Mike adds this:
Kipling reminds me of Ellie Mae Clampett, who when asked if she liked Kipling said, "I don't know, I ain't never kippled."
Great story about Colonel Dunn! Thanks NDG!
As an old military man I love stories like this!
Colonel Dunn must have been quite a soldier. Imagine, someone from "The Colonies," for lack of a better term, getting command of a British regular army regiment.
Yes thats the way it happened. On top of all that there was an enourmous amount of switching, cars on, cars off. A miracle pulled off every night in Buffalo with a plethora of switch moves. There was a thread on this about a year ago and Classic Trains magazine had a great feature on all the moves made in Buffalo. The Century's only stop was in Buffalo, crew change and engine check, fuel and water. The Century did by-pass the electrics in Cleveland. Many times due to wrecks and blockages the great steel fleet took the CASO, including the Century.
When you think about it, the engines needed for a NYC passenger train from GCT to Chicago via Detroit: electric from GCT to Harmon, NYC steam Harmon-Niagara frontier, CASO steam Niagara-Windsor, NYC/MC electric Windsor-Detroit, NYC/MC steam Detroit-Chicago. Even going thru Cleveland, while they did not need a Canadian steam leg, they still had the steam-electric-steam changes in Cleveland. I think the 20th Century took the Beltline around Cleveland.
Stopped in Black Rock, New York after crossing from Fort Erie, Ontario on the International Bridge. Soon it will head to Central Station Buffalo where engine will come off and be replaced by New York Central power. Automobiles date this scene as late 1940's early 1950's. 2465 was assigned 1948-1953.
Duh! You're right. I was having a world class brain fart...
Steam would not operate through the tunnels, rather they are hauled through by the electrics. Also steam would normally terminate at the Michigan Central Station and captive in Canada steam would await in Windsor, while the tunnel electrics hauled the trains through the tunnels.
Detroit River Tunnel
The Detroit River Tunnel Company (controlled by New York Central), opened tenders in March 1906 (and dredging began in October), to tunnel under the Border. The year before, four MCRR ferryboats were handling 1000 cars per day between Canada and the USA. The majority of these trains were NYCL which operated over the CASO between Windsor and Niagara Falls/Fort Erie. The tunnel was completed July 1,1910, and the first official trip was on July 26th. By September 15th all freight, and by October 16th. all passenger trains were using it except for the local Detroit-St.Thomas MCR train which continued using the old waterfront station until December 17th. The new station opened in April 1911. The ferries ceased to operate, were laid up until 1924, stripped of boilers, engines etc. and sold as pulpwood barges for use at Port Arthur.
Old Time Trains Archives
The tunnel operation was 600V DC 3rd rail electric from the beginning, unlike its earlier neighbour at Sarnia which struggled along with steam locomotives and a resulting number of deaths. The original locomotives were six 100 ton steeple-cabs rated at 51,590 t.e. built by ALCO-GE in 1909. Four 123 ton locos were added in 1914 and two 125 ton in 1927. Ten second-hand locos from other NYC operations came along in later years. The grade is 2.0% westward and 1.6% eastward.
Locomotive Article 1909
7505 with passenger train at the Michigan Central station in Detroit.
Midland Mike-- yes crews and locos were changed at the Niagara Frontier. There was an arraignment for a sort of 'no man's land' where locomotives from each side could enter the yards, even be serviced and turned. Arraignments could be made for run through power, usually special trains. Same goes for Wabash and Pere Marquette.
The TH&B, NYC and CPR had pooled power covering 1/3 of the year each but the same rules applied.
Would T1's have a problem with the grade coming out of the Detroit River Tunnel into Michigan Central Station?
Were the engines essentially always changed on trains handed off between NYC and CASO at the Niagara frontier?
Miningman If a Niagara was run on the CASO it would have to go right thru downtown Niagara Falls, Ontario, street running and also skirt by the Falls.. there is no way someone didn't take a picture!
If a Niagara was run on the CASO it would have to go right thru downtown Niagara Falls, Ontario, street running and also skirt by the Falls.. there is no way someone didn't take a picture!
Wow. OK, if that was the case it would have been pretty conspicuous.
Unless they ran it at say, 2:00 AM when no-one was looking?
THEN you would have needed someone like O. Winston Link with a battery of flashguns wired up and ready to "rock n' roll!"
No Niagaras on the CASO? Probably not, but you never know, it might have happened but there was no-one there with a camera to catch it.
Niagaras ran on the NYC's West Shore to Weekawken from time to time but assuredly it was a very rare occurance.
On the West Shore in the late steam era it was mostly Pacifics, Mohawks, and every once in a while a Hudson.
Have never come across any account of a Niagara running on the CASO. I think there would be no problem with the tunnel from Detroit with the Niagaras designed for clearances or with any of the bridges over to Buffalo. There were also several track pans on the CASO some installed as late as 1952. Likely the attentive and tight maintenance scheduling on them would cause some problems. Also lines of Hudsons became available shortly after the war and St. Thomas handled those easily right down to rebuild and outshopping.
Still you would think they would give one a try out between Buffalo and Detroit.
Then the Niagara would be tens of feet away from its namesake as it rolled thru Falls View. In some multiverse that happened.
The Central and Kiefer could have bought the whole darn fleet of Pennsys T1's for peanuts and that after most of the bugs were worked out. Now that would have made railroad history. Cannot think of a better engineered track for them with no grades and very few curves, those that existed were large sweeping gentle things of superb design.
Again, in some multiverse this did occur too.
In fact there could well be my counterpart typing away on the Forum that in some multiverse a Niagara never ran on the CASO and the Central never bought Pennsys fleet and sent them to the scrap lines. Imagine that!
No discussion of prewar steam on the CASO could be complete without wanswheel's post on Friday, July 7th, 2017, at 11:52am in this thread:
http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/p/263782/2977186.aspx
There had to have been at least some use of the high-speed MC locomotives in the 'experimental' period that produced the LS&MS Prairies, too.
In the time since that ancient history we've also learned a tad more about why there were never divided-drives in the CASO's history after WWII. Kiefer was waiting for PRR to fix some of the fehlern on the T1 before actually spending money on the 'vastly improved' C1a, and during that period was precisely when the Niagara evolved into clearly enough locomotive for any New York Central purpose. What might have been interesting would be a Canadian-built analogue of a Niagara for regular service ... I suspect there are reasons this wouldn't have flown by the time it would have become possible, even if steam had persisted north of the borders.
2nd picture down (from above^) along Fallsview actually does skirt the Falls. Now the site of Fallsview Casino, a very glitzy place.
This pic below is not the CASO but its direct relative the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo, the TH&B, providing service and connections to those three cities and a number of branches.
Great pic of J1d Hudson 502 on the turntable in Hamilton TH&B Hunter St. Roundhouse. Of course the roundhouse is now gone and CP runs the place. All traces of NYC/TH&B are gone.
502 (ex NYC 5313) Hamilton 12/1950 Dick George
CPR Passenger Service Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo, New York. CPR NYC TH&B steam, diesel and RDC era in Canada and USA.
The New York Central was not all glitz and glamour!
Canada Southern
MCRR 8131 CS Division. Niagara Falls, NY Joseph Testagrose Collection
MCRR 8415 with lots of headend traffic. Posing at Falls View, ON Joseph Testagrose Collection
MCRR 7560 2-8-0 one of 14 (7554-7567) built by MLW 30786 1905
MCRR 8412 MLW 30794 1905 Bulders photo Q-19
NYCL 8590 (one of two engine order 8590-8591) MLW 46252 1909 Note addition of sub-lettering for MCRR CASO Division.
Michigan Central (Canada Southern Div.) 7630 Victoria Yard, Fort Erie, Ontario 5/24/1936 Bud Laws Collection
H-7-b 2-8-2 New York Central Lines Michigan Central 7914 across the border in Niagara Falls, NewYork. July 13, 1936 Bud Laws Collection
7942 with freight at Suspension Bridge, New York. Bud Laws Collection
NYC 1291 and sister 1290 were the last two remaining engines built at the Michigan Central erecting shop in St.Thomasand lasted until the end of steam working the branch. Locomotives were built in Canada to avoid paying duty. Oil Springs, Ont. May 21, 1956 Arthur B. Johnson
NYC 7191 along with sister 7190 were only two 0-10-0's built in Canada (MLW April 1909) for a US road. These engines along with a third Brooks built 0-10-0 (below) worked in Windsor, Ontario the first hump yard in Canada.It is likely two engines were all that was required for the hump at one time with the third being a relief engine thus at times one would be available to run elsewhere. Shown here at Comber the end of a short branch. March 11,1946
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