Need help with details

[Anonymous]

I'm working on a historical fiction sent in 1905-1906...and my main character is traveling cross country (Dayton/Chicago/Denver/Alamosa/Durango) via train. I want everything to be as accurate as possible and the more detail I can assimilate into my own little brain the more I can put into the book.

It's for young adults, so the more detail the more they learn in a sneaky sort of manner.

So, questions...I'm trying to figure out the Chicago Depot. From what I understand there was more than one. Trying to track down the layout via the internet has proved to be a bit tough. Any ideas?

Also, I'm trying to figure out an eating establishment at the Chicago Depot. I'm assuming there would be a coffee shop or diner, but my mind craves detail!!

I'm planning on going to the RR Museum in Golden, Colorado. They seem to have the best range of engines, both standard and narrow guage. Right now I'm working out of Ohio, so does anyone have any suggestions about a closer museum in the meantime?

Here's a wierd one—a coupoula (sp?) on a caboose...I was reading an incident about some of the workers on a train watching some excitement from the coupoula. Now, how would that work?

How do they get on top of the train? It seems like they spent a bunch of time up there. What about cinders, wouldn't they get into the eyes and you know, make the worker stumble off the edge or something? (spoken like a true clutz, which I am)

Do you know of anywhere that I could climb all over a turn-of-the-century train to get a feel for it? (Remember I mentioned delivering learning in a sneaky sort of manner, my main character gets in all kinds of trouble, but within that she'll be all over the train. I've already figured out how to give her access, so she's got the run of the train, front to back.)

So many questions....If anyone can answer any of them I would be so thankful! I've already had some great questions answered via railroadians[8)] and the book is coming together.

Thanks again[:D]

[PBenham]

I would recommend finding a copy of Arthur Dubin's book, Some Classic Trains, or the succeeding More Classic Trains. There are also old Official Guides available in select libraries, perhaps including the very months you wi***o write about. The Railroads egarly listed the accommodations their trains had available, some times in detail, on routes with competition. If they had a monopoly, well... The Guides will also tell you which stations your rider might have used in Chicago, unlike St. Louis where there was a union station. Most roads used Pullman palace cars, with open births usually OK if one was under 5'10" for a lower,which was more expensive, 5'5" for a less expensive upper birth. Neither was really comfortable. I can vouch for this, having tried to squeze my 5' 10" body into a recreation of an 1893 Pullman Palace birth. Coach riders had low back hard mohair seats, crammed tightly to maximize capacity. Recling backs, and foot rests were not to be seen until the 30s.

[jimrice4449]

From Toledo to Chicago travel would have been on the New York Central. For most of the steam era NYC arrived in Chicago at La Salle St Station. A transfer to Union Station would be required and would be done by the Parlamee (sp?) Transfer, a company whose sole purpose was to move passengers and their baggage from one Chicago depot to another. The Burlington ran the Chicago Denver express (train #1) leaving in afternoon and arriving Denver the following evening. NYC departures from Toledo would probably have been late evening w/ a late morning arrival. If you're planning amuseum visit in Colo anyway that would probably be your best bet for info as there were multiple narrow and standard guage options availble for your time period that were largely gone by WWII.
The cupola in cabooses was a "look out" station for the train crew. It permitted observation of the train for problems such as overheated bearings and derailments. Entry was from inside the caboose. In spite of it's prvelance in movies, access to the roof of a psgr train was virtually impossible except at terminals where a ladder would be used. Frieght trains were a vastly simpler problem as all frieght cars had ladders at the end and adjacent to the ladder end on the side and those cars w/ roofs had roof walks.

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much for all the info.

More questions about the top of the train. You said it's almost impossible to get on top of a passenger train...what if someone had access from the caboose? Could they get to the top from there? Also, it seems like it would be really hard to go from car to car on top of a train, is that right?

I'm currently utilizing a simulator to figure out how a steam engine works—wow! The engine model available is a 1920, am I correct to assume that the 1905 version would be even more difficult to operate?

[:I] Thanks again!

Josie

[GN-Rick]

Josie, Most passenger trains did not operate with a caboose. A mixed train-
(passenger and freight) could have possibly had one, but usually not. As
mentioned, roff access would be difficult at best. Assuming that your characters
somehow manage to get up there, you are right. It is not only hard to go from
car to car, but extraordinarily dangerous because passenger cars were not
equipped with roofwalks.
A suggestion-hopefully I don't get too flamed for it-watch the movie: "Emperor
of the North". Not for the violence, but the activities of the two main characters
could give you some ideas about riding trains in an 'unofficial' manner. The period
is a little later than you are looking for, too, but There's a pretty fair amount
of 'railroady' atmosphere to become acquainted with. Said film can also give
ideas about what kinds of trouble your protagonists can get into. I realize that
the movie really deals with hoboes riding freight trains, but I can't imagine it
not helping you in some ways. By the way, the cupola on a caboose is a raised
area on the roof with windows for the train's brakeman and conductor to ride and
watch over their train. Unless they open the windows, cinders aren't going to be a
big problem. If you have any more questions, I'm sure we all can help-and I hope
I have a little.

[jimrice4449]

it occured to me that,since most of the depots in Chicago date from the period between WWI and WWII, that the station names I gave might need revision. A Google search revealed that the predecessor to Union Station (where one would board the Burlington train for Denver) was called Grand Station prior to the 1925 opening of Union Station. I couldn't locate any prdecessor name for La Salle St Station so you might want to either go w/ that or avoid using a proper name for it

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the imput!!

Yes, I thought that Chicago's Grand Station would be the best location as well. The Burlington Ohio (I think is the name) runs into it and the CB&Q runs out, which has the express to Denver.

Thanks for the movie suggestion, I'll check it out. My character's "in" is an extremely precocious son of the engineer, who knows the train inside and out, which is how she gets around. By the end of their adventure she'll rather resemble a hobo!

Back to the coupoula, would someone have to stand on something—a chair, bunk, ? to see out or was their a ladder or something available for ease of use?

This has been amazing learning about trains. They have always been a part of my life—my grandfather was an engineer on the Rio Grande Southern, so visiting my grandmother, just of Main Street in Durango, CO always included the whistles in the background. And family life included rides on the Silverton train...but this project has really aquainted me with what he did more than I ever dreamed it would.

Thanks again for all your help.

Oh, any insight on what the eating establishments would have been like...at the station, on the train??

All the best![:D]

Josie

[TomDiehl]

Standard internal setup of a caboose with cupola is that the area below the cupola is just an aisle through the center of the car. One or both sides would be equipped with a ladder or steps of some sort recessed into the walls of what were simply storage lockers. The top of these lockers formed the benches that would allow a Brakeman to sit up there and observe the train for defects as noted above.

The other thing you may have seen that would be authentic for having people on top of the train while operating would be pretty much a thing of the past by your suggested time period, although it may be the transition period for the hand to air brake. Before air brakes, a Brakeman on a freight would have to go along on top of the cars to set the hand brakes when the train needed to slow or stop. And it would be common for these people to fall off the train and be killed doing this job. This was a little safer on passenger cars, the Brakeman could walk through the cars and set the brake on the end platform.

[TomDiehl]

This is a more modern caboose, but some of the shots show the interior, to give you a rough idea what they look like.

http://www.pbrail.org/exhibits.html

[Anonymous]

Most excellent! Maybe I'll keep her off the top till she gets on a NG...I was just thinking it would be a nice way to see the rockies for the first time. [swg]

Thanks!

Josie

[TomDiehl]

Another popular place for hobos to ride was on the top of the tender, behind the coal bunker. There was a recent discussion of this, I believe, on the Water Scooping thread on this forum. The setup on most tenders was that the coal bunker sat higher than the deck over the water tank, so they were sheltered from the wind. Some even had an overhang, so they could also be protected (somewhat) from the rain there.

The big drawback of riding here on a passenger run was if a crew member came to the front door, you were visible. This was mostly done on freights.

[jimrice4449]

Josie I don't think I ever heard of the Burlingto & Ohio. One of the interesting things about Chicago was that there weren't any RRs that ran THROUGH it (other than short terminal type RRs that tended to circle it but not go anywhere else)

[Anonymous]

[:I] Okay, got more questions...

So, cross country train travel in the early 1900's—baggage!

My father traveled cross country in the early 30's and said all he had to deal with was his carry on tote, and the baggage was checked.

Is that how it worked, kinda a pre-airport baggage arrangement...check it to your destination and then act surprised when it doesn't arrive???

Or would the passenger be responsible to collect their own luggage and transfer it to the next train?

Also, where is the luggage stored during the trip? Is there a baggage car? Where is it located on the train? Is it like the one on the movie Trading Places—anyone could walk into it and it was stacked with luggage?

Questions, questions, questions!!

Thanks for all your help!

Josie[swg]

[gbrewer]

Josie,

I think that a trip to the Colorado Railroad Museum would be a great idea. Not only do thay have standard gauge and narrow gauge locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses for you to examine, but they have a great research library and people there to help you. They also sell many books on the subject. And if you are in Denver, the main library (Western Collection) has a huge selection of books, photographs and maps on railroads.

Are you named for your grandmother? Josie Moore Crumb wrote the first (of many) books on the Rio Grande Southern.

[Anonymous]

Thanks! Right now I'm living in Ohio, but am planning on scooting out to Colorado ASAP!! Looks like I'll have to hold on lots of my questions till then. [sigh]

BUT I have my third book in the research stage too so I'll be staying outta trouble. (set in Leadville, Colorado—1880's)

My pen name is Josie, my grandfather was an engineer on the Rio Grande Southern—Leo Croonenberghs.

All the best,
Josie

[gbrewer]

Josie,

A few more comments:

For the period you are writing about, the passenger cars would have been all wood. If you look at the pictures in books, you will see that some of these cars were especially beautifully made (quite ornamental) – do have a look.

Normal major train consist was engine, head end cars (mail, express and baggage), followed by coaches, diner, sleeping cars and parlor car. Lesser trains would not have all of these. The head end stuff could be in separate cars or combined. On the narrow gauge sleeping cars were long gone by the time of interest and they never had diners.

I would not expect the head end cars to be open to passengers, especially not the mail and express.

Depending on the age of your audience, I would be very careful of terminology. It is important to call things by their correct names: the locomotive engineer runs the engine, never drives it; a locomotive is not a train (usually); at the end of the passenger car is a platform, not a porch; a sleeping car is a sleeper but never a sleeper car; &c.

Leo Croonenberghs appears numerous times in the index of Ms. Crumb’s book.

[Anonymous]

Great details! thanks[^]

My audience runs from about fifth grade up (most schools run local history in fourth grade—the teacher could read to them from the book). I've had kids in highschool read my book and love it (for that matter many adults enjoy my book as well). The next will be to the same audience. So, the termonology is vital. I want to paint the most accurate picture possible!!

I have Ms. Crumb's book...the copy my grandad bought (first edition) and it's still in the box it was mailed in(although I have spent a great deal of time in the book, just finished reading it cover to cover).

All the best,
Josie

[gbrewer]

A few more thoughts:

The Colorado Railraod Museum runs steam trains about 4 times a year. Try to be there for one (visit www.rrm.org to learn when).

The Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railraod still runs on a portion of the narrow gauge route. A ride would be a great help. So would a ride on the Durango & Silverton.

The Western History Collection has many period photos online for your examination.

[Tim Burton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl



The big drawback of riding here on a passenger run was if a crew member came to the front door, you were visible. This was mostly done on freights.

Most baggage cars did't have a front door. It was called riding in the blind, because people couldn't see them right there.

[Tim Burton]

If you are in OH, go to SteamTown in Scranton, PA or The Pennsylvania RR Museum to see live steam. I could make it to Altoona in 6 hours, where there is a great museum there. Then you could go on to Steamtown or PRR and see live steam. It'd make a great weekend trip.

[Anonymous]

Ok, so from what you're telling me there is no way she could have started out in Dayton, fell asleep and ended up in Chicago! Sigh.

[img.nr]http://us.a1.yahoofs.com/users/43530ba4z5ce71533/7bb2/__sr_/b0c2re2.jpg?phQzkEEByEd_GONu[/img.nr]

From the 1906 Official Guide.

[jimrice4449]

OK Josie, scratch New York Central. The timetable you show would be for the Erie which arrived in Chicago at Dearborn Station. Fortunately it's the oldest depot to survive to the WWII period and would have been in operation in your time frame. The baggage would be checked and carried in a baggage car and been transferred to the Burlington connection. Many trains had a combination baggage/coach in which the front third or so of the car was devoted to baggege rather than passenger carriage. Ordinarily passengers weren't allowed in the baggage car although there might have been exceptions in the case of those wanting to check on pets. Passengers (or RR employees for that matter) were NEVER allowed in the railway post office or mail cars.

[Anonymous]

Josie, Dayton is on the Pennsylvania's main line from NYC to St. Louis but not on the main line to Chicago.

The latest TRAINS magazine is almost exclusively about dining on trains or eating beside the tracks. Fred Harvey had a lock on the Santa Fe RR and if you watch the "Harvey Girls", a movie with Judy Garland playing a Harvey Girl and singing 'On the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe', you can get a peak at how things were before 1900.
Harvey died in 1901 but his sons carried on. Harvey was in the restaurant business before he signed a contract with the Santa FE so they had restaurants in stations not served by that road. The Santa Fe arrives at Dearborn Station in Chicago and so of course it had one but there was one in Chicago's Union Station (I last ate there in 1946) and also one in the St.Louis Union Station (pictures on the internet).
If you go on the internet and search for 'Fred Harvey railroad chicago' or even just 'Fred Harvey' you will find pictures of the insides of the restaurants.

St. Louis was second only to Chicago in train departures to all points of the compass. If you need your character to ride into a station, you might consider St. Louis. Trains left daily there for destinations like KC, Denver, LA, and San Francisco.

The B&O did run trains into Chicago but the initials stood for 'Baltimore and Ohio'.

Trains will start on one company's tracks and arrive on someone else's. And then there are Special runs, sort of like the North Pole Express in the namesake movie. The interurban that used to run from Chicago north to Milwaukee was used by the Navy in 1941/1946 to ship a bunch of sailors from a school at Great Lakes to the next school on the west side of Chicago and the train ran on parts of the elevated that never sees that company's cars in normal service.

And contrary to what has been posted, Chicago's first Union Station was opened in 1881 on a site north of the present Union Station, on Canal street between Adams and Madison. It was replaced on May 16, 1925, when the new Union Station was placed in service although it was formally opened later on June 23rd.

Art

[Anonymous]

You know, I thought I read that Chicago's Union Station was built in the 1800's...thanks for the clerification, I figured I had it wrong.

That Penn. main line from NYC to St. Louis (throught Dayton!) looks like a great option! It would simplify things, which is good.

Just to make sure I understand. The same train would run from Dayton to St. Louis (but not necessarily the same engineer/fireman?) and the my girl would change trains and then ride one train to Denver (would the engineer/fireman/conductor stay the same?).

I know these sound like strange questions, but she's going to meet the son of one of these railroaders—who will show her the ropes. I want to have him on the entire ride from St. Louis to Denver.

Do you know a basic schedule?

Thanks for all your help. You know, when I researched for my first book it was all pretty simple, my main characters were the Wright brothers and other individuals around where they were working....pretty straight forward. In dealing with trains during this time frame there were so many lines and such a variety of people that trying to get enough of a hold on it to be able to communicate accurately and clearly has proven to be quite the challenge...but the more I study the more I love about the subject!

Thanks again for all you all's help!

Josie[bow]

[Anonymous]

Train crews - engineman, fireman, brakemen - are all changed at division points; these occurred about every 100 to 150 miles or so in steam days (a 12-16 hour day for the employees). Pullman (sleeping car) conductors and porters stayed with the pullman car even if interchanged to another road onto another train. The Wabash was unique at St.Louis as it had trains going east and west, but a passenger would have to get off and change trains unless he was in a 'through' pullman. The road I worked for had trains west and north from St.L but all trrains and crews terminated at St.Louis. So in both St.Louis and Chicago, everybody gets off one train and on to another to continue their trip UNLESS they are traveling in a through Pullman.

Railroads would often combine trains going to different destinations. ThePennsylvania would often start a train out and then divide it east of say Dayton, part going to Chi and the rest to StL. Out of St.L, a train would often split out west with cars to Omaha going one direction, Denver another, and Southern Cal yet another.

All these routes were constantly being modified as passenger traffic loads changed, or new tracks laid, or because of two companies merging or even going bankrupt.

Schedules get changed but not often.
In 1901, The Pennsy had 2 daily through trains from NYC though Dayton to St.L
No.5, Penna.Limited: Lv NYC 9:33am, Dayton3:38 am(next day), arr StL Noon.
No.21,Chi&StL Express: Lv NYC 1:55pm, Dayton 9:07am, arr StL. 6:40pm.
No.27, the StLouis Limited was not routed through Dayton, arrives in StL at 9:40pm.

In 1910, they still ran 2 daily trains through Dayton but Number 5 wasn't one of them.
No.27, The StL Limited, Lv NYC 10:55 am, Dayton 3:43am, Ar St.L 1:25pm.
No.21, Chi&St.L Express: Lv NYC 1:55pm, Dayton 8:50am, Ar St.L 6:35pm.

Will check St.L Denver schedules tomorrow.

Art

[Anonymous]

Art— YOU are a gem[swg][wow]

Thanks so much!

Josie

[Anonymous]

A slight problem: travel class, coach or first class? My pass was only good in coaches; parlor cars were off limits. Only Train 21 of the Pensylvania carried through coaches from NYC to St.Louis; the others carried just pullmans and parlor cars - all first class.

The Chicago, Burlington, & Quincy ( the Burlington to the riding public, the 'Q' to rairoaders) was the only road to reach Denver from either Chicago or St. Louis on its own tracks or those it controlled (subsidiaries).

They ran two trains each day from St.L to Denver. Train 15 (in 1910, the Overland Express) was the slow one, calling at KC en route and stopping at almost every station. Train 5 (Train 13 in 1910 , the Colorado Limited), bypassed KC and stopped at a limited number of stations, hence the Limited.

1901
Train 5: Lv StL 2:05pm, lv St.Joseph 12:20am in the morning, ar Denver 6:30pm.
Train 15: Lv StL 9:01pm, lv KC 10:40am the next day, ar Denver 7:10am the following day

!910
Train 13: Lv StL 2:15pm, lv St.Joseph 11:25pm, ar Denver 4:05pm the next day.
Train 15: Lv StL 9:01pm, lv KC 9:50am the next day, ar Denver 7:50am the following day.

Both trains, in both years, carried reclining chair cars for coach passengers, sleeping cars for first class,.and dining cars the entire trip.

The Missouri Pacific and Rock Island also provided through sleeper service to Denver but it was not clear if through coaches were in the consists but neither route was as direct as the Burlington.

St Louis Union Station was a true union station, started in 1891, opened in 1894, and served all the major railroads of the day.

[Anonymous]

Looks like the best way to go would be train #21 to St Louis and then 15 on to Denver...Unless St. Louis is a cool enough depot in which to get into some MAJOR trouble [}:)]

That's were my character will be meeting up with a character that "shows her the ropes" in railroading.

So, you had a pass? Come on, you didn't think you could let that one slide and get away with it, Art, did you?? Tell me more!

By the way, today I signed a contract with my publishing company...my first book will be hitting the stands in September (they already have the MSS in hand). They've also asked for an option to sign for the book I'm working on now.

You'll have to give me your full name spelled correctly so that I can get it straight in the acknowledgements!!![bow]

thanks again for all your help,
Josie

[Anonymous]

Most railroad employees are issued passes. I hired out as a telegrapher on what was the Alton Railroad, while I was growing up, and the Chicago and Alton before that. But six months before I joined, the Gulf Mobile and Ohio bought it from the Baltimore & Ohio and now those railroads, too, are fallen flags.
With no car, a pass is the only way to get from one station/depot/interlocking tower to the next assignment. But as fast as old-timers retired, those positions were abolished so there was not much future and I bailed out after five years.

Art Schlosser

[Anonymous]

bet it was an exciting five years!