MiningmanSo what became of the French built gasifier locomotive. I assume this was an experimental prototype. Even if one cannot read the technical report there must be some pass/fail history to it.
There were a couple; I think one little 'proof of concept' one and then a larger one. Ever hear the expression "history is written by the victors"? -- there is your answer about its success, although it's possible to claim both that the engineering was directed toward the wrong thing (lightness and cheapness, iirc) and that the same forces that killed Chapelon's 242 A1 would apply to any other motive-power development that did not favor electrification.
My sole knowledge of this before the Internet was a couple of sentences in the Ransome-Wallis 'Encyclopedia of World Railway Locomotives', which went to press right around the time the second prototype was under construction. As such it's in the same 'boat' as fast simple articulateds were in Lionel Wiener. You cannot predict either large successful 2-6-6-x's or Challengers from what is there with any definitive certainty. I'm still waiting for Mike to look a little further in his primary sources to find out what the 'official' reasons for terminating the Fontaine-locomotive service on the CASO in 1882 are going to be; I suspect that analogous 'gotchas' will be the reason why free-piston turbines didn't fulfill their promise.
Again, one of the places the concept fails is in ease and consistency of startup. Compare the German high-pressure steam experiment of the late 1920s that couldn't be started cold without a source of high-temperature steam. A contemporary free-piston device couldn't be started without sufficient compressed air to pressurize the bounce chambers, which basically requires a pony motor; if I remember correctly, this was sized and equipped to allow 'hostling' the locomotive with it when the free-piston powerplant was shut down, although I have no idea what kind of transmission was used (probably a mechanical connection to the turbine shaft), I think at least one of the Swiss gas turbines used a similar arrangement.
Note that muffling the exhaust isn't the issue; this would not be particularly more difficult than with any other scavenged two-stroke engine (gas or diesel). It's the intake noise that's given as the primary problem on the William Patterson, and I expect it to be a primary problem almost anywhere else a comparable volume of air is drawn in with similar mass-flow cutoff and admission characteristics.
I recommend that you try this paper for general information on free-piston engine technology in the period we're discussing. There was a good report in one of the naval-architecture journals in 1957, describing what was anticipated (and giving a reasoned comparison of the free-piston powerplant with alternatives for ship propulsion, some details of which can be translated to railroad practice).
I have limited experience with core drills, but my understanding was that the principal 'component' of the noise was high-frequency screeching. The noise from free-piston engines was very-high-amplitude (and sometimes complexly-modulated) low-frequency energy, which led to an amusing and possibly apocryphal story that exposure to the experimental powerplant led to almost uncontrollable 'loosening of the bowels' in the machine spaces...
Well thank thank you for the response. There is a good potential for the future in this utilizing hydraulic free piston design and modern day micro processors.
Underground diamond drills are crazy loud because of that screeching noise you mentioned. Confined space and solid rock walls make it worse. Surface diamond drills are much larger and do not have this problem.
So what do these Railroad Oscars look like? I will propose one of them...the "Worst Merger" award should be a fine brass depiction of a cornfield meet, a second after impact. Will leave the rest up to the rest of you for suggestions.
I'll offer up the "Best Merger' award as well.....A large, say 4', carving of the "$" sign with a grouping of, say 6", peoples to the right and left of the $. The left group are railroad workers with pockets out turned and palms out while the right side is a grouping of the Monopoly fellows with top hats. Best merger award.
MiningmanSo what do these Railroad Oscars look like? I will propose one of them...the "Worst Merger" award should be a fine brass depiction of a cornfield meet, a second after impact.
The 'Worst Merger' award, years ago, was a depiction of the "Makin' Bacon" postcard with NYC and PRR scale model locomotives in the starring roles. Perhaps not fit for a community forum, but amusing.
Yikes!
Penn Central wins hands down. It's still unbelievable, the whole thing. I'm thinking once "our" generation is gone it will not be really appreciated as to what was. The Pennsy, the NYC, the merger, all of it. It will just be another failed company and a footnote.
MiningmanPenn Central wins hands down. It's still unbelievable, the whole thing. I'm thinking once "our" generation is gone it will not be really appreciated as to what was. The Pennsy, the NYC, the merger, all of it. It will just be another failed company and a footnote.
It's comparatively small, on the scale of contemporary screwups like AOL Time Warner, and while it does deserve its place in business-school case analyses and the like, it should be remembered that a GREAT deal of the depth of the failure was caused by government action (on a number of levels) that was addressed in the wake of the failure.
You, I, and most of the railfans 'behind the tree' understand that the merger couldn't possibly have worked well, even absent the inclusion of the New Haven at the 11th hour. I spent considerable time many years ago figuring out (in part with 20/20 hindsight) how the post-merger activity might have been coordinated to give the railroad a better chance -- in that climate, with taxation and regulation as they were, the best operational people in the business couldn't have made the operation pay. In fact, one could argue that if some of the 'obvious' failures like utterly incompatible IT or chronically deferred maintenance not been 'engaged in' there would have been no great disaster for Congress to have to act quickly on, and the form that deregulation actually took might have been quite different.
It's a pity that it took a catastrophe of this magnitude to get Congress to straighten up and take action, but I'm not sure failure of even a relatively large number of the smaller Northeastern roads would have produced the necessary action. So perhaps we shouldn't look at PC as the unalloyed pointless disaster that it was from either a pure financial or railroaders' perspective.
K4sPRRHonorable mention, those poor E units twenty years later...all looking like bland PC's.
You mean 'dishonorable mention', don't you?
Perhaps the most infuriating thing about those executive Es was that nobody seemed interested in the fact that black and white mix to make gray, with fairly consistent shade if you get the volumetric proportions right. And with that added color, you can do lightning stripe with the most elementary sort of taping and masking... and really had something special.
It takes real tragedy at road intersection's before stop lights are installed. Not sure I consider that a silver lining. Governments at all levels milked and mocked the railroads after the war and that was a shameless act of ingratitude. It really did not happen that way anywhere else in the world, maybe to a lesser extent in Canada. It could have gone in the completly opposite direction but that infrastructure was deliberatly ignored in favour of unfair competition and deemed "old and useless" for the most part. Ziggurats indeed. It only takes one person, a great leader with vision and sense, but that was not to be. Instead we got Sauders and the destruction of Penn Station for some shekels as the rest robbed the piggy bank.
It is hard for those of us who knew, witnessed and experienced the largese and vital nature of the PRR and the NYC to understand their rapid demise. The rot went into everyone in the East, then the Central portions of the land and finally the West Coast with the rapid demise of Southern Pacific. In the end the system sort of worked and we have what we have. Freight is moved quickly and efficiently and cleanly in comparison to others but we only have 4 players, 2 Canadian's and KCS. There is at least progress now.
Passenger service really should have advanced in a public/private partnership. So enjoy those airports, delayed flights, sardine modern day planes, security checks, zero amenities, cost add ones, high taxes, sitting on runways, uneasy and worried trips, overall really crappy and insincere service and congestion getting to and from the terminals. If that's progress then please let me purchase a roomette, even if that's limited to where I can travel to.
Overmod K4sPRR Honorable mention, those poor E units twenty years later...all looking like bland PC's. You mean 'dishonorable mention', don't you? Perhaps the most infuriating thing about those executive Es was that nobody seemed interested in the fact that black and white mix to make gray, with fairly consistent shade if you get the volumetric proportions right. And with that added color, you can do lightning stripe with the most elementary sort of taping and masking... and really had something special.
K4sPRR Honorable mention, those poor E units twenty years later...all looking like bland PC's.
(LOL)Like that, but then its a "double negative", being the most dishonorable of the worst. Still those poor E units, look at a before and and after of a B&O unit...sad, just sad.
I'm a bit late to this discussion. Obviously the worst merger is Penn Central, and that's been mentioned several times. I don't know what the best is. As for paint schemes, we have to agree on some standards. I think we are presuming a well-maintained, clean unit. Many schemes that looked great when they were new in the forties and fifties, looked disgraceful when poor maintenance and lack of cleaning caught up with them in the 1960's and 1970's. All things being equal, I think B&O's blue and gray scheme, applied to diesel cab units and passenger cars, was hard to beat. Of course, I was exposed to a lot of B&O activity as I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's, so you can take points off for personal prejudice if you like.
Tom
Overmod ... The fundamental design was worked out in the '30s, as an air compressor for submarines. Here is where the story gets interesting: the Hamilton machine company acquired the rights to this thing, and started engine research. Lima smells possibility knocking, and acquires Hamilton -- ostensibly for their 4-stroke diesel engine, but manifestly NOT the powerplant of destiny for anything bigger than an endcab switcher or double-end transfer engine. Baldwin now sees a way out of their slow-speed tugboat engine dilemma, and buys up Lima-Hamilton. Meanwhile GM is hell-for-leather on automotive versions (a colossal failure ... decidedly unlike the coal-burning turbine Eldorados, but I digress...) and large shipboard installations (including one in a Liberty ship in 1956 that demonstrated rather dramatically where one of the problems with the technology was0 and locomotive instantiation. Now, people will tell you the Fontaine locomotive was never used in service, and they'll tell you EMD never built a free-piston locomotive, but... check this out. (It was, in fact, not completed, for reasons I think I can guess pretty easily). The thing in the early '50s was this: Baldwin was behind the curve with lightweight diesel design, after being ahead of everyone in modular genset tech but not being able to sell it for profit, and here was the chance to scoop everyone on the way to lightweight turbine power without the turbine inlet temperature problem (note how happily I avoid troublesome acronyms!)
...
The fundamental design was worked out in the '30s, as an air compressor for submarines. Here is where the story gets interesting: the Hamilton machine company acquired the rights to this thing, and started engine research. Lima smells possibility knocking, and acquires Hamilton -- ostensibly for their 4-stroke diesel engine, but manifestly NOT the powerplant of destiny for anything bigger than an endcab switcher or double-end transfer engine. Baldwin now sees a way out of their slow-speed tugboat engine dilemma, and buys up Lima-Hamilton. Meanwhile GM is hell-for-leather on automotive versions (a colossal failure ... decidedly unlike the coal-burning turbine Eldorados, but I digress...) and large shipboard installations (including one in a Liberty ship in 1956 that demonstrated rather dramatically where one of the problems with the technology was0 and locomotive instantiation. Now, people will tell you the Fontaine locomotive was never used in service, and they'll tell you EMD never built a free-piston locomotive, but...
check this out. (It was, in fact, not completed, for reasons I think I can guess pretty easily). The thing in the early '50s was this: Baldwin was behind the curve with lightweight diesel design, after being ahead of everyone in modular genset tech but not being able to sell it for profit, and here was the chance to scoop everyone on the way to lightweight turbine power without the turbine inlet temperature problem (note how happily I avoid troublesome acronyms!)
With this in mind, I would like to suggest a few more categories for the "Oscars":Best 1st Gen American Diesel
Best 2nd Gen American Diesel
Best AMerican Diesel SwitcherBest Surviving Steamer
Any thoughts?
The Beaverton, Fanno Creek & Bull Mountain Railroad
"Ruby Line Service"
Best 2nd Gen: SD40T-2 or SD45
By "best" do you think it should be best looking or actually successful designs? Some first generation diesels were quite stunning in looks but not so great in service.
My choice for 2nd generation is the Sante Fe FP45 built for passenger service. There were only 14 produced but they sure looked pretty good.
Also I would like to add another category- Best Sounding Diesel whether it's idling, just starting to move or at speed.
My choice for the best diesel sound category may not be fair as few of my American cousins got a chance to experience the sound. That would be the locomotives built for the LRC for Via Rail 1980-84. The prime mover was designed by Alco, built by MLW/Bombraider, it was a very powerful engine and squeezed a lot of hp ( I think 3,700) in a compact car body. Idling at a station while picking up/discharging passengers the sound was wham wham wham wham wham ..like Thor was striking his hammer at high speed and the power of it all was quite audible as it departed. ...and it could be smokey upon departure, just like an Alco would be expected to be, not as badly as previous Alco's.
A turbine departing a station, especially leaving a union station with its covered platforms sure was an unforgettable sound.
Best 1st generation: GP7/9 (with honorable mention GP10s and the program behind them, although this is not strictly 1st generation). I might have voted for the Essl Baldwin, if all eight engines had been installed and the thing had found a high-speed niche... and Baldwin had been able to build it so it worked. (This was notable because the engine sets were modular right up to their section of carbody roof. I have trouble understanding how Baldwin got so far wrong after having so many right ideas very early.) I'll always have a soft spot for the BP-20s, but you can tell most of what you need to know by the list of railroads that rostered them.
Best diesel sound (idling) - anything with a 16-567. Better still, a consist of them (which Mid-South still regularly ran in Shreveport in the mid-Nineties).
Best second-generation diesel sound (better than the LRC locomotives) - the U34CH. (Extra points for the flame show.) There is little quite as LOUD as one of the big 251Vs, especially with a cracked manifold (you will fear for your eardrum integrity for a moment!) but that's really all they are. The U34CH on the other hand not only had character, it had poppet-valve steam-engine character. And looked every bit the part that it sounded.
I was a bit disappointed by the Turbotrain 'experience' trackside, as the sound and smell were quite familiar from airports and not particularly exciting or evocative of high speed. And the train seemed lanky and laid-back following the old New Haven main, rather than the surprising behavior of the 'toasters' and Amfleet after the great speedup in the latter 1980s, going through Princeton Junction like a knife thrown past your head. I did not experience the Turboliner as anything more than a fancy railcar that happened to have turbine power, which probably was less than fair.
1st generation Diesels I would go along with the BP-20, for looks anyway. PA's would likely be the choice of the majority, hard to beat the Santa Fe Warbonnet,.. but all of them were beatuifully done.
Switchers- Baldwin, Lima, FM all had a great look to them. Alco high hoods and FM with the Loewy styling.
Preserved steam- Not fair! Partial to an earlier one, CN #6218, Queen of the rails. How do you choose one over another?
Being in Canada I never heard a Baldwin locomotive "burbling" as they lovingly say. CP had some switchers in BC but that was thousands of miles away and I was just a kid. I've heard recordings but that's not the same as the experience.
Can't imagine what an eight engined Centipede would sound like. Wonder if this sound could be digitally reproduced.
MiningmanPreserved steam- Not fair! Partial to an earlier one, CN #6218, Queen of the rails. How do you choose one over another?
Not to say anything against 6218, she and I have a 'history' of sorts ... but you can't possibly claim that a U4b isn't all that and much, much more. (And got the streamlining details right that were fudged on 6400).
Unstreamlined, I am gleefully unorthodox in noting that CP had better 4-8-4s and CN had better Hudsons. So if you need 'just one' -- the biggest locomotive in the Empire, when a statistic like that mattered? The fastest locomotive in Canada? There are superlatives that actually do count when you start asking normative-sounding questions ... and are foolish enough to have 'one best of all' contests...
Assumed it meant steam locomotives that ran in excursion service well after steam had disappeared. Would be wonderful if a U4b could be in running condition again. Both CPR 3100 & 3101 are still with us as well, again just static display. As are 2 CNR Hudsons. Will future generations rebuild and restore any of these to running once again?
Besides..these are the "Oscars" so we can have new winners every year.
CN Hudson 5700 is actually 5703, as the real 5700 was scrapped by mistake. Now we hear this same "scrapped by mistake" story about a B&O EM-1, a N&W Y6b and even a NYC J3a. ...and those are just the ones I know about, I'm sure there are others. How is this even remotely possible? Was the message sent by Pony Express?
Worst Merger. Do hostile takeovers count as mergers? Because if they do then the Vanderbilt takeover of the Nickel Plate 3 days into it's operational history would be my choice.
Best merger. General Motors and Electro Motive.
Favorite saved loco. I have to give a lot of credit to Union Pacific for having a lot of courage to even attempt the restoration of a 4-8-8-4!
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
There's a great story of how the Nickle Plate got it's name.
Story goes, William Vanderbilt, heir to the Commodore, was very interested in the new New York, Chicago and Saint Louis Railroad and expressed his interested in buying it to the owners. After hearing their price, and picking his lower jaw off the floor, Vanderbilt exclaimed "WHAT! Confound it, is that road nickle plated?"
Great story. Is it true? If it ain't, it oughta be!
The nickname is credited to a newspaper reporter in Norwalk Ohio who in 1881 complimented the railroad about the quality of its construction.
Alright, perhaps I should clarify:
when I throw around "best" I would leave that up for interpretation. I use "best" as creative,best engineered OR simply favorite. I think any of those could be nominated. FOr instance I nominate the MP15AC as best switcher, because I like the fact that you can give a switcher a tunnel motor configuration, and they were only sold to a few companies
Regarding steam being unfait, lets add the category of "best steam." in addition to best "operating" steam.
I have another category, and I will be specific:
Best Independent Shortline/Regional. To qualify, a RR must have an intact corporate identity unique to itself. If it has since been merged out of existance, or swallowed by a holidng company, it can still qualify.
Too many categories?
Best shortline? OK, I'll admit this is a sentimental favorite but...
The Reading and Northern up in Pennsylvania, started from almost nothing back in the 80's, now a local powerhouse that even hauls anthracite! How many "Roads of Anthracite" are there anymore?
Besides, they run steam! Pacific 425 done up in a gorgeous "Blue Comet" type color scheme, and coming soon Reading 4-8-4 T-1 2102! How cool is that?
Penny Trains mentioned a best merger that I'm surprised none of us thought of, EMC and GM. In that vein, let me propose a best merger of my own, or maybe it's a "near-best."
Schenectedy, Richmond, Brooks, and Dickson Locomotive Works (among others) into what became ALCO, the American Locomotive Company. Not around today, but great while they lasted.
Firelock76 Penny Trains mentioned a best merger that I'm surprised none of us thought of, EMC and GM. In that vein, let me propose a best merger of my own, or maybe it's a "near-best." Schenectedy, Richmond, Brooks, and Dickson Locomotive Works (among others) into what became ALCO, the American Locomotive Company. Not around today, but great while they lasted.
The general board of The Academy of Railroad Arts and Sciences has voted to dismiss the nomination of EMD and ALCo, they were not railroads.
K4sPRR Firelock76 Penny Trains mentioned a best merger that I'm surprised none of us thought of, EMC and GM. In that vein, let me propose a best merger of my own, or maybe it's a "near-best." Schenectedy, Richmond, Brooks, and Dickson Locomotive Works (among others) into what became ALCO, the American Locomotive Company. Not around today, but great while they lasted. The general board of The Academy of Railroad Arts and Sciences has voted to dismiss the nomination of EMD and ALCo, they were not railroads.
BOOOOOOOO!
OK, how about a "Special Award" Oscar like Shirley Temple got?
Firelock76 K4sPRR Firelock76 Penny Trains mentioned a best merger that I'm surprised none of us thought of, EMC and GM. In that vein, let me propose a best merger of my own, or maybe it's a "near-best." Schenectedy, Richmond, Brooks, and Dickson Locomotive Works (among others) into what became ALCO, the American Locomotive Company. Not around today, but great while they lasted. The general board of The Academy of Railroad Arts and Sciences has voted to dismiss the nomination of EMD and ALCo, they were not railroads. BOOOOOOOO! OK, how about a "Special Award" Oscar like Shirley Temple got?
Maybe under the catagory of "supporting cast" or "technical support".
K4sPRR Firelock76 Penny Trains mentioned a best merger that I'm surprised none of us thought of, EMC and GM. In that vein, let me propose a best merger of my own, or maybe it's a "near-best." Schenectady, Richmond, Brooks, and Dickson Locomotive Works (among others) into what became ALCO, the American Locomotive Company. Not around today, but great while they lasted. The general board of The Academy of Railroad Arts and Sciences has voted to dismiss the nomination of EMD and ALCo, they were not railroads.
Firelock76 Penny Trains mentioned a best merger that I'm surprised none of us thought of, EMC and GM. In that vein, let me propose a best merger of my own, or maybe it's a "near-best." Schenectady, Richmond, Brooks, and Dickson Locomotive Works (among others) into what became ALCO, the American Locomotive Company. Not around today, but great while they lasted.
Schenectady, Richmond, Brooks, and Dickson Locomotive Works (among others) into what became ALCO, the American Locomotive Company. Not around today, but great while they lasted.
I beg your pardon: where in the original question did it say "RAILROAD mergers"?
No doubt the consolidation of EMC, Winton, and GM, with Sloan watching to be sure everything went right, had more significance for railroading than any mere combination of operating companies. And it could be argued that much of the innovation that characterized the decade and a half after the Alco merger wouldn't have happened, or would have had much-diluted effect, had it been spread among the various pre-merger builders (or they had segmented on the basis of technical preferences or patents).
Of course, or curse, this brings up one of the worst mergers: Baldwin and Lima, with Lima being suppressed into a maker of heavy equipment. (We'll leave Hamilton out of it, as they were really only the catalyst with the free-piston stuff)
[quote user="KBCpresident"]
I just thought that it would be fun to see what people come up with, so here is my idea. Nominations (opinions) about what railroads you would nominate for the following awards:
-Best Merger
-Worst Merger
-Best Paint Scheme
-Worst Paint Scheme
If you have ideas for any more awards, feel free to add them!
[/quote
Here is the original post, notice "what railroads would you nominate".
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter