Crappiest Passenger Train in No. America (pre-Amtrak)

[Bob-Fryml]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SILVERCHAMPION

The clockers of the old PRR from NYV to Philadelphia

My only ride on the late, great Pennsy was on a Saturday in August 1966. Having just arrived G.C.T. on the 20th Century Limited, dad met me on the platform and we stashed my luggage in a rented locker. After a short cab ride over to Pennsylvania Station, we caught a Clocker for Philadelphia. Dad was very disappointed that our train didn't have a parlor car, but I surely did enjoy screamin' through the Jersey Meadows in an open windowed coach. As I write this my mind's eye still sees the golden glow headlight of the Tuscan red, Challenger-class, 4-6-6-4 locomotive (oops, I meant to write "GG1") that was immediately ahead of our coach.

But...getting back to the topic...the crappiest pre-Amtrak passenger train I ever rode was the morning "Q" train from Kansas City to Omaha during July 1968. The E-unit, baggage car, and coach were absolutely filthy, and the coach was full of houseflies. Yuckola! I wrote a letter of complaint to the corporate offices in Chicago and received a very sincere letter of apology in return. This train was no California Zephyr.

My KCMO-Omaha experience was part of a circle tour I made over four days, one which included the G.M.& O.'s Limited (Chicago - Saint Louis), MoPac's Missouri River Eagle (Saint Louis - KCMO), and C.R.I.& P.'s Corn Belt Rocket (Omaha - Chicago). The trains just mentioned were clean and run in a very business-like manner even if they were a little threadbare.

Oh, and one last comment. During September 1970 Espee no. 98 took me from San Francisco to Los Angeles. I had to get pretty tough with the crabby old ticket agent at 4th & Townsend to get that miserable old s.o.b. to sell me a parlor car ticket. He did, but he wouldn't promise me that the car would run when I wanted it. Fortunately it did, and I had a wonderful trip riding down the Coast Line. Along the entire run, I don't think there were any more than five people total that occupied that streamlined observation parlor car. Of course being a doyenne of "garbage gut cuisine" I didn't think the automat car was all that bad.

[Anonymous]

The NH was my hometown railroad- and I loved it to pieces, even as it disintegrated before my saddened eyes. The Rattler was the last gasp of a bankrupt railroad, forced into merger with PC against both railroad's desires. I rode the commuter trains with my dad into the city and the service was awful. Delays were commonplace in 68 due to equipment failures and a lot of neglect.

I took an AMTRAK train from Kansas City to NYC in 74, right before I enlisted in the Army. It was a great way to travel... certainly better than the bus, and a lot more comfortable than the plane, which I could not afford. The train still got into NYC four hours late. I caught a PC train to New Haven... and wished I had the two bucks extra to take the AMTRAK train.

If you wanted comfort in the 70's, you ponied up the extra bucks and rode AMTRAK. If you wanted cheaper, not always reliable service, you took Penn Central, later Metro North.

The railroad has improved tremendously since those days....

Erik

[daveklepper]

I aqgree about the New Haven. Tried very hard to please passengers even in banckrupcy and receivership. This really got bad quickly when PC started running things, the only saving grace being the use of GG-1's to New Haven.

Like your Aerotrain story, I planned a Cambridge, MA - Troy trip on the Minuteman to have a date with a girlfriend at Skidmore College, and planned on using the buffet service shown in the timetable with the equipment being the original Flying Yankee Budd articulated streamliner. At the Porter Square station, what came from North Station was an RS-3 Alco road switcher and some ex-reading coaches and a combine. No meal service, and I had not eaten since breakfast. A conductor took pity on me and gave me some of his salted peanuts and there water cooler was full. Coming back I road an RDC-1 and didn't expect to be fed. Generally, however, the B&M did better than that.

[Anonymous]

Z UP 9000 4-12-2 class !

[Anonymous]

Thank you, David, for your remarks re: New Haven. And I might also add the combined C&O/B&O to the list. When Pullman gave up ownership of sleeping cars in 1968 the railroad snagged them and lowered the prices to coach fare + accommodation, as opposed to arbitrary first-class fare (generally 150% of coach) + high accomodation fee. Given the constraints Chessie's RR had to work within, they did their best.

Al

[David_Telesha]

I have to stand up for the New Haven.

Except for some locals they weren't all Budd RDC at anytime at all.

Especially not on trains like the Merchants Limited, Yankee Clipper, etc..

They tried but were dealt a poor hand financially.. I still say class to the end.

[daveklepper]

Again those awful snack cars with awful stale food on the Detroit Chicago PC runs with memories of fine NYC diners long gone.

[artpeterson]

PC's Chicago-Detroit trains were pretty shabby - "dip-job" ex-NYC Es and the odd assortment of coaches (my that PC green was a "tasty" scheme!) didn't provide much thrill. Would add a second for some of the equipment on the "Clockers" - especially those ex-PRR converted sleepers that had precious little legroom between the facing seats at the ends of the car.

Also had a bad, bad day on the "Flambeau 400" - waiting endlessly in the wilds of Wisconsin for a meet that never came; going to the diner for dinner only to be informed that corned beef hash was all they had available, etc.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I've noticed in most of these postings that the bad rides were generally on secondary trains that never had much in the way of amenities associated with premier trains such as the Super Chief/El Capitan, Empire Builder, etc.

Food for thought: Many years ago, while perusing Moody's Transportation Manual, I found that Santa Fe's passenger service prior to about 1966 showed an operating ratio usually around 150%. After 1969, when the service was down to the Super Chief/El Capitan, Texas Chief, San Francisco Chief, Grand Canyon, San Diegans plus some odds and ends, the operating ratio jumped to over 200%. Getting rid of the secondary runs reduced the overall losses because less trains were being run but the remaining trains were more expensive to run.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and the coup de grace: we set out for home from New York the day Hurricane Camille had "burst" just north of Lynchburg, rendering dozens missing and wiping out the mainline bridge over the Tye River.

Did we know about this? We did NOT. "Penn Central and Southern are different companies and they don't communicate." So it wasn't until we got to D.C. that we found out ALL service had been canceled. Dad had to be back in town the next day so, gratis his Amex, we flew on Piedmont Airlines from D.C. to Tri-City airport in N.E. Tennessee. If we've any aviation buffs listening, it might amuse to know that our turbo-prop was a Japanese YS-11 out of Yamamoto.

[Anonymous]

I guess a lot of trains got awful toward the very end. In the summer of 1969 Dad and I took the Birmingham Special from Glade Spring, VA to Washington. Southern equipment (recall that Bristol to Lynchburg VA was N&W). The coaches were transomed and apparently pre-war and converted to air-conditioning later (there was also one window per seat, a somewhat compensating blessing). No diner, no snack bar--we ordered ahead for a box lunch at Lynchburg.

The train was 1:05 late and stayed that way all day. The (one) Trainman and Conductor were only occasionally present. They thought so little of the passengers (or was it corporate order) that they kept the WC's locked. One little girl couldn't wait and p*d on the seat!

We really had to hustle to get off that train at the D.C. Union Station diesel concourse and trot upside to catch the last Penn Central for Pennsylvania Station. Certainly not "de luxe," but the conductors were pleasant and both food AND drink was available. Also, was hauled by a GG-1, always a plus in my history book.

Allen Smalling

[Anonymous]

The commute from Bay Head into Newark. My kidneys still hurt from the rides in those P70s.

[PBenham]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by PBenham
NYC seemed to have a monopoly on crappy trains, but they were out to kill their passenger service, remember? For that matter so did SP, Southern (Before W. Graham Claytor), L&N,C&EI and PRR.

I am glad someone brought that up. It wasn't that poor service was being provided due to oversight or mismanagement. Poor service was intentional trying to get ridership down and the government to let them discontinue the passenger trains.

I was just young enough to have never ridden any of these, but just old enough to notice a huge difference between the Santa Fe trains I was used to seeing at home and the dirty, rusty, junky trains I saw on a family vacation to Nashville TN. That had to be 1967 or 8.

TZ, you hit it[:D] on the sweet spot! On many routes, Amtrak was an improvement over their predecessors! But it took time for Amtrak to ease out the bad apples in the equipment and employee ranks! Now, the effects of all the cuts or threats of them have made an impact on some employees. IF[xx(] Amtrak lasts that long, Amfleet I and II cars will "celebrate" their 40th anniversaries of service.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PBenham
NYC seemed to have a monopoly on crappy trains, but they were out to kill their passenger service, remember? For that matter so did SP, Southern (Before W. Graham Claytor), L&N,C&EI and PRR.

I am glad someone brought that up. It wasn't that poor service was being provided due to oversight or mismanagement. Poor service was intentional trying to get ridership down and the government to let them discontinue the passenger trains.

I was just young enough to have never ridden any of these, but just old enough to notice a huge difference between the Santa Fe trains I was used to seeing at home and the dirty, rusty, junky trains I saw on a family vacation to Nashville TN. That had to be 1967 or 8.

[PBenham]

NYC seemed to have a monopoly on crappy trains, but they were out to kill their passenger service, remember? For that matter so did SP, Southern (Before W. Graham Claytor), L&N,C&EI and PRR. But New Haven locals out of GCT to New Haven* were pretty awful, with lots of cracked, broken,and, out and out missing windows. The survivors were often fogged, browned out or had jagged shards of glass where the window was. Now, heat? Problematic. A/C? Don't make me laugh. My Dad swore he was going to suffocate in a "Washboard". The olde fella is claustrophobic. That car didn't help him one bit: he still hates riding trains. Right behind these all-stars were the old "Edison" M.U.s on the ex- DL&W after 1960, until 1968, when NJDOT began to fix them up. The majority of NHs M.U.s went to the junkers, un-mourned. * Or Stamford,Bridgeport and Danbury.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to reader drephpe, who posted a fine reply to my comment of 03 Jan 2005. I merely wanted to initiate an interesting discussion, and named the Ponce de Leon because its Jim Crow seating status was mentioned in a 1974 "Trains" article about B&O's Diplomat by (John?) Crosby.

[Anonymous]

I don't know, SP's LARK was kinda cheezy. My favorites would have to be the,
Super Chief by SF, SP's coast daylight, & B&O's royal blue

[OLDFLAG]

Commuted from Perth Amboy to Newark, NJ in '63 to '65. Rode the Pennsy's local MU's and the Pennsy's heavy weights that started down the shore, but I liked taking the Jersey Central with it's very old and broken down heavy weights. Dirty, broken windows, pealing paint, raggy seats and fun to lift the toilet seat and watch the tracks go by! Changed trains at Elizabethport and rode a very dirty Budd to Newark. The inside air was always lousy and gave me a headache.

I've reading fourms to find where I can find more about this sectionof the LB&NY RR especially from '45 to '55.

[MACADO]

The PRR from PIT to NYC. was suppost to ride the AeroTrain. I was about 11. Got to ride this slow train that was mixed freight and pass. I got to pay 25 cents for a stale nickle Hershey Bar. It was about 1956. boy was that train slow...........

[agentatascadero]

As one who was there, there were numerous great trains, but probably even more "junkers". Things were generally much better west of Chicago, still true today. There were, of course, exceptions. There may not have been better trains anywhere than the Capitol Limited, or Silver Meteor, but New Haven was a mess as was NYC or PRR if riding other than the 20TH Century or Broadway. The Most Crappiest train ever for me was the Texas Eagle in 1966 between San Antonio and Milano ,TX, filthy, overcrowded, hot, Dome windows painted and/or boarded over, with lousy and very overpriced "food." SP: Well their trains, right up to the end were, to quote Mr Morgan, "clean, always scrupously clean", and they were well maintained. Yes I hated the automats too, and attention to good food service ended sometime in the late 50's, but ,IIRC Hamburger Grill or Dining car burgers were not at all bad. The NW pool trains were good right up to the end, and 2 of the 3 had diners.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

All complaints about SP's Automat cars should be tempered by the fact that dining car prices were pretty steep and while the dining-car experience is something that we all wax nostalgic about, SP realized that the passengers it still had weren't eating in the diner because of the prices and it was trying to get some meal revenue by providing a service to fit the market.
Remember, if nobody's eating in a full-service dining car, what's the point of including it in the consist if a snack bar or automat car in its place would be used.

[Anonymous]

Try "To Hell in a Day Coach" by Peter Lyon. Still available at many libraries. Has an excellent analysis of what went on.

No offense, but why anyone would desire to have memories of the sometimes almost brutal mistreatment of pax at the hands of some of the RR companies, etc. is beyond me--sorta like wanting to cheri***hat bad case of the flu, or having your tonsils out[banghead][banghead]

With regard to that cultural tragedy known as Jim Crow (see the Ponce de Leon comment above), let's don't blame the RRs for that. There's plenty enough to blame 'em for that's legitimate! Where racial segregation was official policy, it was required by state law or enforced by Federal fiat, upheld by the USSC in Plessy v. Ferguson in 1908 (I think I got the date right), and the railroads were subject to civil and criminal penalties if they didn't enforce it. This actually put a legal burden on the RRs that they didn't want and shouldn't have had--that of being cops on top of everything else they did. For the benefit of the readers who weren't around (and this is not an apology for the practice--it was abhorrent and we all would have been better off had it never happened, but it did) the lightweight divided chair cars did attempt to provide equivalent facilities, and the seating, upholstery, luggage racks, decor, restrooms, etc. were exactly equivalent in the car, with many cars having the divider movable so that it could be adjusted with load. A seat occupied by a caucasian on one trip could easily wind up on the segregated end of the car on the next, and vice versa, and if you were a passenger of any race, you never would know that just from looking when you boarded and rode. The junk equipment that got used for the purpose is another issue altogether, and was indeed inexcusable, as was the not-separate-but-still-equal abysmally crummy (how's THAT for repetitive redundancy!!) treatment most of them gave the traveling public from the early '50's on, and sometimes even before.

And it's ironic that the airlines who tried to put RR passenger service in the history books with free amenities and quality of service now seem to be trying extremely hard to outdo the SP's and PC's at their nadirs. First, buy nasty, overpriced meals on board; next, flight attendants with palms outstretched when they throw 'em at you![banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead]

[mersenne6]

Actually, there are quite a few which might meet this criteria. In the book Slow Train to Yesterday the author describes any number of trains that could vie for this title.

[lvt1000]

And what about the New Haven? Or Burlington discontinuing a train in the middle of a run? The deified Southern Railway with St. Graham of Claytor truncating trains to run from nowhere to nowhere in order to eventually get a train off petition approved.

Anyone remember the sit-down strikes in front of PC#31 at Altoona. Disgruntled passengers balked at continuing journey on account of AC and other problems, police called. Happened around 1969.

But one astute poster wished they had those memories....that's the best comment in this string.

[Anonymous]

SR's Ponce De Leon...or any train w/ Jim Crow seating. MCF

[rrock]

I'll probably make some errors regarding the particulars, but please bear with me..

As a wee lad in about 1960, my grandmother took me via rail from Salem Oregon to Klamath Falls Oregon to visit relatives.

The first/southbound leg of the trip was aboard the southbound SP "Daylight", I think. Modern train of the era, wonderful trip. I remember many of the details, the wonderful cars, etc. What I have later learned was exceptional service by the train crew.

The return (one week later) trip was aboard a series of what were probably "locals" or second class passenger service on SP. The trip seemed to take *forever*. I recall even today the decrepit condition of the cars, what I now know to be vintage (then) heavyweight equipment. I remember vividly sitting for what seemed like hours...on sidings...waiting. It was summer, and even to a child it was *so* hot on the return trip. Air conditioning...nada!

The moral is, pre-Amtrak, the quality of passenger service, good or bad, was the result of what the respective railroad did (or didn't) care to provide, in many cases.

In the Pacific Northwest we have somewhat the same today. Amtrak "Cascades" service, bankrolled by the states of Washington and Oregon, operated by Amtrak, is generally quite qood. On the other hand, Amtrak's Coast Starlight, is....variable. In general, the on-board crew tries their best. However, aging Amfleet equipment takes its toll....uncle pete throws a few monkey wrenches in during the Starlight's travels in the Golden State...and the weather in the Pacific Northwest. But I'm wandering off topic....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

Russelburgers[dinner][xx(][:(!]The #1 reason that the SP Automat was the worst idea ever in the history of railroad dining[:(!][B)][xx(]!

Followed later by the succulent offerings of the Amtrak Turbo Cafe. You could tell how long the sandwiches had been on-board as the cornedbeef turned from red to multi-colored glow-in-the-dark greens and yellows. We used to say that the sandwiches were acquiring seniority. Once during a food poisoning scandel with Amtrak's sandwich providers teams of FDA folk would make spot checks of items in the Cafe. This was during the spring of '78. I was conductor on 335, the 4.30pm Turbo to Milwaukee. I was helping someone onto the train about 4.26pm with only 4 minutes to go. I passed through the cafe to go back on the ground when I noticed a youthful, but officius FDA person sticking a thermometer in all the hot dogs. I reminded her that she had better prepare to exit the train or she would be going with us. She replied, "This train will not leave until I inspect all the food." I replied that I wasn't about to tie up the entire afternoon rush hour while she gave a physical to all the weinies. She gave me a stern look as I departed, went to the platform and promptly, although a tad early, yelled, "BOOOOoaaaaaaaaarDDD!" My brakeman, and good friend Eddie, took the cue and sounded his giant gym-teacher whistle that we had been using on an experimental basis to urge the crowds onboard for departure. The inspector came flying out of the train with her thermometer in hand. I looked at her and I said, "Got done, did ya?" and with that we departed.
Mitch

[espeefoamer]

Russelburgers[dinner][xx(][:(!]The #1 reason that the SP Automat was the worst idea ever in the history of railroad dining[:(!][B)][xx(]!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt

For someone who's not old enough to remember pre-Amtrak passenger trains, I find this thread enlightening on rail travel in the sixties. Some railroads cared about their passenger trains, and the rest could care less.
Just wondering, but what is the dreaded "Russellburger" served on SP trains? I'm guessing it's one of those nasty microwaved hamburgers named in "honor" of DJ Russell that turns soggy when heated, and tastes like cardboard. [xx(][xx(]
Or perhaps cardboard is too nice a description. [:p]

You're right on all counts, and keeping in mind the tiny tots (this IS a family forum!) cardboard is indeed too nice a description for the texture, substance, taste, smell, composition, etc., of a Russellburger.[dinner][xx(]