F unit issue fact checking

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F unit issue fact checking
Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, March 9, 2015 6:36 PM

Just a few notes to start. The F2 productions totals on pages 25 and 49 don't agree.

However the main generator cited as being used in the F2 on pages 28 and 49 do agree that it was the D4. And both those pages are wrong as it was the D8 generator that was carried over from FT production to the F2.

 

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, March 9, 2015 6:41 PM
The D&RGW totals for F7s includes 2 A units and 2 B units built in November 1948. Were those the first F7s or were they F5s? The date at the top of the column states F7 production started in February 1949.
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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, March 9, 2015 6:49 PM

My research has found three additional FP7s. See Number Built on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:EMD_FP7 Both C&EI 1609 and CGW 116C were wrecked in 1951 and rebuilt on new frames. The other extra unit is NdeM 6309 EMD Serial #11011. Andre Kristopans EMD serial number pages are now on Don Stracks Utah Rails.

 

Tags: FP7
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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, March 9, 2015 6:54 PM

There were 90 FP9s. The four missing from the table on page 33 are Saudi units. The Saudi Government Railways #1502-1508 were FP9s.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 9, 2015 9:00 PM

Thanks for the data

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Posted by erikem on Monday, March 9, 2015 11:10 PM

One of the details missing from the articles was when the changeover from manual to automatic transition occurred.

OTOH, after reading about all the things that got changed from the FT to the F3, I now know why the FT's were almost gone in the arly 60's and were extinct by 1970 (with the exception of two of the demonstrator units).

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 4:08 AM

EMD sold a kit (I designed it in the summer of 1952) to convert FTs to automatic transition.  It was first applied to B&O's FTs.  I don't know which other railroads bought it.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 5:04 AM

The F9A count is off a bit. And mostly because of the demonstrator and wrecks. Add F9A demonstrator #975 to the Northern Pacific column. This F9 demonstrator was built in February 1953. Colorado & Southern #700D was rebuilt to an F9 from and F7.  Denver & Rio Grande #5531 and #5571 were rebuilt to F9s from an F3 and an F7 respectively. Ft. Worth and Denver #750A was rebuilt to an F9 from an F7. Louisville and Nashville #811 was rebuilt to an F9 from an F7. Wabash #1141A was rebuilt to an F9 from an F7. And EMD Test unit #462 was rebuilt to an F9 from a C&NW F7. The B unit count is spot on.

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 7:58 AM

The F2 table on page 25 shows 18 A units for B&M and 3 B units. The Jim Shaughnessy article on page 43 states B&M had 15 A units and 3 B units.

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 8:02 AM

Is Thomas Dilworth related to Richard Dilworth? See page 50 and http://www.google.nl/patents/US2423929 .

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 8:16 AM

Wallace Abbey's book on the Soo Line shows WC 2200ACB (three unit F3 set delivered in December 1948) and WC2201ACB (3 unit F7 set delivered in January 1949), which had consecutive order numbers, in adjacent photo frames "for the louver counters".  It seems the change from F3 (F5?) to F7 had more to do with start of construction than anything else.  Since Soo's units lacked dynamic brakes, the roof hatch is no help in ID-ing them.

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Posted by BigJim on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 9:45 AM

erikem
One of the details missing from the articles was when the changeover from manual to automatic transition occurred.

I sent a letter to the editor about this fact the day after I received my copy, but, have not had a reply. Can anyone else comment on when this change occured and the history behing it?

.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 10:38 AM

To add information about EMD's transition systems would have blurred the edges of the F unit article by Preston Cook. And that's because the transition system  changes overlapped the production period of the F3 and F7 models. The transition system changes were not concurrent with the model changes. See Larry Russel's F5 article in Extra 2200 South issue #96 for a brief glimpse of the changes.

BigJim
 
erikem
One of the details missing from the articles was when the changeover from manual to automatic transition occurred.

 

I sent a letter to the editor about this fact the day after I received my copy, but, have not had a reply. Can anyone else comment on when this change occured and the history behing it?

 

 

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 5:58 AM

The Cotton Belt train shown at the top of page 16 is train #7. Train #107 the Dallas section would depart from the track next to the Mt. Pleasant depot with an Alco RS-3 on the point. It would then turn at Dallas Junction, note sign to left in photo. This same photo appears in Steve Goen's Cotton Belt Color Pictorial on page 31 with the correct information about the train. The use of the FP7 to Dallas is not documented in any Cotton Belt photo that has come to light.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:52 AM

The major external difference between all F3s and all F7s was the stainless steel longitudinal grill over the upper side air louvres on all F7s and not on any F3s.  This also applied to the E7s, without the grill, and the E8s with.

No F7s were built with manual transition unless it was a special order by the railroad, and I don't know of any.   I also was unaware of any F3s with manual transition or E7s with manual transition.  If you know of any, please state which railroad had them.   I think the transition from manual to automatic occured while F2s were in production.

Other than the B&O, who else bought "my"EMD  conversion kit for the FT?

Railroads could use FTs with other power, the FTs had to lead to allow manual control.   This was not convenient when the B&O used FTs with F3s in helper service, where turning the "lash-up" was impractical.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 5:18 PM

The automatic transition was not used on the F2 according the EMD F2 article in Diesel Era by Calloway, Cupper and Withers. See pages 31 and 34. It was offered on the F3. This would be the EMD Type A transition applied prior to September 22, 1948.

I know that Cotton Belt FTs were modified to run with their F7s as mixed consists with F7s in the lead were common. Other railroads will be found that had these mixed F unit consists by studying photos of the time.

daveklepper

The major external difference between all F3s and all F7s was the stainless steel longitudinal grill over the upper side air louvres on all F7s and not on any F3s.  This also applied to the E7s, without the grill, and the E8s with.

No F7s were built with manual transition unless it was a special order by the railroad, and I don't know of any.   I also was unaware of any F3s with manual transition or E7s with manual transition.  If you know of any, please state which railroad had them.   I think the transition from manual to automatic occured while F2s were in production.

Other than the B&O, who else bought "my"EMD  conversion kit for the FT?

Railroads could use FTs with other power, the FTs had to lead to allow manual control.   This was not convenient when the B&O used FTs with F3s in helper service, where turning the "lash-up" was impractical.

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:49 PM

At least some of Soo Line's MSSteP&M 200 series F3s had manual transition.  All of WC's 2200 (well, the three unit set 2200 A, C, B) had automatic.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 12, 2015 2:52 AM

But so far, no F7s with manual.   Happy to learn about the F3s.    Possibly one F2 was equipped with automatic as a demonstrator or test.   Whether or not it lef EMD either as an F2 or with automatic transition are open questions.

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Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Thursday, March 12, 2015 6:36 AM

daveklepper
The major external difference between all F3s and all F7s was the stainless steel longitudinal grill over the upper side air louvres on all F7s and not on any F3s.

Not so!!!  The F3s delivered to the Reading came factory equipped with the stainless grill. 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, March 12, 2015 8:18 AM

DS4-4-1000
 
daveklepper
The major external difference between all F3s and all F7s was the stainless steel longitudinal grill over the upper side air louvres on all F7s and not on any F3s.

 

Not so!!!  The F3s delivered to the Reading came factory equipped with the stainless grill. 

 

 

Reading 262 is a late F3 built in November 1948, sometimes called an F5. There's a thin dime of difference between a late F3 and an early F7.   

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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, March 12, 2015 8:59 AM

There are a couple of articles in Trains that mention EMD's manual and automatic transition. David Morgan wrote that automatic transition was available in the new F7 in the article Diesel vs. Diesel September 1949 Trains pp 14-17. W. A. "Bill" Gardner wrote about making manual transition with a B&M F2 set in 1946 in November 1980 Trains. The article was titled Delivering EMD's Locomotives pp 50-60.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 13, 2015 2:47 AM

O, the Reading F3s or F5s whatever had stainless steel side grilles.    Anyone know of any F3s with other railroads with these grilles?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 13, 2015 5:52 AM

B&M F-Units:

FTA   4200A - 4223A   1943-1944

FTB   4200B - 4223B   1943-1944

F2A   4224A - 4226A   1946

4225A wrecked and replaced by 4263

F2B   4224B - 4226B    1946

F2A   4250  - 4264

F3A   4227A - 4228A   1948

F3B   4227B - 4228B   1948

F7A   4265A - 4268A   1949

F7B   4265B - 4268B   1950

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Posted by M636C on Friday, March 13, 2015 6:00 AM

daveklepper

OK, the Reading F3s or F5s whatever had stainless steel side grilles.    Anyone know of any F3s with other railroads with these grilles?

 
Think "F3" and "stainless steel" and what road comes to mind?
 
ATSF bought their only two F3 freight sets 200 LABC and 201 LABC with Farr stainless steel grilles.
 
Passenger F3s from at least 32 LABC onward to 36 LABC had them from new.
 
But all passenger F3s were retrofitted with stainless steel grilles, often the later punched louvre design rather than the fabricated bar grilles fitted new to F3s.
 
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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 13, 2015 8:22 AM

Note that both articles are correct.   Jim's 15 were the 15 singles that were bought to allow A-B-A combinations, while there were three that were bought with drawbar connected F2Bs probably finishing up an FT order.   But there were only 17 on the property at one time, because on of the singles replaced one of the original three F2As conntected to an F2B.

SSW9389

The F2 table on page 25 shows 18 A units for B&M and 3 B units. The Jim Shaughnessy article on page 43 states B&M had 15 A units and 3 B units.

[quote user="SSW9389"]

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Friday, March 13, 2015 8:28 AM

The quick answer on F3s built with grills  from Larry Russell's F5 article in Extra 2200 South is 381 A units and 238 B units. These are what railfans would call Phase 4 F3s and were built (with one exception) between August 1948 and February 1949.

Railroads to check: Aberdeen & Rockfish, ACL, AT&SF, B&O, GTW, C&EI, CB&Q, CGW, CC&O, D&RGW, EMD the exception built 3/48 and sold to KCS #59A, FEC, Georgia, GN, L&N, MEC, MILW, MP, NC&SL, NP, PRR, RDG, SOO, SOU, SP, SP&S, UP, and WRA.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 13, 2015 8:30 AM

and the

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the issue just arrived, so I stand corrected on stainless steel grille E3s.    Did any E7s get these?

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Posted by SSW9389 on Friday, March 13, 2015 9:00 AM

I haven't seen a photo of the B&M passenger F2ABs connected by a drawbar. They were matched F2AB sets connected by couplers from the photos I've seen. The 4225A 1st was wrecked at Canaan, NH on 8/19/1949 and scrapped that October. See http://home.comcast.net/~railimages/bmros2.htm for B&M F2s. The two B&M F2 EMD order numbers are E649 and E725 for which I'm finding conflicting data. There were 15 single F2As and 3 F2AB passenger sets by my count. 

[quote user="daveklepper"]

Note that both articles are correct.   Jim's 15 were the 15 singles that were bought to allow A-B-A combinations, while there were three that were bought with drawbar connected F2Bs probably finishing up an FT order.   But there were only 17 on the property at one time, because on of the singles replaced one of the original three F2As conntected to an F2B.

 
SSW9389

The F2 table on page 25 shows 18 A units for B&M and 3 B units. The Jim Shaughnessy article on page 43 states B&M had 15 A units and 3 B units.

 

 

SSW9389

 

 

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Saturday, March 14, 2015 3:33 PM

Here's an easy one to check. The caption for the Clinchfield FP7 photo on page 59 states that the road owned 41 F units. That's true, but only if you count originally owned units. The Clinchfield also bought five L&N F units to add to its fleet. So 41 + 5 = 46 F units total owned.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, March 14, 2015 5:15 PM

 

I stand corrected on the F2 drawbar vs. coupler question, thanks, and so there were in fact 18 B&M F2s 1946-1949.  My source must be mistaken on the replacement idea.  Or possibly what was meant was that the newer F2A single was mated with the B unit that was the mate to the wrecked unit after tbe wreck.

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