ALCo PA s

[Anonymous]

Does anyone have any recent information on the restoration of the ALCo PA s brought back from Mexico. There have been many questions about this ongoing restoration. I am sure many people would love to know what progress is being made and any information available would be greately appreciated. [:D]

[Anonymous]

There are photo links and info updates on railroadforums.com. The one unit has been re-engined of late and the nose has already been painted in Nickle Plate colors. Don't know the status about the one going to the museum.

[ironhorseman]

I heard, somewhere, one was going to be restored by Doyle McCormick ( of Daylight 4449 fame). It is to repainted in D&H colors. I don't know where I saw that (probably in Trains magazine) but it's getting late and I'm not going to go look it up now, you'll just have to take my word on. But I thought I'd make a post now, otherwise I'd forget by tomorrow.

Goodnight, America, and all the ships at sea.

[Anonymous]

They originally belonged to the D&H, but I had heard that McCormik was going to repaint them for the Nickle Plate.

[Anonymous]

Anyone else have any info? Please let us know anything you can. Any links would be great.

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

After going to bed and not being able to sleep I got up and started playing on the computer. I ran across this by accident. But here is some info, not very recent, about the project.


http://exotic.railfan.net/PA%20News.htm

[Anonymous]

My previous post contains a link for info on the project. If you use the link to get to the story there is another link in the story that does have more current info. [:)]

[Anonymous]

A link with photos of Doyle McCormicks project is NKP190.com.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cwayne

A link with photos of Doyle McCormicks project is NKP190.com.

Thanks, all info and links are appreciated. [:)]

[Anonymous]

Nice looking units. Too bad there in such shape. Makes me sad to see a wrecked ALCo, even sadder to see a wrecked EMD. But as long as no one's hurt...I laugh at wrecked GE's..HeeHee J/K

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FireDragonLightning

Nice looking units. Too bad there in such shape. Makes me sad to see a wrecked ALCo, even sadder to see a wrecked EMD. But as long as no one's hurt...I laugh at wrecked GE's..HeeHee J/K

The hyperlink in the story (the second link I referred to) takes you to the site that cwayne talked about earlier in this thread. There is a gallery there with different sections you can click on and view. One of the sections shows some wrecked Alcos. This is what Jay was referring to above.

The PA looks real nice. You can also see the 4449, in the background, painted in the Freedom Train colors. It looks nice too.

It is worth your time to take a "looksee" and enjoy the info there. AND you can sign up the the newsletter they offer on the project.

I hope you all take a look and enjoy it. [:)]

[Anonymous]

The most recent news of the Alco project is from July 2003.

If you want to take a look here is the link. [:)]


http://www.nkp190.com/updatespage2.shtml

[Trainnut484]

I have found a site that has a picture of SF 59L...

http://donross.railspot.com/dr081.htm

Hope this provides some help.

Take care

Russell

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

The most recent news of the Alco project is from July 2003.

If you want to take a look here is the link. [:)]


http://www.nkp190.com/updatespage2.shtml

If you go to this site there are alot of pics of the ongoing project. I just received an update today from the 190 website. You can register here and be put on a mailing list for updates.

[Anonymous]

Here is another link. The webmaster sent out a correction because some people were having problems with one of the links. This one should work fine.


http://www.nkp190.com/sheetmetal.jpg

[Anonymous]

For those who might not know the PA now has a horn. There was an update a short while ago.


NKP190.com


The photo gallery is pretty good. I hope everyone enjoys it. [:)]

[Anonymous]

I was going to ask why there isn't an F or E series resotration project, but figured out.. they never broke DOWN!

Brump-bump-chh

If anyone had to rate the overall performance of the PA, although a Lot of Railroads purchased them, they were among last place.. CP rail had a ton of them, and could hardly pawn them off, so to speak. The Fairbanks-Morse F series knock off was a high hit for CP. Baldwins' F series knock-off was fairly good as well. THE PA in itself had good looks, but as anyhting or anyone will tell you, good looks don't get you jack-all in the scheme of life.

And to be perfectly honest, why anyone would invest money into a PA, is beyond me. For the record, I'm Not to sound rude,I'm trying to sound more of an Economically sound mind.

It can be argued that the More or Less Working factory, Created embarsements to the locomotive system as we know it, I opuld disgaree, because I am from Montreal, On the generla Scheme of things, Alco would pull ahead form Baldwin, yet overall, The PA became a Let down to passengers, Just ask Via rail. But icluding the Century series, which still can be seen roaming around occasioanlly in Cn's Turcot Yard, Or the GE hydro plant near Laval, These locomotives are in fine shape, and you'd never know it from an EMD

So restoring a PA? HA! i laugh... Restoring another Alco Type.. Now theres somehting I would support.

[Anonymous]

I didn't think PAs were used anymore period. That's cool if they're restoring one, although not the most highly regarded motive power on some RRs, they still were extremly handsome.

[orsonroy]

According to "official rumors", the NKP 190 will be making a trip to the NKPHTS 2006 convention in Cleveland, IF it's restoration is done by then.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

According to "official rumors", the NKP 190 will be making a trip to the NKPHTS 2006 convention in Cleveland, IF it's restoration is done by then.

Sounds like it is time to start planning a train trip. [;)] [:)]

[Anonymous]

It's really great to see that the restoration work is going good! Actually, there are other PA's out there. There are supposed to be a couple remaining rusting away in Brazil (see http://alcoworld.railfan.net/pauli.htm ). I seem to recall reading on the internet that there was a preservation group that was restoring one, but I can't find it now. Anybody else hear about this?

Also, here's a link to a picture of the other PA that's still in Mexico: http://mexican.railspot.com/pa17.htm .

[Anonymous]

Dear Kevin,
You are asking for it! Your repeated attacks against the PA (and all Alcos for that matter) are disconcerting to say the least, especially as you admit you have never seen one. Admittedly, the PA might not have held the record for most reliable locomotive of all time, but is it possibe that somewhere in your conscience you might open your mind to the fact that EMD's, like all machines, are also subject to mechanical failure?! You seem to have it in for Alco's, but since you have never seen, much less driven, one, I am forced to conclude that your strongly negative opinions of Alco's are based on secondhand acounts of varrying accuracy. Has it ever occurred to you that a PA might at one time have pulled a passenger train successfully, or are all Alco products subject to failure from the day they leave Schenectady? Volunteering at a railraod museum, I can attest that our Alco restorations often take less time than EMD restorations. You seem to have a vendeta against GE as well, in spite of the fact that the DASH-9 was (and is) an incredibly popular locomotive. At this point, you would probably respond that this fact is because GE's are cheap. I am forced to reply that railroads also consider statistics such as reliability and longevity. I may go to the "Church of Alco," but you apparently are on a crusade against all non-EMD manufacturers.

Most respectfully yours,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman
[.....If anyone had to rate the overall performance of the PA, although a Lot of Railroads purchased them, they were among last place.. CP rail had a ton of them, and could hardly pawn them off, so to speak. .....

.... The PA became a Let down to passengers, Just ask Via rail.....

You need to get your facts straight. Neither Canadian Pacific nor VIA ever had a PA. The only railroad who regularly ran PAs into Canada was the D&H. VIA (and CP) had quite a number of FPA4s, but not a single PA. They are quite different locomotives.

[Anonymous]

Boys, boys! Now lets get calmed down or this string will become another conversation about pizza! There, Bergie, you owe me one![:D][angel][(-D]


Seriously, for those of you too young to remember--E's/F's and PAs both had big plusses and minuses. The EMD products were clearly much less maintenance-intensive, and had a better prime mover (the Alco prime mover plagued MLW for years and ultimately killed the LRC power units). On the other hand, the PA could outsprint, with a heavier load, any of the competing EMD products, and a lot of railroads used them for just that purpose. That's why you see them in their prime on a lot of locals and secondary pax trains that had to keep an ambitious schedule with a heavy consist. In some cases it took the PA's to keep schedules that could in no way be met by the same RR's E's. So when you see a PA on a local or mail train, it wasn't there necessarily because it was second-rate.

As to looks, they're both classics in their own ways, with entirely different design and styling philosophies. No reason to debate this--everybody's right if they think one looks good. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Now the 1955 Oldsmobile Greyhound Scenicruiser OOPS I mean Aerotrain--that's a different breed altogether.

It's ironic that the tables are now turned as to on-line performance--the real dragsters are the F40/F59's from EMD (Canada, by the way) and the Alco successors from GE owned by ATK and VIA can't keep up with them on a schedule with a significant number of closely-spaced (read, 20-40 miles apart, or less) stops. That's why Gil Mallory's people screamed bloody murder when Warrington tried to ram the GE's down their throats for the west coast short haul operations, and why you'll notice that the "emerging" commuter market is scraping for the EMDs anywhere they can find them and not out there flocking to the GE's--they just can't accelerate fast enough for that kind of schedule.

But let's have a reality check, guys. It's always good to see a historic piece (EMD, Alco or whatever) preserved. And it's even better if it runs, where we geezers can remember and admire and you young'uns can look and learn.[:)]

[passengerfan]

The PA required more maintenance than the E units mostly with the 244 engine. Remember the EMD E-3 through E-7 only developed 2,000 hp using two engines of 1,000 hp each. While the Alco PA developed 2,000 hp with a single engine. This made the Alco PA less expensive initially but maintenace costs over the life of the unit probably evened things out. The PA could be equipped with dynamic braking something only available on the E8 and E9 models from EMD. Some railroads had excellent maintenace programs and their incidence of road failures of PA's was practically non existent.
Railroads that received good service from their PA's were Santa Fe who assigned the units to the All Pullman Chief in A-B-A sets. Another regular assignment for the PA's on the AT&SF was the Grand Canyon and Texas Chief. The last regular assignment on the Santa Fe was the San Joaquin Valley service between Oakland and Bakersfield. The AT&SF Pa's were never assigned to the Super Chief or El Capitan these trains being EMC later EMD assignments.
The SP found the PA's with dynamic brakes able to maintain the hot schedule of the Shasta Daylight much better than the E units built for the trains. The same was true for the CASCADE the all pullman overnight train on the Oakland - Portland run. The PA's were also assigned to the City of San Francisco between Oakland pier and Ogden. The units served both of these railroads faithfully for many years in passenger service.
The Union Pacific and other railroads assigned their PA's to secondary passenger trains and later reassigned the units to freight service before going to scrap. Other Western Roads that operated PA's were the Katy, MP and D&RGW. Major operators of the PA's in the east were the NYC, NKP, PRR and SOU. The NYNH&H operated PA's in passenger service during the day and freight service at night. The D&H operated four former AT&SF units the only PA's ever operated by three roads as they eventuallty ended up in Mexico and it is one of these being rebuilt in Portland.

[Anonymous]

To help fill out the list in the west-------

ATSF also regularly assigned PA's on the SF Chief and the connecting TX services (Calif. Special) to HOU and FTW (the DAL cars went on 111/112 for the last 32 miles, pulled by E's and F's) and got good service from them.--lasted until the trains came off in 1968-71.

T&NO (SP lines east of ELP) had a whole fleet of them, and they held down the Sunset, Argonaut, Sunbeam, Hustler and most of the other schedules after dieselization east of ELP.

And don't forget Cotton Belt's 2 PAs, painted "modified Daylight"--silver roof--that went along with the only F unit (FP7) on an SP-owned property painted Daylight (well, actually, also "modified Daylight")--that was their entire streamlined pax fleet, the rest were boiler-equipped RS3's. Pulled HW's and Pullman/Bradleys also painted "modified daylight"--the reflective silver roof really helped the A/C.

[coalminer3]

IIRC, New Haven ran DL109s in dual service (psr by day; frt at night)

Also, let's not forget E-L running PAs in freight service.


work safe

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

PRR and UP both regeared their PA's when they assigned them to freight service. The more robust GE electrical system may be the reason why PA's were better suited for secondary and local passenger trains and freight service.

Did any other roads operate PA's in suburban service besides Erie/EL?

[passengerfan]

Probably the hottest schedule the PA's were assigned to was the Santa Fe Fast Mail. In this service the units were more often then not making up time something the units proved to be excellent at. This train carried a rider coach across Kansas otherwise operated sans coach betweeen Los Angeles and Chicago. With nearly every station a stop or conditional stop the Fast Mail more often than not was operating at track limits before slowing for the next station. Inspite of this and weather conditions from sub freezing to over the century mark the Alco's were the standard power assigned to this the most trying schedule on the Santa Fe and performed remarkably, they were rarely late at final destination and often as not arrived a few minutes early. Unlike Amtrak the schedules were not padded as todays trains are and the PA's performed flawlessly in this service until it ended. You can't ask much more than that or expect much more than that from any unit assigned.True the units required more maintenance but the overall performance on the Santa Fe was superb. Remember it was four ex Santa Fe units purchased by the D&H for further service. And the traction motors on the PA's required less maintenace than their EMD counterparts.

[Anonymous]

trainjunky29 (Daniel) [:)]

rdganthracite [:)]

drephpe [:)]

passengerfan [:)]

coalminer3 [:)]

csshegewisch [:)]

Thank you one and all for your good comments about Alco. [;)] I have been one of the few people who regularily defended Alco and apppreciate all the help I can get. [;)]

The 244 engine (as I have stated before) unfortunately wasn't the best engine available at the time. However the 251 was an excellent engine. But many railroad never gave Alco a second chance after the problems with the 244. The Century line of locos used the 251 and were and still are excellent locos. They are highly sought after by short lines. A short line near me owns 3 locos, one of them being an Alco. Our Canadian friends ran Alcos regularly up unto the end of the 1990s. The Century line proved to be excellent pulling locomotives and very dependable. I wish like everything that Alco was still making locos. I am not a GE fan, but yet I don't bad mouth them every few seconds either.

Guys, you are all Gentlemen in my book, thanks so very much for your help. [:D] [;)] [:)]