Some Very Cool RR Posters

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 8:44 PM

M636C
I have "Die Baureihe 61 und der Henschel-Wegmann-Zug" by Alfred Gottwaldt, published by Eisenbahn-Kurier in 2005.

I was lucky to find a copy of that book, although I have not worked through to translate Gottwaldt's sometimes interesting prose. 

If I remember correctly some of the description of the retrofitted air shift device is in his larger book on streamlined steam locomotives of the Reichsbahn (Franckh, 1978, I think) and there was a brief discussion of it in a book I can't cite (but with the datum that a stable speed of 81mph was possible with bunker leading, or wasn't possible without the arrangement, I disremember which).   Nothing was said (or I didn't see it) regarding stability of the six-wheel truck leading, which leads me to believe it might have been more inherently stable in yaw with better side-bearing locations.

This is one of those things like the heavy torque struts installed on the Roosen 19 1001 motor locomotive, a modification that isn't explicitly discussed but that may be critically important to operational success. 

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 7:21 AM

Overmod
 
 
M636C
I have "Die Baureihe 61 und der Henschel-Wegmann-Zug" by Alfred Gottwaldt, published by Eisenbahn-Kurier in 2005.

 

I was lucky to find a copy of that book, although I have not worked through to translate Gottwaldt's sometimes interesting prose. 

If I remember correctly some of the description of the retrofitted air shift device is in his larger book on streamlined steam locomotives of the Reichsbahn (Franckh, 1978, I think) and there was a brief discussion of it in a book I can't cite (but with the datum that a stable speed of 81mph was possible with bunker leading, or wasn't possible without the arrangement, I disremember which).   Nothing was said (or I didn't see it) regarding stability of the six-wheel truck leading, which leads me to believe it might have been more inherently stable in yaw with better side-bearing locations.

This is one of those things like the heavy torque struts installed on the Roosen 19 1001 motor locomotive, a modification that isn't explicitly discussed but that may be critically important to operational success. 

 

 Gottwalt quotes his book on streamlined locomotives in the Literature survey in the Class 61 book (and a 1979 book of his on the Class 61 as well).

Chapter 6 of the Class 61 book quotes pretty much every item worked on on 61 001  during its entire career, and doesn't mention modifications to the truck guidance as far as I could find.

I suspect that the modifications you describe were a a proposal not actually carried out. 61 001 wasn't out of service long enough before 1939 for major modifications and after 1939, 61 002 was available to haul the extended train. Certainly after 1942 there would have been no capacity to carry out such work and the high speed trains were no longer running.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 11:00 AM

M636C
I suspect that the modifications you describe were a proposal not actually carried out.

This of course is always a possibility.  I certainly don't have any hard evidence to prove it was, although I'll keep looking the best I can to see if I can find a source.  When Firefox and AT&T get their 'stuff' together I will ask this on steam_tech -- oh rats! Now I miss Claude Bersano all over again! -- and some of the usual suspects there can shake the tree in various communities where I don't know the language well enough.  Juniatha would almost certainly know (if she is watching).  

Something else that reminded me about this was that when I took 'drafting and design' in college, my final project involved high-speed truck design with self-shifting inherent 'trail' capability, which did involve active air assist if the steering elements were to be 'locked' before physical train movement (cf. Webb's LP valve gear problems!) and I remember some reference to German air-actuated geometry shift when designing that.  (This was in the same atmosphere that taught about the German sprung-track experiments after WW1, something that is far too little discussed in my opinion).  Perhaps there was more material available in an academic engineering environment then.

The only thing I could say in partial defense was that I remembered the language in the reference, whatever it was, clearly implying the modification had been done and tested, and that the results had been real-world established.  Again of course people exaggerate sometimes; I try not to but sometimes 'fail to succeed'.  It is a very strong argument against it having been implemented that you think it did not happen -- arguments from authority not being involved, either.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 11:52 AM

I just note that a Japanese blogger uploaded some new old photos from the book "19 1001. Die Stromlinien-Schnellzuglokomotive der Deutschen Reichsbahn mit Einzelachsantrieb" quite a long time ago but these photos didn't show up on the search result before. Please follow the link if interested: 

http://2008-deep-blue.tea-nifty.com/blog/2009/10/19-1001-ek-verl.html

Speaking of the air adjustment device on 61 001, I presume the BR 06 001 and 002 also had similar components on their trailing trucks wasn't it? 

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 12:26 PM

Jones1945
Speaking of the air adjustment device on 61 001, I presume the BR 06 001 and 002 also had similar components on their trailing trucks wasn't it? 

No reason for it.  The Mammuts had comparatively ordinary tracking geometry; they were not expected to be bidirectional or run with any particular speed in reverse.

I do have my doubts about some of the detail design of that four-wheel truck, but I had some of the same questions about the PRR T1's truck ... so don't take that as any kind of design gospel!  In any case, a very simple redesign of the 'steering' of the aft part of the truck frame relative to the chassis, and the use of a good radial buffer, would solve most of the potential issues with high-speed stability; pushing the tender's front truck pivot point further up, even to the point its leading axle were physically well forward of the tender front, is another expedient that was tried to increase stability. 

All this was somewhat moot on the class 06, because from what I understand the boiler was grossly inadequate to get them to any particular speed.  This of course is a great regret because I think properly-balanced 4-8-4s or the equivalent are the best thing to run at true high speed (as opposed to Hudsons or Pacifics) and it would have been interesting to see what a de-Wagnerized firebox design (and less 'fragile' boiler steel!) might have produced in service. 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 12:27 PM

Jones1945
Speaking of the air adjustment device on 61 001, I presume the BR 06 001 and 002 also had similar components on their trailing trucks wasn't it? 

No reason for it.  The Mammuts had comparatively ordinary tracking geometry; they were not expected to be bidirectional or run with any particular speed in reverse.

I do have my doubts about some of the detail design of that four-wheel truck, but I had some of the same questions about the PRR T1's truck ... so don't take that as any kind of design gospel!  In any case, a very simple redesign of the 'steering' of the aft part of the truck frame relative to the chassis, and the use of a good radial buffer, would solve most of the potential issues with high-speed stability; pushing the tender's front truck pivot point further up, even to the point its leading axle were physically well forward of the tender front, is another expedient that was tried to increase stability. 

All this was somewhat moot on the class 06, because from what I understand the boiler capacity was grossly inadequate to get them to any particular speed.  This of course is a great regret because I think properly-balanced 4-8-4s or the equivalent are the best thing to run at true high speed (as opposed to Hudsons or Pacifics) and it would have been interesting to see what a de-Wagnerized firebox design (and less 'fragile' boiler steel!) might have produced in service. 

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 8:18 PM

Overmod

 

 
Jones1945
Speaking of the air adjustment device on 61 001, I presume the BR 06 001 and 002 also had similar components on their trailing trucks wasn't it? 

 

No reason for it.  The Mammuts had comparatively ordinary tracking geometry; they were not expected to be bidirectional or run with any particular speed in reverse.

I'm surprised that the most obvious question about bi-directional 4-6-4s has not yet been asked...

The elephant, not mammoth, in the room is 05 003.

Of course, it was only reversed once and rather permanently. But its running gear looks very much like that of 61 001.

The drawing on Douglas Self's site suggests that both trucks, like 61 001 were pivoted at the centre, which would mean that they probably remained the same for each nominated direction of travel.

Of course 05 003 was rebuilt during the later stages of WW II when it was probably needed simply because it was a serviceable locomotive, although the pulverised coal firing was replaced by conventional coal firing requiring the locomotive to be reversed.

It is worth noting that 05 003 kept its original boiler which had a large combustion chamber, intended to assist in the burning of pulverised brown coal, proved to give better performance on black coal. 05 001 and 002 were fitted with (somewhat simpler) combustion chambers when rebuilt post war.

But if modifications were needed to the leading and trailing truck pivots, surely the one time reversal of 05 003 was the time and place to do them...

Peter

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 10:09 PM

M636C
Of course, it was only reversed once and rather permanently. But its running gear looks very much like that of 61 001.

You mention this JUST as I place an order for Gottwaldt's book on the 05 class (2005) in part to see what was done dynamically for the 'reversed' high-speed engine.  You are I think correct that this would have been dramatically more important than 61 001; I don't recall any indication that 05 003 was intended to operate any more slowly than the other two (at 175km/h nominal)

The drawing on Douglas Self's site suggests that both trucks, like 61 001 were pivoted at the centre, which would mean that they probably remained the same for each nominated direction of travel.

You will laugh, but it honestly never occurred to me that the truck under 05 003's firebox would be pin-guided.  (What else it would be, I can only plead blissful ignorance...)  I presume you have seen the Eastern European dynamic analysis of the 05 running gear; they didn't study the cab-forward configuration but I bet it wouldn't be difficult to re-run the analysis for it.  (Interestingly there was a big, fat critical speed right above 200km/h in the analysis, which might give some indication why there were no attempts to better Mallard's time)

It is worth noting that 05 003 kept its original boiler which had a large combustion chamber, intended to assist in the burning of pulverised brown coal, proved to give better performance on black coal.

I'd expect it to perform better than the alternative with 'normal' Wagner firebox arrangement, almost for sure.  It is interesting to contemplate what the running gear of the class 05 could have produced with a 'good' radiant section, retaining what I think was a reasonable convection section.

But if modifications were needed to the leading and trailing truck pivots, surely the one time reversal of 05 003 was the time and place to do them...

You are certainly right, and it is indeed a bigger 'elephant in the room' than the 4-8-4s were.  It may be a while before I can figure some of this out from sources available to me.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:42 PM

Overmod
Jones1945
Speaking of the air adjustment device on 61 001, I presume the BR 06 001 and 002 also had similar components on their trailing trucks wasn't it? 

No reason for it.  The Mammuts had comparatively ordinary tracking geometry; they were not expected to be bidirectional or run with any particular speed in reverse.

That make sense, Mr. Overmod. I don't want to use the term "overly complex" but I wonder if compatibility of the trucks and comfortability of the crews were considered when the German was designing the Mammuts which were supposed to be another successful design for mass production (Although it was not the case). 

Overmod

I do have my doubts about some of the detail design of that four-wheel truck, but I had some of the same questions about the PRR T1's truck ... so don't take that as any kind of design gospel!  In any case, a very simple redesign of the 'steering' of the aft part of the truck frame relative to the chassis, and the use of a good radial buffer, would solve most of the potential issues with high-speed stability; pushing the tender's front truck pivot point further up, even to the point its leading axle were physically well forward of the tender front, is another expedient that was tried to increase stability. 

I believe that these are some of the questions the T1 Trust is looking for an answer. I am looking forward to the results if some of them will be released before it was built. The tender, when loaded, can be as heavy as 44,000 domestic cats! Many of those tenders behind the T1s were used for merely 5 - 6 years. Was there any record of abnormal worn or premature failure of the truck as well as the structure of the tender? I guess the alter of the design of the tender's truck or casting new trucks for the 90-year-old 210-F-75A tender is inevitable if the 5550 will be operating at a much higher speed than a PRR M1s or I1sa. 

Overmod

All this was somewhat moot on the class 06, because from what I understand the boiler was grossly inadequate to get them to any particular speed.  This of course is a great regret because I think properly-balanced 4-8-4s or the equivalent are the best thing to run at true high speed (as opposed to Hudsons or Pacifics) and it would have been interesting to see what a de-Wagnerized firebox design (and less 'fragile' boiler steel!) might have produced in service. 

Yes, it was such a waste of an opportunity to see how well a German-design 4-8-4s (and too many other types of steam-powered engines) could have performed. 

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Posted by M636C on Friday, June 28, 2019 11:26 PM

After saying that the running gear was similar on the 05 and 61, I thought I should give some dimensions:

Spacing, front to rear:

05001    2350+2200+2550+2550+2250+2000

61001    2350+2075+2550+2550+2475+2350

05003    2200+2275+2550+2550+2050+2200

61002    2350+2100+2550+2550+2475+3000

The coupled wheelbase is the same and the leading bogies are the same on 05001 and 61001 while the actual spacings vary. On 05003, the leading and trailing bogies are shorter than the leading bogie on 05001 but longer than the trailing bogie on 05001. Unsurprisingly, 61002 is the longest. One assumes the bogies on 05003 were limited by the space at the firebox end and the lead bogie was built the same size.

It is easy to see how 61002 was able to be rebuilt into a tender locomotive not unlike the 05.

The boilers on 05001/2 were 7000mm between tubeplates, only 200mm longer than the 01 and 03, and were able to get enough steam to make just over 200km/h. The 06 (and 45) were 7500 between tubeplates (and 100mm larger in diameter). This was a step too far and some 45s had new boilers with combustion chambers fitted.

There was a proposal to rebuild the 06s without streamlining in 1950 (Eisenbahn Kurier 10/96). Had the modified combustion chamber boiler been then available, the two 06s might have seen more use, but with more power than was needed in passenger work and poor fuel economy, they were not worth the effort.

Peter

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, June 28, 2019 11:35 PM

No Comment 05001

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 8:50 AM

Hmmmmm...

Assuming that locomotive kept its streamlining into the war years I'd imagine that swastika made a good aiming point for the pilot of a P-47 or a P-51 on a strafing run. 

Or the pilot of a Hawker "Tempest" or "Typhoon" for that matter! 

A nice, big, unmistakeable bullseye!

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, June 29, 2019 10:42 AM

It's a chilling image that's for sure.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 11:12 AM

All kidding aside, that swastika's kind of a blatant marking for a Reichsbahn locomotive, I don't recall seeing any photos of any other DR engines marked like that.  Of course, just because I haven't seen any doesn't mean there weren't any.

The Olympic rings on the tender make me believe that this engine may have been part of the 1936 Olympics showcasing of the "New Germany."  The hell of it is, by and large the showcasing was a success.  For sheer spectacle, efficiency, and excitement some Olympic historians have called the '36 Olympics "The Greatest Olympics,"  and not because they're fans of the Nazis, not by any means.  

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, June 29, 2019 11:29 AM

Flintlock76
The Olympic rings on the tender make me believe that this engine may have been part of the 1936 Olympics showcasing of the "New Germany."

I think you're exactly right.  I'm something of a 'fan' of the class 05 and I don't recall ever seeing the large swastika there, even during the 100th anniversary celebrations (where there would be political capital in touting the 'schnellste Lokomotive der Welt'.

I have to wonder if Leni Riefenstahl has this engine, as painted, in any of her contemporary film?  This would be an obvious way to get the Party emblem noticed in a documentary or newsreel.  (Meanwhile, I seem to remember folks at DR complaining about political sloganeering on their rolling stock -- certainly Eckener et al. didn't like it on dirigibles)

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 11:41 AM

I've seen the Leni Riefenstahl film "Olympia" several times and that locomotive's not in it, come to think of it there's no DR action at all in it.  There's plenty of Nazi iconography in the film but it's secondary to the story, certainly there but not the primary focus.  Giving credit where credit is due it's a spectacular documentary of the Games, still exciting to watch.  I think you can find it with a YouTube search, but it's not a quick watch, it's looooooong!   

I should add all that famous footage of Jesse Owens winning his gold medals comes from "Olympia."

Oh, yeah.  Herr Doktor Eckener hated  those swastika flags on his Zeppelins, but there was nothing he could do about it.  Not only was the swastika flag the mandatory tail marking for all German civil aircraft but since the Zeppelin Company operated with a government subsidy Eckener's hands were doubly tied. 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, June 29, 2019 12:27 PM

I have seen the locomotive in a film clip with the swastika marking on a Smithsonian Channel series... either Combat Trains or one their WWII series dealing with Nazi Germany. It's quite distinctive in the film clip, pulling into a station with a 3/4 angle shot with the locomotive coming toward the camera. 

For all the admiration of German Technology at the time just about all of it was directed at conquering, killing, ethnic cleansing, destruction, brainwashing and monuments to evil for deranged men. 

Minitrix manufactured a version painted red with with Deutsch Reichsbahn marking ( circle with the eagle) that was kinda rare. I had one and a fella from Germany, a visitor, stole it from me. Took it right out of cabinet while I was making coffee for everyone. They were long gone before I discovered it, later that evening. Perhaps 'strenge verboten in Germany! Weasel move in any case. 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, June 29, 2019 12:48 PM

Miningman
Minitrix manufactured a version painted red with with Deutsch Reichsbahn marking ( circle with the eagle) that was kinda rare. I had one and a fella from Germany, a visitor, stole it from me. Took it right out of cabinet while I was making coffee for everyone. They were long gone before I discovered it, later that evening. Perhaps 'strenge verboten in Germany! Weasel move in any case.

I'll give you my Liliput version of the locomotive (in red) if I can find it in storage.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, June 29, 2019 1:49 PM

A very generous offer. If you ever find it let me know. Do not have much HO but I do have some Liliput items, most notably a very cool multi piece Schnabel car. Perhaps the N Scale Minitrix version was very limited in numbers and availability or even desirability. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:13 PM

Miningman
...For all the admiration of German Technology at the time just about all of it was directed at conquering, killing, ethnic cleansing, destruction, brainwashing and monuments to evil for deranged men...

This sounds like a to do list of too many dictators still running amok in this "beautiful" planet. 

Miningman

Minitrix manufactured a version painted red with with Deutsch Reichsbahn marking ( circle with the eagle) that was kinda rare. I had one and a fella from Germany, a visitor, stole it from me. Took it right out of cabinet while I was making coffee for everyone. They were long gone before I discovered it, later that evening. Perhaps 'strenge verboten in Germany! Weasel move in any case. 

lol! I bet he just put it into his pocket like a pen. Are you sure he didn't steal other things from your house? CoffeeSurprise

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:36 PM

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:47 PM

Wow!  So the USAAF and the RAF didn't get it after all!  That's nice.

I see something's missing though.  Whistling

I can see whoever took the picture of the model got a little shy.  I can only speak for myself but I don't mind seeing a swastika now and then, depending on the context of the display of course.    

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 3:40 PM

Flintlock76

I see something's missing though.  Whistling

Coffee

Btw, I wish it was the PRR S1 had those 90.55 Inches tall driving wheels (in Baldwin Disc Drivers' shape). 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 4:02 PM

Oh yeah, Hitler didn't invent the swastika but he sure ruined it for everyone else!

The thing is, he wanted a symbol for the Nazi party that was simple, striking, and bold, and once you saw it you wouldn't forget it.  Mussolini had the old Roman symbol of the "Fasces,"  the Communists had the "Hammer and Sickle,"  (which I consider just as despicable in it's own right, by the way) so Adolf hit on the swastika.  He was right, once you see it you never forget it.

And that's a neat little copy of Hero of Alexandria's steam engine!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 5:05 PM

This is a nice historical review, Wayne. Since there is not an "ancient steam engine" forum, I would like to share this link here for our younger readers:

Hero of Alexandria's steam engine

https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-technology/ancient-invention-steam-engine-hero-alexandria-001467

Smile

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, June 29, 2019 5:25 PM

Overmod

 

Miningman
Minitrix manufactured a version painted red with with Deutsch Reichsbahn marking ( circle with the eagle) that was kinda rare. I had one and a fella from Germany, a visitor, stole it from me. Took it right out of cabinet while I was making coffee for everyone. They were long gone before I discovered it, later that evening. Perhaps 'strenge verboten in Germany! Weasel move in any case.

 

I'll give you my Liliput version of the locomotive (in red) if I can find it in storage.

 

I can't recall seeing a photo of the Eagle on any 05 (at least not on the nose - it may have appeared on the cabside...)

Could the Minitrix model have been an 01-10 or 03-10? The prototypes were  built a bit later than the 05, just as the E19 illustrated above had the Eagle while the otherwise similar E18 did not.

I too have the old Liliput 05, which I purchased in Hong Kong in 1986. I think it had decals for the swastika and Olympic Rings, partly because Liliput were an Austrian company, not German, and some restrictions on Nazi markings didn't apply. Since I managed to assemble a matching train for the 05, I plan to keep mine.

Peter

 

 
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, June 29, 2019 6:33 PM

M636C
I can't recall seeing a photo of the Eagle on any 05 (at least not on the nose - it may have appeared on the cabside...)

Cabside is where I remember it in pictures from Gottwaldt (I think the class 06 drawing has it there, too, with the little swastika in the wreath at the bottom diplomatically blanked out).

There was a version of the exquisite 05 003 model from Micro-Feinmechanik that has the large swastika on the (destreamlined) smoke deflectors, and a propaganda message in large Frakturschrift on the tender.  While I confess I can't imagine who would buy or commission such a paint scheme to display or to run, it's a great historical documentation of 'another' large swastika on a class 05.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Saturday, June 29, 2019 7:09 PM

Ye olde hackenkreutz was very common in Asian religeous art and still is:

Window at Chinese temple in Pattaya Thailand:

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, June 29, 2019 7:23 PM

"While I confess I can't imagine who would buy or commission such a paint scheme to display or to run"-- Overmod

Would be a big hit in Argentina! 

M636C-- Not sure since I don't have it any longer... would have to check with an old Walthers Catalogue.. Item was stolen early 90's. 

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