Wow.
To paraphrase what Samuel F. B. Morse, the inventor of the telegraph said...
"What hath Joshua Lionel Cowan wrought?" Need we say it?
Disneyland!
Flintlock76Is that Ward Kimball running the Lily Belle
Yep.
Flintlock76Mabe the insurance guys had no problem with full-size trains because it's harder for people to fall off?
I have no idea. My only guess is that maybe they were worried about kids losing fingers and/or ganging up and tipping the small trains over.
When you remember that what Walt was after was an amusement park in only the most basic definition of that term it's easy to understand why nobody understood what he had in mind. One banker famously told Walt at their first meeting that "we don't fund kiddielands" but later after seeing Disneyland under construction gave him what amounted to a blank check! It was ALL unprecedented and all accounts point to a Lionel set from the late 40's as being the catalyst.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
"Walt's big train set." I kind of guessed as much looking at the concept drawing, looks like I'm not alone in thinking that.
Is that Ward Kimball running the Lily Belle with Salvadore Dali along for the ride? I could be wrong but it kind of looks like him.
There's a great quote from Maestro Dali...
"Picasso is a Spaniard. Me too! Picasso is a genius. Me too! Picasso is a Communist. ME NEITHER! "
Mabe the insurance guys had no problem with full-size trains because it's harder for people to fall off?
Flintlock76Maybe Disneyland was Walts "12 inch to the foot" scale layout?
That's pretty much exactly what was going on. Some of the imagineers even referred to the project as "Walt's big train set". He had the Lilly Belle set up for awhile on the studio grounds so he could break her in while the trackwork was being constructed at home in the Holmby Hills:
There, he gave rides to anyone who asked, including Salvadore Dali:
And until his insurance guys stepped in and put a stop to it Disney's park would have included his backyard railroad. Somehow building full size locomotives was easier for the underwriters to swallow than the miniature.
think the guy sold newspapers first, then walked up to the camera.
Oh yeah, that poor guy with the crutches. I wondered how he lost his leg as well. Industrial accident? Vehicular accident? Going up San Juan Hill with the Rough Riders? Who knows?
But he definately doesn't appear to be old enough to be a Civil War veteran.
My mother's grandfather lost a leg building one of New York's subway lines, not the original one from 1904, but a later one. No, I don't know which one. But he carried on all right for the rest of his life.
My first thought was the Civil War..if he was 20 back then he would be 66 in the film and he dosen't appear to be that old.
Flintlock76 It's amazing! One of the posters on the "Classic Toy Trains" Forum brought this to everyone's attention, so I've simply got to pass it along. It's restored and half-tone colorized film of New York City in 1911, with added sound effects. Harbor scenes, street scenes with trolleys and antique cars (well, OK, they weren't antique at the time) some elevated action, and shots of Brooklyn Bridge traffic. I'm sure you'll find it as fascinating as I did, almost like a time machine! https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=hZ1OgQL9_Cw&feature=emb_logo
It's amazing!
One of the posters on the "Classic Toy Trains" Forum brought this to everyone's attention, so I've simply got to pass it along. It's restored and half-tone colorized film of New York City in 1911, with added sound effects. Harbor scenes, street scenes with trolleys and antique cars (well, OK, they weren't antique at the time) some elevated action, and shots of Brooklyn Bridge traffic.
I'm sure you'll find it as fascinating as I did, almost like a time machine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=hZ1OgQL9_Cw&feature=emb_logo
I wonder how the fellow with the crutches lost his leg?
Perhaps he had previously worked as a Brakeman.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Wow Becky, how do you come up with this stuff?
And don't those drawings remind you of BIG O gauge layouts? Makes you wonder.
Maybe Disneyland was Walts "12 inch to the foot" scale layout?
Wayne
Probably the earliest known drawing of what Disneyland would eventually look like is this one:
Legend has it it was drawn by Herb Ryman over a sleepless weekend as Walt chain smoked over his shoulder. It was later used by Walt as he shopped around for funding with the big banks and corporations. Note the roundhouse along the left edge. This is a refinement of the 1932 plan to build a much smaller park accross the street from the studio:
This one suggests that park visitors would have been anle to walk into the locomotive shops.
Uh-huh. I'll tell you, probably the only reason they've still got the live steam railroad is they're afraid Walt will come back from the dead and do some serious butt-kicking!
Never underestimate the revenge of a steam freak.
Flintlock76What would Walt say?
Why haven't you filled this hole yet?!?!?
Good stuff Becky, thanks a lot!
"Scrapped and cannibalized." That bloody well figures. If they could commit the sacrilege of junking the "Nautilus" submarines why would they scruple about the sidewheelers?
What would Walt say?
Flintlock76AND, if I remember correctly, this was a REAL ship, no guide-by-rails, the man in the wheelhouse was under control at all times. I can imagine a cruise on the Hudson with it. Oh boy... I wonder if it's still around?
They were built for dinner cruises around both Bay Lake (the real lake between the Contemporary Resort and Fort Wilderness) and the Seven Seas Lagoon (the shallow man made lake between the parking lot and the Magic Kingdom). There were 2: the Southern Seas and the Ports-O-Call, both "Osceola Class" with newly built walking beam engines.
There were originally a whole series of resort hotels planned for both lakes including the "Asian" which was to occupy the land where the Grand Floridian was eventually built. It's the large red roofed structure on the model:
Accross the lagoon and to the right of the Contemporary was the planned Venetian hotel:
And to the left beyond Tomorrowland you can make out the blue dome of the Persian hotel.
The Asian would have had a very strong Thai influence:
Much later, the Venetian evolved into the "Mediterranean", a Grecian style resort to rival the recently built Grand Floridian in luxury appointments:
With all these high end resorts surrounding the lakes and the planned residential community at nearby Walt Disney World Village at Lake Buena Vista it's easy to imagine both guests and residents partaking in moonlight cruises on these two major bodies of water. As for the 2 sidewheelers, legend says one of them sank while it was being refurbished and since the service for which they were intended never materialized, they were scrapped and cannibalized.
David you're amazing, you know that? I don't know what we'd do without you!
Good stuff with those Ampere shots Vince! Typical Lackawanna, no expense spared and build it to last. That's why it was so sad to see what became of it in that 1991 video I mentioned. In a way it reminded me of a Roman ruin, but without the dignity.
Well, what are you gonna do?
I need to add to my posting on where New York City streetcars ran underground. In addition to the three important locations I discussed, every major crosstown Bronx street that crossed the Grand Concourse north of 149th Street, except for Fordham Road which had a level stop-light-controlled crossing, tunneled under the GC for through traffic, and the serveral Xs (exect Fordham - 207th Street) the Z, and the C all ran under the Grand Concourse. After The Bronx IND line under the Grand Concourse opened, one could transfer between the C. CC, and later the D subway trains to the crosstown streetcars without going outside, for an additional nickle, In some cases the streetcar station was under the subway. Signes: "Down to surface cars"
The New York and Harlem's 4th and Madison line went directly from horsecar to conduit electric, without the cable intermediate step. Cable was installed on the lowest portion of that line, which was shared with the Third Avenue line, the second to have cable following Lenox Avenue.
It's quite remarkable what we have put together here over the years at Classic.
I think we should all take a moment to really see what we have built and take a bow. Amazing. Superb job to all. Take a bow.
Ampere
Penny Trains Flintlock76 I'm trying to remember back 40+ years but I think Disney World in Orlando had something similar back in 1975. The Southern Seas: Here she is passing one of the Magic Kingdom ferries:
Flintlock76 I'm trying to remember back 40+ years but I think Disney World in Orlando had something similar back in 1975.
The Southern Seas:
Here she is passing one of the Magic Kingdom ferries:
That's it! That's the one! Good job Becky! You know, I think we should call you the "Dave Klepper of Disney World," as in if you don't know about something Disney-related it never happened to begin with or was never there.
Southern Seas doesn't have the fine lines of Rosedale, but it's still a good loking ship. Impressed the hell out of me, let me tell you! I just had to get a ride on her.
AND, if I remember correctly, this was a REAL ship, no guide-by-rails, the man in the wheelhouse was under control at all times.
I can imagine a cruise on the Hudson with it. Oh boy...
I wonder if it's still around?
That classic double-end ferry's pretty cool too, all it needs for perfection is a different paint job and "Erie" or "Lackawanna" on the side! Maybe "Jersey Central Lines?"
Thanks so much, now I don't have to go in the attic and fight off the attic monsters to find those Disney World slides.
Disney Jungle Cruise boat has trouble
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Flintlock76I'm trying to remember back 40+ years but I think Disney World in Orlando had something similar back in 1975.
Miningman And here I thought it was Tip Top Tailors .. still a big deal up here in Canada coast to coast. Their big factory where they made the men's clothing was in Burlington right alongside the tracks with its own sidings of course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ1OgQL9_Cw&t=3m7s http://stocktonschool.blogspot.com/2013/01/ward-baking-company.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ1OgQL9_Cw&t=3m7s http://stocktonschool.blogspot.com/2013/01/ward-baking-company.html
Interesting! I clicked on that "Stockton School" link and what pops up? The Ampere section of East Orange!
The Montclair Branch of NJ Transit runs through there although the Ampere station no longer exists. Few rider pick-ups and drop-offs plus deterioration of the facilities led to it's being demolished in 1995.
I've got a "Head-end ride" video of the Montclair Branch from 1991, and let me tell you, the whole branch was so deteriorated and scary looking I'm tempted to watch the video with a .45 automatic on the end table!
Anyway, here's the Ampere station story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere_station
Ship-to-ship collisions weren't uncommon in crowded harbor waters back in those days. Luckily for Rosedale's passengers the ship settled on a sandbar. They couldn't wade to shore, they just had to be patient to be taken off.
I've always thought that the Rosedale/Oregon 'incident' should have been the subject of a song, like a good-hearted version of Chapin's "40,000 pounds of bananas" ... I suggest "It was Not So Sad when the Not-So-Great Ship Went Down" with the appropriate tune.
Note what Hearst did with the Journal after Pulitzer ... read the sensationalized account above the picture, with the horror story about the Elevated suicide next to it, and then go down and read the far better actual journalism at the bottom of the page.
New York's cable lines were converted to conduit using the existing cable conduit - under traffic! This at a time when cable cars ran on very short headways. New York cable systems use a duplicate cable system with two cables in the same slot with a grip that could grab either cable.
Streetcars were underground, essentially in subways, in New Tork Xity, in these places:
Ramps 32-33Strett to 41st - 42ns Atreet on Park Avenue South, formerly 4th Avenue, New York and Harlem Raiload, steam to the opening of the oroiginal Grand Centrql Depot, and the restriction of steam only ro north of 42nd Street around 1991, someone else can supply the exact date. New Haven trains contninth to be hauled by hoses south to the 29th Streete depot for a few more years. Part of the original street railway, oeifinally an opwn xur, a subway wiht two stations for horsecaars unril wlwxreidiws vy rhw Nssfdopol,ifn Railway aound 1899-1001 with the counduit system , like all Manhattan streetcar lines. Owned outright by the General Motor;s owned New York Railways after 1934, but operated as part of that "Green Lines" system before then. The fiirst major conversion of a north-south Mahattan streetcar line to buses in December 1935. Tunnel now the Park Avenue South Vehicular Tunnel, clearances for private cars and taxis only, northern ramp moved one-block south. You can ride a taxi or drive a private cae through and see the change in cncrete where stations were located.
Adjacent to the existing Delancey and Essex Street subway stop, and visible from the right side of eastbound J, M, and Z trains before the emerge from the portal and cross the Williamsbug Bridge. Was the Manhattan Terminal for four or five Brooklyln steetar lines that crossed the bridge. In service until earlyl 1948, with no bus replacement for the streetcar service.
Simiklarly, and lasr used in 1957 for New York State's last streetar line, at 2md Avenue 59th-60th Streets, for streetcars crossing the Queensboro Bridge. See the thread on the Trains Transit Forum.
The underground
Great film editing and a great YouTube channel as well.
Apollo 16 mission at 4K, 60fps, everything looks so "unreal":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az9nFrnCK60
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Thank You for Posting it!!
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