Pre WWII CASO steam

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Pre WWII CASO steam
Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 01, 2019 2:05 PM

The New York Central was not all glitz and glamour! 

Canada Southern 

MCRR 8131 CS Division. Niagara Falls, NY Joseph Testagrose Collection

MCRR 8415 with lots of headend traffic. Posing at Falls View, ON Joseph Testagrose Collection

MCRR 7560 2-8-0 one of 14 (7554-7567) built by MLW 30786 1905 

MCRR 8412 MLW 30794 1905 Bulders photo Q-19

NYCL 8590 (one of two engine order 8590-8591) MLW 46252 1909 
Note addition of sub-lettering for MCRR CASO Division. 

Michigan Central (Canada Southern Div.) 7630 Victoria Yard, Fort Erie, Ontario 5/24/1936 Bud Laws Collection 

H-7-b 2-8-2 New York Central Lines Michigan Central 7914 across the border in Niagara Falls, NewYork. 
July 13, 1936 Bud Laws Collection 

7942 with freight at Suspension Bridge, New York. Bud Laws Collection

NYC 1291 and sister 1290 were the last two remaining engines built at the Michigan Central erecting shop in St.Thomas
and lasted until the end of steam working the branch. Locomotives were built in Canada to avoid paying duty. 
Oil Springs, Ont. May 21, 1956 Arthur B. Johnson 

NYC 7191 along with sister 7190 were only two 0-10-0's built in Canada (MLW April 1909) for a US road. 
These engines along with a third Brooks built 0-10-0 (below) worked in Windsor, Ontario the first hump yard in Canada.
It is likely two engines were all that was required for the hump at one time with the third being a relief engine thus at times one would be available to run elsewhere. Shown here at Comber the end of a short branch. March 11,1946

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 01, 2019 2:35 PM

2nd picture down (from above^) along Fallsview actually does skirt the Falls. Now the site of Fallsview Casino, a very glitzy place.

This pic below is not the CASO but its direct relative the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo, the TH&B, providing service and connections to those three cities and a number of branches. 

Great pic of J1d Hudson 502 on the turntable in Hamilton TH&B Hunter St. Roundhouse. Of course the roundhouse is now gone and CP runs the place. All traces of NYC/TH&B are gone. 

502 (ex NYC 5313) Hamilton 12/1950 Dick George 


CPR Passenger Service Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo, New York. 
CPR NYC TH&B steam, diesel and RDC era in Canada and USA.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 01, 2019 6:42 PM

No discussion of prewar steam on the CASO could be complete without wanswheel's post on Friday, July 7th, 2017, at 11:52am in this thread:

http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/p/263782/2977186.aspx

There had to have been at least some use of the high-speed MC locomotives in the 'experimental' period that produced the LS&MS Prairies, too.

In the time since that ancient history we've also learned a tad more about why there were never divided-drives in the CASO's history after WWII.  Kiefer was waiting for PRR to fix some of the fehlern on the T1 before actually spending money on the 'vastly improved' C1a, and during that period was precisely when the Niagara evolved into clearly enough locomotive for any New York Central purpose.  What might have been interesting would be a Canadian-built analogue of a Niagara for regular service ... I suspect there are reasons this wouldn't have flown by the time it would have become possible, even if steam had persisted north of the borders.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 01, 2019 8:02 PM

Have never come across any account of a Niagara running on the CASO. I think there would be no problem with the tunnel from Detroit with the Niagaras designed for clearances or with any of the bridges over to Buffalo. There were also several track pans on the CASO some installed as late as 1952. Likely the attentive and tight maintenance scheduling on them would cause some problems. Also lines of Hudsons became available shortly after the war and St. Thomas handled those easily right down to rebuild and outshopping. 

Still you would think they would give one a try out between Buffalo and Detroit. 

Then the Niagara would be tens of feet away from its namesake as it rolled thru Falls View. In some multiverse that happened.

The Central and Kiefer could have bought the whole darn fleet of Pennsys T1's for peanuts and that after most of the bugs were worked out. Now that would have made railroad history. Cannot think of a better engineered track for them with no grades and very few curves, those that existed were large sweeping gentle things of superb design.

Again, in some multiverse this did occur too. 

In fact there could well be my counterpart typing away on the Forum that in some multiverse a Niagara never ran on the CASO and the Central never bought Pennsys fleet and sent them to the scrap lines. Imagine that!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, September 01, 2019 8:38 PM

No Niagaras on the CASO?  Probably not, but you never know, it might  have happened but there was no-one there with a camera to catch it.

Niagaras ran on the NYC's West Shore to Weekawken from time to time but assuredly it was a very rare  occurance.  

On the West Shore in the late steam era it was mostly Pacifics, Mohawks, and every once in a while a Hudson. 

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 01, 2019 9:12 PM

If a Niagara was run on the CASO it would have to go right thru downtown Niagara Falls, Ontario, street running and also skirt by the Falls.. there is no way someone didn't take a picture! 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, September 01, 2019 10:09 PM

Miningman

If a Niagara was run on the CASO it would have to go right thru downtown Niagara Falls, Ontario, street running and also skirt by the Falls.. there is no way someone didn't take a picture! 

 

Wow.  OK, if that was the case it would have been pretty conspicuous. Embarrassed

Unless they ran it at say, 2:00 AM when no-one was looking?  Whistling

THEN you would have needed someone like O. Winston Link with a battery of flashguns wired up and ready to "rock n' roll!"

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, September 01, 2019 11:02 PM

Were the engines essentially always changed on trains handed off between NYC and CASO at the Niagara frontier?

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, September 02, 2019 1:49 PM

Would T1's have a problem with the grade coming out of the Detroit River Tunnel into Michigan Central Station?

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, September 02, 2019 2:32 PM

Steam would not operate through the tunnels, rather they are hauled through by the electrics. Also steam would normally terminate at the Michigan Central Station and captive in Canada steam would await in Windsor, while the tunnel electrics hauled the trains through the tunnels.

Detroit River Tunnel

The Detroit River Tunnel Company (controlled by New York Central), opened tenders in March 1906 (and dredging began in October), to tunnel under the Border. The year before, four MCRR ferryboats were handling 1000 cars per day between Canada and the USA. The majority of these trains were NYCL which operated over the CASO between Windsor and Niagara Falls/Fort Erie. The tunnel was completed July 1,1910, and the first official trip was on July 26th. By September 15th all freight, and by October 16th. all passenger trains were using it except for the local Detroit-St.Thomas MCR train which continued using the old waterfront station until December 17th. The new station opened in April 1911. The ferries ceased to operate, were laid up until 1924, stripped of boilers, engines etc. and sold as pulpwood barges for use at Port Arthur.

 


Old Time Trains Archives 

The tunnel operation was 600V DC 3rd rail electric from the beginning, unlike its earlier neighbour at Sarnia which struggled along with steam locomotives and a resulting number of deaths. The original locomotives were six 100 ton steeple-cabs rated at 51,590 t.e. built by ALCO-GE in 1909. Four 123 ton locos were added in 1914 and two 125 ton in 1927. Ten second-hand locos from other NYC operations came along in later years. The grade is 2.0% westward and 1.6% eastward.

Locomotive Article 1909 

 

7505 with passenger train at the Michigan Central station in Detroit.

Midland Mike-- yes crews and locos were changed at the Niagara Frontier. There was an arraignment for a sort of 'no man's land' where locomotives from each side could enter the yards, even be serviced and turned. Arraignments could be made for run through power, usually special trains. Same goes for Wabash and Pere Marquette. 

The TH&B, NYC and CPR had pooled power covering 1/3 of the year each but the same rules applied.

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, September 02, 2019 2:46 PM

Duh!  You're right.  I was having a world class brain fart...

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, September 02, 2019 6:28 PM

Stopped in Black Rock, New York after crossing from Fort Erie, Ontario on the International Bridge. 
Soon it will head to Central Station Buffalo where engine will come off and be replaced by New York Central power. 
Automobiles date this scene as late 1940's early 1950's. 2465 was assigned 1948-1953. 

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, September 02, 2019 9:54 PM

When you think about it, the engines needed for a NYC passenger train from GCT to Chicago via Detroit: electric from GCT to Harmon, NYC steam Harmon-Niagara frontier, CASO steam Niagara-Windsor, NYC/MC electric Windsor-Detroit, NYC/MC steam Detroit-Chicago.  Even going thru Cleveland, while they did not need a Canadian steam leg, they still had the steam-electric-steam changes in Cleveland.  I think the 20th Century took the Beltline around Cleveland.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, September 02, 2019 10:47 PM

Yes thats the way it happened. On top of all that there was an enourmous amount of switching, cars on, cars off. A miracle pulled off every night in Buffalo with a plethora of switch moves. There was a thread on this about a year ago and Classic Trains magazine had a great feature on all the moves made in Buffalo. The Century's only stop was in Buffalo, crew change and engine check, fuel and water. The Century did by-pass the electrics in Cleveland. Many times due to wrecks and blockages the great steel fleet took the CASO, including the Century. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, September 06, 2019 3:59 PM

Great story about Colonel Dunn!  Thanks NDG!

As an old military man I love stories like this!

Colonel Dunn must have been quite a soldier.  Imagine, someone from "The Colonies," for lack of a better term, getting command of a British regular army regiment.  

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Friday, September 06, 2019 4:54 PM
You are Welcome.
 
The Internet brings so much to so many in the late years of our lives.
 
Kipling wrote about a Soldier's Life, often.
 
 
 
Many in our Families ' Served '.
 
Many in our Families lost.
 
One chap returned from Burma, wounded in body, more so in mind.
 
His wife served tea in the afternoon, right to his end.
 
They call it ' Poppy Day', here.
 
Thank You, to all!
 
Also By Kipling.
 

 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, September 07, 2019 10:30 AM
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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 15, 2019 2:04 PM
Excerpt from The Railroad in Literature by Frank P. Donovan, Jr. (1940)
 
Although no other continent has the quantity of railway fiction found in North America, some exceptionally good stories come from the pens of foreign authors. Because of the variety of languages, only a small portion is known to Americans and most of this has been translated. But regardless of the inaccessibility it must not be forgotten that our country owes much, directly and indirectly, to the world at large. To omit the outstanding writers of others lands, a few of whom are widely read on this continent, would give us a one-sided view of railway literature. 
 
The fiction of England differs vastly from that found in America. In Great Britain the railways were built after the country had been densely populated. Owing to rigid inspection at the outset the reckless devil-may-care spirit so characteristic of the early railroads in this country had little opportunity to assert itself abroad. There was in the British Isles, to be sure, a Railway Mania, exuberant and colorful, yet more restrained than in the United States. The towering mountains, great expanses of land, hostile Indians, and rugged frontiersmen inextricably woven into our own railroad fiction never existed in England. Yet the average Englishman is very much interested in railways, possibly more so than most Americans. But his reading about them is of the more technical or general type. The British Railway Magazine in many respects resembles the Railroad Magazine of this country, although the former contains practically no fiction. 
 
Surprising to most Americans, one of the finest railroad short stories ever published was written by an Englishman about the Boston and Albany in our own country. It was during Kipling's four year stay in Vermont that he completed the world-famous ".007". Rudyard Kipling was born in Bombay, December 30, 1865, and received his education at the United Service College, Westward Ho, North Devon, England. Incidentally, this institution served as the setting for his schoolboy novel  Stalky and Co. At the age of 17 he returned to India to become sub-editor of the Lahore Civil and Military Gazette, and at the age of 21 completed his Departmental Ditties—a book of light satirical verse. From 1887 to 1889 Kipling travelled through India, China, Japan, and America taking notes wherever he went and later incorporating them into a two-volume work entitled From Sea to Sea. While in London he met Wolcott Balestier,  a young American author and publisher who collaborated with him in writing The Naulahka. Kipling later married Wolcott's sister, Caroline Starr Balestier and for some time lived in Dummerston, Vermont, just across the Brattleboro line.  While in "The Green Mountain State" he wrote two Jungle Books, Captains Courageous and some short stories in The Day's Work. Had it not been for an argument with a near relative over a boundary dispute, a case which eventually went to court and made the feud public, Kipling most likely would never have left the country. As it was he hurriedly moved back to England in August 1896. 
 
Kipling is almost as well known for his poetry as for his prose. Such poems of his as "Recessional," "Gunga Din" and "On the Road to Mandalay" are universally known and deserve a permanent place in world literature. Incidentally, he is the author of "The King" with its oft quoted lines—
Romance! the season-tickets mourn,
He never ran to catch his train, 
But passed with coach and guard and horn
And left the local—late again 
Confound Romance! . . . And all unseen 
Romance brought up the nine-fifteen.
 
Because of his virile, forthright poetry, his masterly short stories and romantic fiction, Kipling was awarded the Nobel prize for literature in 1907. He died in London on January 18, 1936. 
 
In Kim, one of his longer novels which, by the way, gives an excellent picture of Indian life, there are several pages describing the ordeals of Asiatic railway travel. The Naulahka opens with a short sketch of western railroading in the United States although the bulk of the book has its setting in India. But for a graphic picture of a record run from coast to coast by a railroad official, Kipling's Captains Courageous is more than of passing interest. Indeed, to insure the utmost accuracy he wrote to a railway executive of his acquaintance to plan the route, junction points and running time of the special. When the story was finished another official was so pleased with the yarn that he arranged to beat the schedule of Kipling's train over the identical route and succeeded in doing so.
 
Kipling's greatest contribution to railroad literature, however, is his above mentioned ".007". Based on personification in which the locomotives tell their story, this has become one of the most popular of this type of story ever written. It has a real flavor of the rail combined with accurate observation (even though his nomenclature betrays a distinctly English influence) and correct details. Still it is not flawless, and for the benefit of the reader who thinks it too highly extolled I shall quote a paragraph from a "Section Boss" in The Argonaut for August 16, 1897: 
 
"Mr. Kipling is a keen observer," he declares, "and writes pretty good American for an outsider, but if he had spent a night in a roundhouse with his ears open he would never have used 'loco' for locomotive, or have omitted the familiar 'engine' altogether; he would not have said 'bogie' when he meant 'truck'; he would not have allowed a parlor-car to be hitched to a suburban commuter's train 'ahead of the caboose'; he would not have made his engines speak of themselves as 'Americans' (in the sense of pattern), or painted his hero green with a red 'buffer-bar.'" "
 
"I suppose it's all right to strengthen a situation by omitting the guard-rail from an eighty foot bridge—it gives a pleasant, breezy, Western, get-there-or bust, [******]-on-the-safety-valve movement, and maybe it's good fiction to bring about the catastrophe with a hundred-pound piglet who 'rolled under the pilot' and thereby caused the 'bogies' to lift; but on plain, every-day railroads there is a guard rail at every open culvert, and even the illustrations to Mr. Kipling's story admit cow-catchers."
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

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