Need help with details

[Anonymous]

Josie, check your e-mail.
Art

[Anonymous]

Hey Art—
I'm writing like crazy and plan to have my first draft done in the next few weeks. Would you be willing to take a look and make sure I didn't commit any railroad blunders. Also, it'd be great to get you input of vocab and to make sure I didn't leave out something that should be mentioned. Unfortunatelly, I'm still in the starving artist category...all I can offer you is praise in my acknowledgements, but it should be a book that gives young people a wonderful slice of railroad history.

If you'd like to help out feel free to contact me at: [e-mail].

Thanks for all you've done—there's been so many times I've referred back to your information.

All the best,
Josie

[Anonymous]

Hi!
Yep, he lived on 4th street, I visited several times a year with my family, but my grandad, Leo died when I was about two. I have one picture of me on his lap. Sounds like he was older when you knew him.

I've heard he was a gentleman and very kind.

I'm so glad to "meet you"!

Any details about anything you'd like to share? Thanks again,
Josie

[Anonymous]

When I was in grade school I knew Leo Croonenberghs, a real gentleman, very kind to me. He lived at Fourth Avenue and Ninth Street; we lived third from the corner of Third Avenue and Tenth Street, two blocks away. I was born and grew up in Durango in an old railroad family and rode the passenger train many times between Durango and Alamosa, sometimes going on to Denver. I was in seventh grade when the "Eastern" to Alamosa quit. I remember equipment and details well, along with things told me by my grandparents and great grandparents. Narrow gauge cabooses have two double seats facing each other in the cupola. In the pre-tourist days, the conductor on the Silverton train would let us kids ride in the cupola (1880's caboose) if we knew how to watch for hot boxes and would promise to watch diligently. He would give us cocoa and cookies in the caboose and a ride on the back platform for a while if we promised not to fall off. We kids liked to ride in winter when the snow was six or eight feet deep.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by josie

Thanks for all the imput!!

Yes, I thought that Chicago's Grand Station would be the best location as well. The Burlington Ohio (I think is the name) runs into it and the CB&Q runs out, which has the express to Denver.

Thanks for the movie suggestion, I'll check it out. My character's "in" is an extremely precocious son of the engineer, who knows the train inside and out, which is how she gets around. By the end of their adventure she'll rather resemble a hobo!

Back to the coupoula, would someone have to stand on something—a chair, bunk, ? to see out or was their a ladder or something available for ease of use?

This has been amazing learning about trains. They have always been a part of my life—my grandfather was an engineer on the Rio Grande Southern, so visiting my grandmother, just of Main Street in Durango, CO always included the whistles in the background. And family life included rides on the Silverton train...but this project has really aquainted me with what he did more than I ever dreamed it would.

Thanks again for all your help.

Oh, any insight on what the eating establishments would have been like...at the station, on the train??

All the best![:D]

Josie

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to make sure i didn't miss something. You got me all excited about St. Louis, then Chicago started coming up again,

I love the pics og the St. Louis station...magnificant! I can feel a story comin on!

[Anonymous]

Josie, you're stumped?
I'm confused!
It's your story! If you like the St.Louis connection, how can it not work?
Art

[Anonymous]

Okay, I'm stumped...what about:

Railroads would often combine trains going to different destinations. ThePennsylvania would often start a train out and then divide it east of say Dayton, part going to Chi and the rest to StL. Out of St.L, a train would often split out west with cars to Omaha going one direction, Denver another, and Southern Cal yet another.

All these routes were constantly being modified as passenger traffic loads changed, or new tracks laid, or because of two companies merging or even going bankrupt.

Schedules get changed but not often.
In 1901, The Pennsy had 2 daily through trains from NYC though Dayton to St.L
No.5, Penna.Limited: Lv NYC 9:33am, Dayton3:38 am(next day), arr StL Noon.
No.21,Chi&StL Express: Lv NYC 1:55pm, Dayton 9:07am, arr StL. 6:40pm.
No.27, the StLouis Limited was not routed through Dayton, arrives in StL at 9:40pm.

In 1910, they still ran 2 daily trains through Dayton but Number 5 wasn't one of them.
No.27, The StL Limited, Lv NYC 10:55 am, Dayton 3:43am, Ar St.L 1:25pm.
No.21, Chi&St.L Express: Lv NYC 1:55pm, Dayton 8:50am, Ar St.L 6:35pm.

Will check St.L Denver schedules tomorrow.

I like the St Louis connection...[:D] so, will it work????

Thanks!
Josie

[Anonymous]

Dave, you're right about the Richmond connection which uses the old Panhandle. Didn't think to look up that route.The Panhandle was the 3rd railroad to start using the Chicago Union Depot that the Fort Wayne had built. The St.Paul (later called the Milwaukee) when it reached Chicago used the Panhandle's tracks from Western Ave to the Union Depot, and the Burlington was the last to arrive (in 1882) when it stopped using the IC depot over by the Lake.

In 1901, Train 21 left Dayton at 9:07am and arrived Richmond at 10:15am in time to get Train 19 leavingt Richmond at 11:00am and arriving Chicago Union Depot at 5:10 pm.

And if you didn't want to change cars, there was a night train with a through sleeper. Number 3's through-from-Springfield-sleeper left Dayton at 9:58pm, arrived Richmond at 11:05pm where it joined the Number 3 section up from Cincinatti that should have arrived 5 minutes earlier and then the combined train left at 11:15pm, arriving Chicago Union Depot at 7:30am.

Can't tell if Nbr 19 and Nvr 3 arrive at the north concourse using the Panhandle's own tracks or whether they use the Fort Wayne tracks into the south concourse. During the Columbian Exhibition, the Panhandle was detouring their trains onto the Fort Wayne for easier access to the Exhibition but switched back; the book on the Union Station mentions that little by little all the Panhandle trains started using the south side entrance; after all the Pennsy had acquired both lines and it must have been cheaper using the south concourse.

Schedules were basically the same in Dec 1909 although the times varied a bit and the train numbers have been rearranged..

After watching The Polar Express, where the train is BEING STEERed on ice, and watching Ocean's 12, I think that's the one where a Los Angeles SUBWAY ends at the railroad starion, and after watching a helicopter try to snatch a nuclear warhead from a European train (running underneath a catenary which conveniently disappears when ever the helicopter is in sight), I think that Josie is a bit too worried about details no movie producer is EVER concerned about.

[daveklepper]

Before the event of locomotive supplied steam heating, a steampipe running the length of the train with flexilbles "Jumper" hoses between cars, every car had a stove in it. In cabooses and most coaches, this was simply a cast iron stove that provided radiated heat in the car, and those sitting closest got very hot while those most distant got little heat. However, Pullman sleepers and other more luxurious cars had Baker heaters or something similar where the stove heated water which was circulated as hot water in radiators throughout the car. It would be difficult to tell from the outside where one does see the stove's chimney, whether the more involved system was used, but one good guide would be that most open platform cars had simply a stove and most vestibuled cars had the Baker or something similar. If my memory is correct one exception was the Colorado Midland who had Baker heaters in open-platform coaches.

I suspect the White Pass has similar heating systems in its cars. Perobably some reader knows.

Again, if your protagonist went coach instead of Sleeper, I think Dayton-PRR-Richmond-PRR-Chicago-Burlingnton-Denver may have made more sense than going through St. Louis.

The very first electric commuter cars, those built for the New Haven and New York Central around 1909, followed streetcar-subway car-interurban car practice with resistor grid electric heating.

[Anonymous]

i have on my office wall framed advertisements from the NY central during WW2. One print shows a cutaway of a caboose on a freight train. The forward-most two thirds is laid out as a common area, and shows the conductor working at a table doing a 'wheel report', which lists the origin, destination, and contents of each car in the train. the conductor is sitting on an upholstered bench that runs the length of the right side of the car and working at a table. a coal stove sits in the middle of the car at the mid point and the stove pipe runs up through the roof. a coal bucket sits next to it. two thirds of the way back is a raised observation area. on the left side is one seat facing forward directly across from one seat facing aft. the center of the raised observation area appears open, and there is a similar seating arrangement on the right side. the brakeman can sit in any of the four seats and observe the train ahead or the track behind. under the seating is an ice box area, and aft of the observation area are lockers for clothes and supplies. there is a rear facing platform outside where the second brakeman positions himself to receive hand signaled reports from observers at stations who would monitor for hot wheels, etc. this fellow is called the railroad wigwag in the advertisement. a 'running board' runs the length of the caboose on the roof. hope that is helpful.

[Anonymous]

Josie, can't help you with either question. Although I worked as a telegraph operator, it was a different craft from Operations: conductors, enginemen, etc.

But practical jokes were in short supply in a potentially lethal evironment. There were enough problems in doing the job safely without inviting the undertaker, as my Dad used to put it.. Even in the rmaintenance of large computers, involving high voltages and current supplies that could melt down a ring with your finger inside, practical jokes were a rarity. Even these forums find that humor is a nebulous thing that often backfires.

And I know absolutely nothing about the Rio Grande Southern. Every road had it's ups and downs and very few got by without the occasional bankruptcy and re-org.

Art

[Anonymous]

Art, you ARE a gem!![:)]

Was there any kinds of practical jokes that the crew would play on one another, or where they too busy working?

Also, I've heard how clean the engines were kept, at least on the bigger lines, but on the Rio Grande Southern I know that they really had to scrape to keep things going, do you know if that included letting their engines get less than spotless?

thanks,
Josie

[Anonymous]

The link below is interesting but not precisely dated. It mentions steam heat, the lack of a standard time, but no dates after 1870 so a logical dating would be the early 1870's. The railroads started using standard times in 1883 but the government didn't do anything until much later which perhaps isn't too surprising.

http://fp.uni.edu/iowahist/Frontier_Life/Railway_Guide/RailwayGuide.htm

Art

[Anonymous]

Josie, the latest TRAINS has a cover shot of the cars of Alaska's White Pass & Yukon. There are smoke jacks on the cars, one per car, but since some of these are replicas I am not sure just how the cars are actually heated.

In response to your questions, this is my take. Other frequenters of this forum, like Dave Klepper or CSSHEGEWSCH, would hopefully have additional info.

Q1: Did every passenger car have a stove in it?
If no steam heat - In the north, yes, and sometimes two.

Q2: Who lit the stove?
The rear flagman would normally do the work. With a 5 man crew – engineman, fireman, front brakeman, rear brakeman, conductor (the one in command) – the brakies get to do the dirty work.

Q3: Where did they keep the wood (coal?)
There would be a storage bin or perhaps a coalscuttle.

Q3: Would they be utilized in September (of 1905)?
My 1901 Official Guide has many advertisements for steam heat and the older 1893 edition had several so I suspect steam heat was prevalent on main line trains. Branch line trains were the last to be converted or provided with up-to-date equipment.
A quote from the ‘Chicago & Alton Railroad’ by Glendinning:
“Premier trains such as Rock Island’s ‘Rocky Mountain Limited’, the Santa Fe’s ‘California Limited’, the Pennsylvania’s ‘Pennsylvania Limited’, and trains of other roads had elevated travel by 1898 to new standards of luxury. They raised the traveling public’s expectations for both comfort and time keeping.”

Q4: How did the conductor collect tickets, punch tickets?
After the train started the conductor would collect tickets and/or fares and place what was usually called a ‘hatcheck’ on the luggage rack above the seat. This indicated the passenger had paid for passage and the passenger should carry it if he left for the diner or the smoker. These checks would be color-coded or have some printed code to indicate the destination. It was not a receipt, as the conductor would pick it up before reaching the destination indicated by the check. Sleeping cars did not require this check, as the conductor knew who occupied what.

A roundtrip ticket would get punched to indicate that part of the passage had been used. There are advertisements in the guides for ticket punches showing over 200 varieties of patterns.

Q5: Did he check everyone and then signal the engineer that he could get moving?
No, see above. Schedules were important: unload, load, and get going. Collect fares later.

Art

[Anonymous]

Man, that station is beautiful. Early this summer I'm going to be making the rounds looking at all the locations for the book. I'm looking forward to seeing the station!

Did every passenger car have a stove in it?

Who lit the stove?

Where did they keep the wood (coal?)

Would they be utilized in September (of 1905)?

How did the conductor collect tickets, punch tickets?

Did he check everyone and then signal the engineer that he could get moving?

Questions, questions, questions! Thanks for the answers![:D]

Josie

[Anonymous]

Still around but not used as a train depot. Amtrak has a 'facility' where the throat tracks to the station used to be. For info on its current re-incarnation see their website:
www.stlouisunionstation.com
Art

[Anonymous]

This summer I hope to be able to ride in a cab...

For sure I'll be poking around some of the old railroad grade and area where the book is centered. What fun!

Is the station in St Louis still around?

[gbrewer]

For some of us, it doesn't get much better than the RGS! I'll bet I am not the only one who would love to have been along on those rides.

[Anonymous]

I've been on the Rio Grande Southern several times as a passenger, and getting close to the engines was enough to get my heart a-thumping! Very powerful!

[Anonymous]

Well, the years were probably more enjoyable than terribly exciting but handing up orders to a double headed steam powered train when you have to stand just inches away from sudden mayhem is more terrifying than exciting.

Trying to figure out how to get from point A to point B was more my cup of tea.
Art

[Anonymous]

bet it was an exciting five years!

[Anonymous]

Most railroad employees are issued passes. I hired out as a telegrapher on what was the Alton Railroad, while I was growing up, and the Chicago and Alton before that. But six months before I joined, the Gulf Mobile and Ohio bought it from the Baltimore & Ohio and now those railroads, too, are fallen flags.
With no car, a pass is the only way to get from one station/depot/interlocking tower to the next assignment. But as fast as old-timers retired, those positions were abolished so there was not much future and I bailed out after five years.

Art Schlosser

[Anonymous]

Looks like the best way to go would be train #21 to St Louis and then 15 on to Denver...Unless St. Louis is a cool enough depot in which to get into some MAJOR trouble [}:)]

That's were my character will be meeting up with a character that "shows her the ropes" in railroading.

So, you had a pass? Come on, you didn't think you could let that one slide and get away with it, Art, did you?? Tell me more!

By the way, today I signed a contract with my publishing company...my first book will be hitting the stands in September (they already have the MSS in hand). They've also asked for an option to sign for the book I'm working on now.

You'll have to give me your full name spelled correctly so that I can get it straight in the acknowledgements!!![bow]

thanks again for all your help,
Josie

[Anonymous]

A slight problem: travel class, coach or first class? My pass was only good in coaches; parlor cars were off limits. Only Train 21 of the Pensylvania carried through coaches from NYC to St.Louis; the others carried just pullmans and parlor cars - all first class.

The Chicago, Burlington, & Quincy ( the Burlington to the riding public, the 'Q' to rairoaders) was the only road to reach Denver from either Chicago or St. Louis on its own tracks or those it controlled (subsidiaries).

They ran two trains each day from St.L to Denver. Train 15 (in 1910, the Overland Express) was the slow one, calling at KC en route and stopping at almost every station. Train 5 (Train 13 in 1910 , the Colorado Limited), bypassed KC and stopped at a limited number of stations, hence the Limited.

1901
Train 5: Lv StL 2:05pm, lv St.Joseph 12:20am in the morning, ar Denver 6:30pm.
Train 15: Lv StL 9:01pm, lv KC 10:40am the next day, ar Denver 7:10am the following day

!910
Train 13: Lv StL 2:15pm, lv St.Joseph 11:25pm, ar Denver 4:05pm the next day.
Train 15: Lv StL 9:01pm, lv KC 9:50am the next day, ar Denver 7:50am the following day.

Both trains, in both years, carried reclining chair cars for coach passengers, sleeping cars for first class,.and dining cars the entire trip.

The Missouri Pacific and Rock Island also provided through sleeper service to Denver but it was not clear if through coaches were in the consists but neither route was as direct as the Burlington.

St Louis Union Station was a true union station, started in 1891, opened in 1894, and served all the major railroads of the day.

[Anonymous]

Art— YOU are a gem[swg][wow]

Thanks so much!

Josie

[Anonymous]

Train crews - engineman, fireman, brakemen - are all changed at division points; these occurred about every 100 to 150 miles or so in steam days (a 12-16 hour day for the employees). Pullman (sleeping car) conductors and porters stayed with the pullman car even if interchanged to another road onto another train. The Wabash was unique at St.Louis as it had trains going east and west, but a passenger would have to get off and change trains unless he was in a 'through' pullman. The road I worked for had trains west and north from St.L but all trrains and crews terminated at St.Louis. So in both St.Louis and Chicago, everybody gets off one train and on to another to continue their trip UNLESS they are traveling in a through Pullman.

Railroads would often combine trains going to different destinations. ThePennsylvania would often start a train out and then divide it east of say Dayton, part going to Chi and the rest to StL. Out of St.L, a train would often split out west with cars to Omaha going one direction, Denver another, and Southern Cal yet another.

All these routes were constantly being modified as passenger traffic loads changed, or new tracks laid, or because of two companies merging or even going bankrupt.

Schedules get changed but not often.
In 1901, The Pennsy had 2 daily through trains from NYC though Dayton to St.L
No.5, Penna.Limited: Lv NYC 9:33am, Dayton3:38 am(next day), arr StL Noon.
No.21,Chi&StL Express: Lv NYC 1:55pm, Dayton 9:07am, arr StL. 6:40pm.
No.27, the StLouis Limited was not routed through Dayton, arrives in StL at 9:40pm.

In 1910, they still ran 2 daily trains through Dayton but Number 5 wasn't one of them.
No.27, The StL Limited, Lv NYC 10:55 am, Dayton 3:43am, Ar St.L 1:25pm.
No.21, Chi&St.L Express: Lv NYC 1:55pm, Dayton 8:50am, Ar St.L 6:35pm.

Will check St.L Denver schedules tomorrow.

Art

[Anonymous]

You know, I thought I read that Chicago's Union Station was built in the 1800's...thanks for the clerification, I figured I had it wrong.

That Penn. main line from NYC to St. Louis (throught Dayton!) looks like a great option! It would simplify things, which is good.

Just to make sure I understand. The same train would run from Dayton to St. Louis (but not necessarily the same engineer/fireman?) and the my girl would change trains and then ride one train to Denver (would the engineer/fireman/conductor stay the same?).

I know these sound like strange questions, but she's going to meet the son of one of these railroaders—who will show her the ropes. I want to have him on the entire ride from St. Louis to Denver.

Do you know a basic schedule?

Thanks for all your help. You know, when I researched for my first book it was all pretty simple, my main characters were the Wright brothers and other individuals around where they were working....pretty straight forward. In dealing with trains during this time frame there were so many lines and such a variety of people that trying to get enough of a hold on it to be able to communicate accurately and clearly has proven to be quite the challenge...but the more I study the more I love about the subject!

Thanks again for all you all's help!

Josie[bow]

[Anonymous]

Josie, Dayton is on the Pennsylvania's main line from NYC to St. Louis but not on the main line to Chicago.

The latest TRAINS magazine is almost exclusively about dining on trains or eating beside the tracks. Fred Harvey had a lock on the Santa Fe RR and if you watch the "Harvey Girls", a movie with Judy Garland playing a Harvey Girl and singing 'On the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe', you can get a peak at how things were before 1900.
Harvey died in 1901 but his sons carried on. Harvey was in the restaurant business before he signed a contract with the Santa FE so they had restaurants in stations not served by that road. The Santa Fe arrives at Dearborn Station in Chicago and so of course it had one but there was one in Chicago's Union Station (I last ate there in 1946) and also one in the St.Louis Union Station (pictures on the internet).
If you go on the internet and search for 'Fred Harvey railroad chicago' or even just 'Fred Harvey' you will find pictures of the insides of the restaurants.

St. Louis was second only to Chicago in train departures to all points of the compass. If you need your character to ride into a station, you might consider St. Louis. Trains left daily there for destinations like KC, Denver, LA, and San Francisco.

The B&O did run trains into Chicago but the initials stood for 'Baltimore and Ohio'.

Trains will start on one company's tracks and arrive on someone else's. And then there are Special runs, sort of like the North Pole Express in the namesake movie. The interurban that used to run from Chicago north to Milwaukee was used by the Navy in 1941/1946 to ship a bunch of sailors from a school at Great Lakes to the next school on the west side of Chicago and the train ran on parts of the elevated that never sees that company's cars in normal service.

And contrary to what has been posted, Chicago's first Union Station was opened in 1881 on a site north of the present Union Station, on Canal street between Adams and Madison. It was replaced on May 16, 1925, when the new Union Station was placed in service although it was formally opened later on June 23rd.

Art