, some of these Units were Built as Passenger Units, and had their S/Gs removed in the Sixties.


A Freight MLW-GE FA1 with Green Flags for Following Section.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce91262515b63b00000016108KauXDZk4g

A Freight MLW-GE RS3
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce91262513b63d00000016108KauXDZk4g

A Freight FA1 with a Passenger FPA2 on far end
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce91262511b63f00000016108KauXDZk4g

A S/G-Equipped RS10. Tank on stand to right is for Steam Locomotive Bunker Oil.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce9126251fb63100000016108KauXDZk4g

An A-A set of once-Psgr. C-Lines
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce9126251c370200000016108KauXDZk4g

A once-Psgr C-Line with Green Flags
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce9126251db63300000016108KauXDZk4g

A Freight RS18 and a Passenger H-16-44 on a Plow.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce9126251a370400000016108KauXDZk4g

Once 89 MPH Geep with still-Active S/G This is a 'Torpedo Geep' with Air Reservoirs on top of Long Hood.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce91263968377800000016108KauXDZk4g

An A-B-B-B-A
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce91263952374200000016108KauXDZk4g

Train Master on Freight
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce91263953b67300000016108KauXDZk4g

A once-Psgr Baldwin good for 60 MPH
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db22b3127cce91266c1677b400000016108KauXDZk4g

In the A-B-B-B-A set,the rear A unit appears to be an FM C Liner[:)].

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Erie/EL used its PA's in suburban service and NH DL109's/PA's were used in Boston suburban service late in their lives. It's quite possible that many suburban services were dieselized with road switchers so the locomotives would be used in local freight service, transfers, etc. on weekends.

[METRO]

You know what I've always wondered about the PAs, why they didn't get picked up by commuter lines more.

ALCo had some really great wins for the RS-series in the east with commuter runs, and the last FAs just left the rails a few years ago (yes they were HEP generators by then but so were GO Transit's EMD F7ACPUs)

Think about it though, fast, good acceleration, enough pulling power to hammer D&RGW's trains through the Rockies with a single unit on most of them, sounds like a good commuter engine to me. It also doesn't hurt that some commuter lines have the best shop services in the Americas, so the 244's problems wouldn't cause that much of an issue.

I'm a lifelong ALCo backer, mainly because my grandfather worked there for a good part of his life, and I believe that any first-generation power that can be saved should be. So, that said, one can see why I've been following the restoration for a while. Haha, my only problem with it so far is that I firmly believe that the NYC lightning stripes were the most beautiful paint the PA ever was in, so I was kind of let down when they chose the NKP blue and cream, but that's really not a bad choice really lol.

LOL! I really think that another great thing to come out of this restoration is that we can finally show the seemingly growing number of people that are confusing the PA-1 with FPA-4s what they have been missing!

~METRO

[passengerfan]

SDR_NORTH I believe you will find that the CPR and CNR FPA-2 and FPA-4 were geared for passenger service and the FPA-2 shown in the picture with the trailing MLW RS unit that this was taken at Sudbury it was probably the power for the Toronto section of the Canadian. The RS unit was also geared for passenger service and equipped with steam generator. The CN FPA-4 were higher geared than the CP units as CN used them between Quebec City and Windsor where higher speeds were required to maintain schedule. This was especially true between Montreal and Toronto.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mr. Frank
[Here's a real good question (at least in my humble opinion) - given that roads like Santa Fe, SP and Rio Grande all found that the Alco PA's had such a clear performance advantage, why didn't these roads get FA's for freight, and instead rely solely on EMD's F-units? I could be mistaken, but I don't believe any of these three roads had FA's on their rosters. This is especially puzzling on SP, which had multiple, repeat orders for PA's, and yet did not order any FA's (yet, SP purchased close to 800 F-units!!). Does anyone have any idea as to the seemingly inconsistent purchases for freight vs. passenger power in terms of Alco v. EMD?

The answer lies in the territory served by SP and D&RGW. They wanted dynamic brakes on the locomotives, which ALCO offered but EMD refused. The designers at EMD had some very strong opinions on how locomotives should be used, and dynamics on passenger locomotives was not in the cards. Thus until EMD finally offered dynamics on the E's, ALCO held an advantage in the mountains.

[jimrice4449]

The Canadian Pacific had Alco PAs?????????????

[Anonymous]

It has been a little over 3 months since our last PA update. I expect to hear some news sometime in the near future. They work at their own pace so we just have to be patient with them. I know some of you are as anxious as I am. [:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

New News. [:D]

Work is now progressing again.

Check out the latest photo.

http://www.nkp190.com/sidepanels.jpg

The other day just one photo was available, now there are more showing how the work is progressing.

So if you are interested check them out.

http://www.nkp190.com/2005_01_06_updatespage3.shtml#110506352280025124

[Anonymous]

New News. [:D]

Work is now progressing again.

Check out the latest photo.

http://www.nkp190.com/sidepanels.jpg

[Anonymous]

Personally, I'd keep one in the D&H livery as they were painted in those colours longer than they were Santa Fe.

How so? Early 50's to late 60's compared with late '60's to the early 80's? Think the ATSF years would have tenure.

[Anonymous]

Update

Well sorry but there isn't much to update at the current time. According to the NKP190 website Doyle has been busy and work on the 190 has slowed.

I hope we can hear better news in the near future. [^]

[CP5415]

Personally, I'd keep one in the D&H livery as they were painted in those colours longer than they were Santa Fe.

Gordon

[Anonymous]

Doyle can paint his PA ANY way he cares to, 'cause it's his Alco. I also understand his nostalgic and real ties to the NKP.

BUT, the blue & white passenger paint applied to that magnificent carbody does not do justice to that locomotive. Were it my decision, I'd paint that long-nosed Alco with NYC "Lightning Stripes", emphasizing that thoroughbred nose and flanks.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mr. Frank

Along the lines of what some of you have written above (excellent points by the way), there seems to be a clear consensus that: 1) the Alco PA's pulled a little better than equivalent h.p. EMD's; but 2) the EMD's greater reliability and lower maintenance costs more than offset whatever pulling advantage the Alco's had (at least when comparing those roads which had the choice of putting EMD's or Alco's on certain passenger runs.

Here's a real good question (at least in my humble opinion) - given that roads like Santa Fe, SP and Rio Grande all found that the Alco PA's had such a clear performance advantage, why didn't these roads get FA's for freight, and instead rely solely on EMD's F-units? I could be mistaken, but I don't believe any of these three roads had FA's on their rosters. This is especially puzzling on SP, which had multiple, repeat orders for PA's, and yet did not order any FA's (yet, SP purchased close to 800 F-units!!). Does anyone have any idea as to the seemingly inconsistent purchases for freight vs. passenger power in terms of Alco v. EMD?

In Joe Strapac's book on SP PAs he states that several times SP went to EMD to order E units,but due to long delivery time, went to ALCo for PAs instead.

[Anonymous]

THanks. Sounds like more confusion that it was worth. [%-)]

Doyle McCormack is keeping one of the two PA's. Right?

Since my first post, I have read somewhere that the PA he is restoring for the Smithsonian will only be a cosmetic restoration -- no engine, I guess. I found that pretty sad...but I guess it wouldnt matter if all it were doing was sitting in a museum hall or courtyard. Seems like it would make a great moving advertisement for the Smithsonian if they chose to put an engine in it, maybe do some scenic tour or dinner trip thing.

I haven't been able to get to the train yard in Albany, Oregon lately -- I dont have a car at the moment. When I get a chance I'll take a look to see the remaining engine is still there.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ragemanchoo

"I have found a site that has a picture of SF 59L"

Is that what NKP #190 was originally? One of the two brought up from Mexico is still in Albany...at least, I think it is? I might be #190. The other engine was slated to get the 'warbonnet' paint scheme, and #190 clearly hasn't received that. I'm anxious to see what it looks like when its finished -- I grew up in Albany and remember the PA (two? I dont remember) up on blocks in the trainyard, near a side street.



Thanks,
Ryan Thompson
Corvallis, Oregon

Ryan [:)]

When the PAs were delivered to S F RR they were "numbered" as 59L/A/B or 60L/A/B and so on. Even though the sets were in A B A fashion the booster unit was the one numbered as the A unit. This numbering system was because of the labor union agreements as to what a "locomotive" was and for assigning firemem under those agreements. The units were being delivered in 1948 and railroads were still running steam engines. The "L" stood for Lead for the unit leading the consist. After about a year S F would rearrange the numbering system so that the "B" units would be labeled as L units, therefore, any PA cab unit was numbered as an L unit. The booster units would still be labeled as A units. I know this sounds pretty strange and far-fetched but it was done by the railroad to get around the labor arrangements.

If this doesn't make any sense maybe Paul or Mr. H might add to it and make it understandable.


Now changing the subject--slightly--anyone ever heard of the Alco PA8/10 [?] [:D]

[Anonymous]

190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190

I can't wait , Never having had the chance to see one in person. (They were razor blades years before I happened) I can't wait to see NKP190 come rolling "Back" to Ohio !

Get going Mr. McCormick let the blue and immitiation aluminium paint fly !

190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190 190

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ragemanchoo

"I have found a site that has a picture of SF 59L"

Is that what NKP #190 was originally? One of the two brought up from Mexico is still in Albany...at least, I think it is? I might be #190. The other engine was slated to get the 'warbonnet' paint scheme, and #190 clearly hasn't received that. I'm anxious to see what it looks like when its finished -- I grew up in Albany and remember the PA (two? I dont remember) up on blocks in the trainyard, near a side street.



Thanks,
Ryan Thompson
Corvallis, Oregon

I don't have time right now but will try to answer your question Saturday evening.

[Anonymous]

"I have found a site that has a picture of SF 59L"

Is that what NKP #190 was originally? One of the two brought up from Mexico is still in Albany...at least, I think it is? I might be #190. The other engine was slated to get the 'warbonnet' paint scheme, and #190 clearly hasn't received that. I'm anxious to see what it looks like when its finished -- I grew up in Albany and remember the PA (two? I dont remember) up on blocks in the trainyard, near a side street.



Thanks,
Ryan Thompson
Corvallis, Oregon

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

RENFE was one of two European operators of the DL500, which is the Alco World Locomotive. It could also be found in Greece, Australia, Argentina, India, Pakistan, Peru and perhaps some other places. It was an export design and could be considered the third version of the Alco flatnose design. The DL500 was double-ended with a second cab in the flat end, rode on C-C trucks and was rated at 1800 HP. They could be found in freight or passenger service.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

The Spanish Government Railroad (I believe its acronym is RENFE) had what looked like Alco PA's. I photographed one (#318) in the shops south of Madrid from the San Cristobal de Los Angeles suburban stop back in October 2002. Were they actually Alco PA's or were they MLW FPA's? Does anybody know what that unit is used for , or if it istill in existence?

[Anonymous]

I wonder if baby-boomers who had American Flyer trains as kids pefer PA's while Lionel kids like E and F units?????

(I had A-F)