F unit issue fact checking

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NDG
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Posted by NDG on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 9:09 AM

 

Thank You.

 

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Friday, June 12, 2015 1:08 AM

Thank You.

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Posted by 16-567D3A on Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:14 PM

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NDG
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Posted by NDG on Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:49 PM

 

Thank You.

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, June 4, 2015 2:27 AM

New York Central had an additional F7B unit. The total should be 56 F7Bs instead of 55. There was a second #2446, parts from the first unit were used to build the new unit.

Tags: NYC , F7
COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by SSW9389 on Sunday, May 24, 2015 10:46 AM

Dave Keppler: My recent research has found photos that show your FT automatic transition was added to ACL, Cotton Belt, and Rock Island units. I have a report of a MP B unit operating with more modern units. And I'm thinking maybe the Southern had updated units. The Southern had both FT and FS units. And those railroads are besides the B&O units you mentioned.

daveklepper

EMD sold a kit (I designed it in the summer of 1952) to convert FTs to automatic transition.  It was first applied to B&O's FTs.  I don't know which other railroads bought it.

 

COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by SSW9389 on Sunday, May 17, 2015 11:51 AM

The ACL #317:2 was on EMD repair order #7005 dated 3/51. Your 5/51 date is the completion shop date for the unit. EMD repair order #7006 was for Rio Grande #5481 an FT which was rebuilt on an F7 frame. EMD repair orders #7000-7004 are undocumented. One those undocumented repair orders was for Cotton Belt #921 an FT wrecked at Aurich, AR and rebuilt on an F7 frame by EMD.

See  http://www.utahrails.net/ajkristopans/REPAIRJOBS.php 

16-567D3A

SSW9389, Don't know if these two FT-F7 units rebuilt into F7/ F9s were counted twice or as what model, But for the record ATLANTIC COAST LINE  FT 317:1 was wrecked/retired in in1951.ACL purchased an stripped F7A carbody from EMD. In 5/51  Tampa shops transplanted the FT components to the new F7 carbody,and was returned as 1500hp F7 317:2 to service. Then in1956 317:2 was wrecked and sent to EMD and rebuilt with an F9 carbody and major components under new builder`s number 23465  as F9 317:3.    ACL F7 417:1, was also wrecked in the same 10/18/56 Floral City Fla.head-on accident returned to Lagrange and also rebuilt with F9 components becoming F9 417:2. B/N 23466, and both returned to service 5/57.these two units,the only F9s on ACL,(several Fs were upgraded by road shops to F9 specs)lasted through the SCL merger being among the last cab units on the Seaboard Coast Line and retired/traded with the last 23 FP7s on GP38-2/U18B orders in 1973. This information is from Warren Calloways, ATLANTIC COAST LINE  The Diesel Years.

 

 

COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by SSW9389 on Friday, May 15, 2015 9:09 AM

How many F7 units did Union Pacific have? The article states 17 A units and 35 B units. Don Strack's F unit page states 20 A units and 36 B units. See  http://utahrails.net/articles/up-f-units.php And Wikipedia's F7 page gives 21 A units and 38 B units. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_F7 The difference between the Don Strack article and the Wikipedia article is how UP 1466, 1466B and 1466C are accounted for. Again the truth between most of this information and what is in print in Classic Trains is how EMD demonstrators and wreck rebuilds are accounted for.

 

Tags: F7
COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, May 14, 2015 5:18 AM

What is the correct count on Southern F7 units? The Classic Trains article roster shows 93 F7As and 54 F7Bs. Extra 2200 South February-March 1970 shows a combined total of 76 A units and 71 B units. The Diesel Shop roster here http://www.thedieselshop.us/SouRy.HTML shows 79 A units and 68 B units. And the Wikipedia roster here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_F7 shows 76 A units and 71 B units. Ed in Kentucky

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Posted by SSW9389 on Saturday, April 4, 2015 4:45 AM

Here's an easy one to check from the F7 tally and one of the photos on page 30. The Wabash owned 118 F7As and 9 F7Bs. This was checked with several sources including the Wabash roster in Extra 2200 South issue #90. The photo caption about the Wabash F7s is wrong. The Wabash purchased eight F7ABA sets in August 1949 and followed up with the purchase of a single F7ABA set in June 1950. There were only 50 Wabash F7AA pairs, not 54. And then the caption goes on with 22 built in Canada. Is that 22 units or 22 sets? The truth is 22 units or 11 F7AA sets were built by GMDL.

COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by SSW9389 on Friday, April 3, 2015 5:53 PM

The ACL rebuild is not in the F7 count on page 30. I use A J Kristopans serial number page among others and post the results to the Wikipedia rosters page on the subject locomotives. There are numerous errors on the F7 tally, but wrecks, rebuilds and demonstrator history is messy.

Mr. Kristopans serial number pages are now on Don Strack's Utah Rails website. See http://www.utahrails.net/ajkristopans/ajkristopans-index.php 

Ed in Soggy, Kentucky

 

 

16-567D3A

SSW9389, Don't know if these two FT-F7 units rebuilt into F7/ F9s were counted twice or as what model, But for the record ATLANTIC COAST LINE  FT 317:1 was wrecked/retired in in1951.ACL purchased an stripped F7A carbody from EMD. In 5/51  Tampa shops transplanted the FT components to the new F7 carbody,and was returned as 1500hp F7 317:2 to service. Then in1956 317:2 was wrecked and sent to EMD and rebuilt with an F9 carbody and major components under new builder`s number 23465  as F9 317:3.    ACL F7 417:1, was also wrecked in the same 10/18/56 Floral City Fla.head-on accident returned to Lagrange and also rebuilt with F9 components becoming F9 417:2. B/N 23466, and both returned to service 5/57.these two units,the only F9s on ACL,(several Fs were upgraded by road shops to F9 specs)lasted through the SCL merger being among the last cab units on the Seaboard Coast Line and retired/traded with the last 23 FP7s on GP38-2/U18B orders in 1973. This information is from Warren Calloways, ATLANTIC COAST LINE  The Diesel Years.

 

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Posted by 16-567D3A on Friday, April 3, 2015 3:30 PM

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Posted by SSW9389 on Sunday, March 29, 2015 4:48 AM
This one would have been easy to fact check. On page 31 next to the last paragraph, last sentence states: "At more than 4200 units, the 7 series was the top-selling F line; its successor, the 9 series, sold fewer than 600." The part about the 7 series is true, but the 9 series sold less than 400 units using the roster numbers supplied in the article.
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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:14 AM

That first Santa Fe #32A an F3B ended up being counted with the Santa Fe F7Bs. That particular F3B was rebuilt by EMD as an F7B and used as part of the #1950 demonstrator set before being sold to Santa Fe as their #48A.

SSW9389

The F3 production totals on page 26 needs some work. Santa Fe had another B unit the #32A, the first one had a fire and was returned to EMD. EMD replaced it with another unit of the same number and kept the ex-Santa Fe unit to use as a demonstrator. Bangor and Aroostook had 8 A units, not 9. The Burlington had 58 A units not 53. I previously noted the two A and two B units built in November 1948 for the Rio Grande that are included on the F7 count. And EMD Demonstrator 291A2 which was wrecked before sale is not included in the count. The other F3 demonstrators are included in the individual railroad counts. The Monon had two A units and a B unit demonstrator. The KCS had the first F5 demonstrator built. And the TP&W had an A and B demonstrator. Ed in Kentucky

 

COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, March 23, 2015 11:41 AM

The F3 production totals on page 26 needs some work. Santa Fe had another B unit the #32A, the first one had a fire and was returned to EMD. EMD replaced it with another unit of the same number and kept the ex-Santa Fe unit to use as a demonstrator. Bangor and Aroostook had 8 A units, not 9. The Burlington had 58 A units not 53. I previously noted the two A and two B units built in November 1948 for the Rio Grande that are included on the F7 count. And EMD Demonstrator 291A2 which was wrecked before sale is not included in the count. The other F3 demonstrators are included in the individual railroad counts. The Monon had two A units and a B unit demonstrator. The KCS had the first F5 demonstrator built. And the TP&W had an A and B demonstrator. Ed in Kentucky

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, March 23, 2015 11:32 AM

16-567D3A

Overall  I thought that it was a good issue,There was no mention of the Model TR1 which had the FT 1500hp. Machinery  in a elongated switcher body with blomberg road trucks and like the  1000hp.NW3/ NW5 and later 1500hp BL series were Developmental steps leading up to the GP7 roadswitcher.Two TR1 Cow-calf sets were built for the Illinois Central in 4-5-41,#9250A/B, 9251A/B. And on the question of FTs that had Automatic transition kits later installed. I had a discussion at a ACL-SAL Historical society meet 25 years ago with Warren Calloway about the Excellent 50th Anniversary of the FT articles that had just been published in three monthly installments in Railfan and Railroad magazine in late 1989.he had told me about how the extensively modified ACL and Southern FTs were converted to automatic transition and the B units eventually separated and fitted with couplers,while the Seaboards stayed manual and drawbar connected until their retirement,and we also discussed the FTs unique complicated Engineering features that made them poor upgrade and rebuild candidates that were later changed on subsequent F models.

 

The lack of editing/fact checking apalls me. The layout and photos are great, but the facts need some serious work before the magazine goes to the printer.

I knew about the ACL FTs I was looking at some FT photos this morning and noticed the non-standard stirrup steps in the tail position on an A unit. The Southern units are a bit tricky because Southern had both FT and FS units.  

Ed in Kentucky

 

 

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Posted by 16-567D3A on Thursday, March 19, 2015 10:50 AM

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Posted by AgentKid on Monday, March 16, 2015 4:58 PM

BaltACD

Amazing how Timetable direction and geographical direction can be in conflict - but there is a lot of it.

Reminds me of the situation that once existed at Drumheller, AB. The town was located in a very steep sided valley and to reduce costs both CP and CN used CN's line. The line ran NNW to SSE through town.

However, according to the ETT's it went like this. On CP; NB Langdon Sub. trains ran SSE, and SB trains ran NNW. On CN; EB Hanna Sub. trains ran NNW, and WB trains ran SSE.

Dad used to joke it must have made new men working 3rd trick jobs head's explode without the benefit of sunlight to help keep them oriented!

CP's Langdon Sub. was abandoned in the early '70's. It was the line through Irricana and there it ran in the approved north-south manner.

Bruce

 

So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.

"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere"  CP Rail Public Timetable

"O. S. Irricana"

. . . __ . ______

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, March 16, 2015 7:46 AM

SSW9389

On page 18 the photo caption for the train passing Dallas Union Terminal is wrong. On the Cotton Belt per timetable authority trains ran north and south, never east or west. And if this is a Cotton Belt train exercising Espee trackage rights its definitely a westbound headed for Miller Yard.

 

 

Amazing how Timetable direction and geographical direction can be in conflict - but there is a lot of it.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, March 16, 2015 12:31 AM

On page 18 the photo caption for the train passing Dallas Union Terminal is wrong. On the Cotton Belt per timetable authority trains ran north and south, never east or west. And if this is a Cotton Belt train exercising Espee trackage rights its definitely a westbound headed for Miller Yard.

 

Tags: Dallas
COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 15, 2015 9:31 AM

I misuderstood what my source of information meant.   Clearly, he meant that when the A of the AB combination was wrecked, at that time the single A was paired by the B&M with the B as a replacement, not that the single A came from EMD as a replacement.    So, apparenly between 1946 and 1949, 18 F2As is the correct number.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, March 14, 2015 5:15 PM

 

I stand corrected on the F2 drawbar vs. coupler question, thanks, and so there were in fact 18 B&M F2s 1946-1949.  My source must be mistaken on the replacement idea.  Or possibly what was meant was that the newer F2A single was mated with the B unit that was the mate to the wrecked unit after tbe wreck.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Saturday, March 14, 2015 3:33 PM

Here's an easy one to check. The caption for the Clinchfield FP7 photo on page 59 states that the road owned 41 F units. That's true, but only if you count originally owned units. The Clinchfield also bought five L&N F units to add to its fleet. So 41 + 5 = 46 F units total owned.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Friday, March 13, 2015 9:00 AM

I haven't seen a photo of the B&M passenger F2ABs connected by a drawbar. They were matched F2AB sets connected by couplers from the photos I've seen. The 4225A 1st was wrecked at Canaan, NH on 8/19/1949 and scrapped that October. See http://home.comcast.net/~railimages/bmros2.htm for B&M F2s. The two B&M F2 EMD order numbers are E649 and E725 for which I'm finding conflicting data. There were 15 single F2As and 3 F2AB passenger sets by my count. 

[quote user="daveklepper"]

Note that both articles are correct.   Jim's 15 were the 15 singles that were bought to allow A-B-A combinations, while there were three that were bought with drawbar connected F2Bs probably finishing up an FT order.   But there were only 17 on the property at one time, because on of the singles replaced one of the original three F2As conntected to an F2B.

 
SSW9389

The F2 table on page 25 shows 18 A units for B&M and 3 B units. The Jim Shaughnessy article on page 43 states B&M had 15 A units and 3 B units.

 

 

SSW9389

 

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 13, 2015 8:30 AM

and the

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the issue just arrived, so I stand corrected on stainless steel grille E3s.    Did any E7s get these?

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Posted by SSW9389 on Friday, March 13, 2015 8:28 AM

The quick answer on F3s built with grills  from Larry Russell's F5 article in Extra 2200 South is 381 A units and 238 B units. These are what railfans would call Phase 4 F3s and were built (with one exception) between August 1948 and February 1949.

Railroads to check: Aberdeen & Rockfish, ACL, AT&SF, B&O, GTW, C&EI, CB&Q, CGW, CC&O, D&RGW, EMD the exception built 3/48 and sold to KCS #59A, FEC, Georgia, GN, L&N, MEC, MILW, MP, NC&SL, NP, PRR, RDG, SOO, SOU, SP, SP&S, UP, and WRA.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 13, 2015 8:22 AM

Note that both articles are correct.   Jim's 15 were the 15 singles that were bought to allow A-B-A combinations, while there were three that were bought with drawbar connected F2Bs probably finishing up an FT order.   But there were only 17 on the property at one time, because on of the singles replaced one of the original three F2As conntected to an F2B.

SSW9389

The F2 table on page 25 shows 18 A units for B&M and 3 B units. The Jim Shaughnessy article on page 43 states B&M had 15 A units and 3 B units.

[quote user="SSW9389"]

 

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Posted by M636C on Friday, March 13, 2015 6:00 AM

daveklepper

OK, the Reading F3s or F5s whatever had stainless steel side grilles.    Anyone know of any F3s with other railroads with these grilles?

 
Think "F3" and "stainless steel" and what road comes to mind?
 
ATSF bought their only two F3 freight sets 200 LABC and 201 LABC with Farr stainless steel grilles.
 
Passenger F3s from at least 32 LABC onward to 36 LABC had them from new.
 
But all passenger F3s were retrofitted with stainless steel grilles, often the later punched louvre design rather than the fabricated bar grilles fitted new to F3s.
 
M636C
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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 13, 2015 5:52 AM

B&M F-Units:

FTA   4200A - 4223A   1943-1944

FTB   4200B - 4223B   1943-1944

F2A   4224A - 4226A   1946

4225A wrecked and replaced by 4263

F2B   4224B - 4226B    1946

F2A   4250  - 4264

F3A   4227A - 4228A   1948

F3B   4227B - 4228B   1948

F7A   4265A - 4268A   1949

F7B   4265B - 4268B   1950

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