Crappiest Passenger Train in No. America (pre-Amtrak)

[Anonymous]

Well on both the TRAINS and Classic Trains boards there's several threads on "Best Passenger Trains." Myself I'm a little exhausted blabbing on about the Century, Broadway, Super Chief, et.al. So what's your vote for the lousiest passenger train and why. Now I'm going to post my favorites of the poorest and up-front I want to say that I don't dislike the trains or carriers they operated over per se. I just think they were at bottom.
(The decisions of this author are based on personal experiences in the mid-sixties when the terrain was all downhill and takes no responsibility for hurt feelings, volatal posts, delays. or failures to make connections. This thread is posted for entertainment purposes only. Mail, baggage and express trains are excluded.)

The SP Sunset. (Three times a week with just an automat. Mr. Biagini was making his feelings quite plain.)
The Georgian Hummingbird. (We'd all go out to watch it come in late.The L&N / C & E I were having their own "Rainbow Era" of equipment.)
The Golden State. (Extra fare-extra plain. Different equipment every trip, and the Rock's favorite interior color-men's room green.)
The Manhattan Limited (Remember I'm a Pennsy fan, but this one could win an award. You could always step back to the P70 coach that had an ironing board across the rear seat back and enjoy a stale cheese sandwich and a warm Fresca. Not an environment to perform surgery in.)
The Genreal / Trailblazer (A commuter consist with a broiler-lounge, a diner, and PULLMANS. During the Airline Strike of '66 it looked like a complete roster of passenger equipment.)
The Chicagoan on the NYC. ( Could count on it being towed in by a switch engine. Once, while train watching at Porter Tower, it came by 4 hours late with the 7 passengers on board looking forelorn in the windows. The tower operator threw open the tower window, shook his fist and yelled, "That'll teach them to ride the NYC.")

That's my short list. I didn't include trains such as the Monon's "Thoroughbread" just because it was short, or downsized. The train was clean and usualy on-time, and the management cared.
Mitch

[Anonymous]

The clockers of the old PRR from NYV to Philadelphia

[Anonymous]

Mitch--

Why be so SPecific???? Everything Mr. Biaggini ran in that era was in a tie for worst.[(-D][(-D]. Take it from one who has "dined" on a Russellburger.[xx(]

And, yes, the Manhattan and Pennsylvania Ltds are right up (down???) there. Rode both in '66. WB Pennsylvania Ltd during the strike. What a zoo.

[passengerfan]

CGW Mill City all heavyweight all dirty and surly crews not much more needs to be said.
Last years of CRI&P TWIN STAR ROCKET dirty surly crews and nevr on time between St. Paul and Kansas City.
Have to agree about the final years of SP train period..
Milwaukee Road OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA in last year was clean but equipment was very dated compared to other streamlined equipment of the day, limited menu in diner and very overpriced compared to NORTH COAST LIMITED and EMPIRE BUILDER.. Last couple of times I rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA got the impression they couldn't wait to be rid of the train wasn't long after my last trip they got their wish in 1960.
GN Seattle - Portland pool train left much to be desired no diner or even Parlor car the rival NP and UP pool trains were far better value for the money between Seattle and Portland..
UP PORTLAND ROSE left much to be desired in final years not recommended for Pullman passengers at all. Rode the train by accident didn't know what the PORTLAND ROSE was.
Never had a bad trip on CN, CP, NP, AT&SF, or CB&Q.
Rode many eastern trains as well unfortunately never sampled B&O or C&O but found NYC lacking and so was the PRR. Enjoyed ACL and SAL and SOu. did not like NYNH&H, or E-L or B&M which was all RDC by the time I rode it..

[espeefoamer]

Saw the RI's Peoria Rocket in Joliet in July 1978.It consisted of one E8 and two coaches.It looked like the coaches hadn't been washed in the last 5 years.Dined(if that word can be used for Automat food) on a Russelburger[xx(] on a fantrip to Bakersfield in 1971,about 2 weeks before Amtrak[:(!].Saw the Sunset in it's darkest era, in 1969. One baggage ,two coaches, the Automat[:(!], and three more coaches.The following year the ICC ordered the SP to reinstate dining and Pullman service. in exchange the SP was allowed to reduce the train to tri-weekly.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Mitch--

Why be so SPecific???? Everything Mr. Biaggini ran in that era was in a tie for worst.[(-D][(-D]. Take it from one who has "dined" on a Russellburger.[xx(]

And, yes, the Manhattan and Pennsylvania Ltds are right up (down???) there. Rode both in '66. WB Pennsylvania Ltd during the strike. What a zoo.

For some reason the trevails of the Sunset stand out in my mind as the shining example of latter day SP hospitality, so I picked it. We rode the Golden State from El Paso to Chicago but we had the private car Chief Illini so it was hard to tell what the others had for service on the train. The diner was "El Cafe" of Golden Rocket fame. The service and food were OK. The lounge car was missing that trip.
We used to revel at the sight of the great trains of the mid-sixties, and laugh at the poor ones. Little did we know what the future had in store for us. One guy in our group said that soon the government would take over and provide a pool of equipment. I said that if that were to happen they'd run the Obs car in the middle and the baggage car on the end.
One day in 1976 my brother and I took Amtrak number 48 to Manhattan. Sure thing, the obs was in the middle and the baggage car was on the hind end.
Mitch

[Anonymous]

Mitch--

Just pulling your leg re: Sunset. One of the documented reasons for the formation of Railpax/Amtrak.

Common area of interest: Rode SP SJD LA-Merced and back summer 1967 right after the RR strike. Not only Russellburgers[tdn][tdn] but, like ATK 48 years later, had round end coach obs running backwards at head end with a great view of the rear end of the filthy HW RPO bouncing up and down and sideways. Had to fight to get on the train, of course, as SP agent tried every reason in the world, including the ubiquitous "sold out" (which was kind of a hard sell since it was an unreserved train) to get us to go some other way. Train was about 90% full. Nobody rides trains.

FWD/CS (CB&Q) post-DZ-trainset Texas Zephyr DAL-DEN was a rolling disaster area. Only train I've ever seen that could lose up to 4-7 hours on the 32-mile FTW-DAL B-RI leg with no conflicting traffic and 79 mph CTC track. Equipment was filthy, and SS stuff was far worse off than the old silver-painted HW chair cars they stuck on there most of the time. If I recall, there was a "nominal" seat charge to experience this lap of luxury for non-local pax. The one (count it) 6-6-4 sleeper that usually showed up was right out of the pool, and who knows how long it had been sitting around. Sometimes the A/C even worked. Every kind of boxcar imaginable--a great place to see modified troop sleepers in various configurations. Lou Menk's finest hour.

And, in the interest of fairness (let's not leave anybody out)--the Jenks Eagles, with greasy fried chicken in the diner-lounge for about $8, in 1967!! You could get a better version in any restaurant for around $1.25. And, of course, the ever popular "seat reservation charge". Plus, in the interest of serving the public convenience and necessity, they wouldn't sell you a through connecting ticket or even get you a reservation on an advertised connection. Want to go to PIT from DAL like I did in 1966?-- MP told us to carry a wad of cash to STL and take your chances getting Pullman space. The alternative was to do like we did--go over to ATSF and they'd route you thru CHI, take care of everything, give you a ticket book with all space and xfer tix in it, AND have a pax svc agent at the station at train time.

Those were the days, my friend, those were the days.

[Anonymous]

Hate to add a second post so quickly, but re: 1978 Peoria Rocket and its friends.

For all you youngsters out there who may not remember any of the era we're discussing:

Since this thread clearly deals with the results of deliberate anti-passenger sentiments and actions on the part of some RRs, it should be pointed out in the interest of fairness that the RI after the mid-60's and particularly into the 70's until its demise, could hardly afford to operate its freight service, much less the pax trains. (The reasons it was in that condition could easily be the topic of another forum). Lack of money, pure and simple, is why it didn't pull the rip cord and join Amtrak in the first place (didn't have enough cash on hand to begin to afford the $4.5 million price tag to bail out). The poor quality of the RI pax trains at this time mirrored the poor quality of all its other operations, was quite honestly due to a lack of cash and not to a lack or pride or effort on the most part, and was ultimately reflected in its bankruptcy.

[lonewoof]

Wish I remembered EXACTLY what the train names were: both around 1962-63; first was on the Pennsy, NY to Washington. Consist was OLD heavyweight coaches, mine had the heat STUCK WIDE OPEN. (Not sure what time of year, but I think it was ~50 outside, about 95 inside...
Second, (may have been the same trip) RF&P/ACL, Washington to Yemassee, SC. I think this was the Havana Special. I think it stopped at EVERY station along the route; probably stopped TWICE at several, also made many stops where there WAS no station...

[Anonymous]

I'm too young to answer this question, but I wish I had your bad memories as well as those that are good!

[espeefoamer]

I rode from Benjamin Hill( in Sonora, Mexico) to Mexicali on an all coach (no lounge or diner) train.This train stopped everywhere, and took all night. This train ran all the way from Guadalajara,to Mexicali( over 1300 miles).Long distance passengers had to buy food that was sold by trackside vendors at the stations.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I rode from Benjamin Hill( in Sonora, Mexico) to Mexicali on an all coach (no lounge or diner) train.This train stopped everywhere, and took all night. This train ran all the way from Guadalajara,to Mexicali( over 1300 miles).Long distance passengers had to buy food that was sold by trackside vendors at the stations.

?Perdoname para mi pregunta, pero cual es su problema exactamente con este servicio?

?Toda via vive, verdad?

Definiciones de las clases del servicio en los trenes:

Segunda clase--no hay banos

Primera clase--hay banos, pero no tienen papel del bano

Primera especial clase--hay banos, pero no tienen papel de bano, pero hay un asistente del carro para administrar papel de bano a vd.

!Bienvenidos a los f.f.c.c. S-BC y FCP de Mexico![(-D][:-,][(-D][:-,]

[M636C]

I have to admit that I didn't visit the USA until 1973, so I know nothing about pre Amtrak conditions. However, on the Roosevelt Road bridge in Chicago, in 1977, I remember seeing an ICG commuter train run past into La Salle St (?).

This was an F3, still painted in faded GM&O paint from the merger, hauling three heavyweight steel coaches, still in GM&O red and maroon. Now this was something great for a railfan to see, but not inspiring for a passenger.

There was a Conrail train that had a few cars lettered for Pennsylvania, but the ICG took the prize for pre merger, pre Amtrak image.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter--

You've got the general idea. With a few exceptions, it was pretty grim.

Hope you guys are having a nice springtime.

[M636C]

drephe,

It has rained a lot lately, and this is needed, but I went out on the 7th (it was fine) and got some nice shots of a special train with two Alcos climbing the local mountains.

Peter

[Anonymous]

What about the Amtrak, "Heritage Coaches?" How do these factor into the mix?

[espeefoamer]

Heritage coaches were the cars Amtrak recieved from the railroads.These were remodeled to amtrak specifications. They were better(gegerally more comfortable) than Amfleet or Horizon cars.I prefer Amfleet, especially Amfleet 2 (Long distance coaches) to the Horizon Fleet cars.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I rode from Benjamin Hill( in Sonora, Mexico) to Mexicali on an all coach (no lounge or diner) train.This train stopped everywhere, and took all night. This train ran all the way from Guadalajara,to Mexicali( over 1300 miles).Long distance passengers had to buy food that was sold by trackside vendors at the stations.

?Perdoname para mi pregunta, pero cual es su problema exactamente con este servicio?

?Toda via vive, verdad?

Definiciones de las clases del servicio en los trenes:

Segunda clase--no hay banos

Primera clase--hay banos, pero no tienen papel del bano

Primera especial clase--hay banos, pero no tienen papel de bano, pero hay un asistente del carro para administrar papel de bano a vd.

!Bienvenidos a los f.f.c.c. S-BC y FCP de Mexico![(-D][:-,][(-D][:-,]

Uno Primera Clase, mas Segunda Clase.Banos muy mal[:(!].
Train included some heavyweight Segunda Clase cars.I rode in one of these.
I overextended my knowledge of Spani***o answer this post. I didn't understand 95% of what you said!

[Anonymous]

Espeefoamer (and all the rest of you out there in television-lant---oops, forum-land):

Translation:

"Just what exactly was your problem with this service?
"You're alive, aren't you?

"Definitions of classes of service on the trains:

"Second class--no bathrooms
"First class--bathrooms but no toilet paper
"Primera Especial (special firat) class--bathrooms but no toilet paper, but there is an attendant to hand you toilet paper

"Welcome aboard the Sonora-Baja California and Ferrocarril Pacifico Railroads of Mexico!![(-D][:-,][(-D][:-,]"

I know--I'm probably behind this[8], but it adds to the ambiance, ?verdad?

Just pulling your leg.

[espeefoamer]

Second class cars in Mexico had bathrooms, but they were in horrible condition[xx(].

[vsmith]

That explains seeing people congregating on the open platforms in those old photos?

Reminds me of the old submariners lymric describing preWW2 pigboats....

Submarines have no latrines
so the old salts often told
they'd hang their tails between the rails
and cry "Oh that waters cold!"

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Outside appearances can be deceiving. The Conrail-operated Chicago-Valparaiso suburban locals looked pretty hideous from the outside (2 GP7's and either 4 or 8 P70 coaches) but the interiors were clean and fairly well maintained.

[Wdlgln005]

Peter:
The old GM&O F3 with 3 coaches would be an old GM&O train, now referred to by Metra as Heritage line. The IC electrics went from the far south suburbs (Homewood), (University Park) via the lakeshore into downtown Chicago. THese were and are electrics. The two lines never merged. I don't think any true IC equipment went into service on Chicago-St Louis trains, that operated out of Union Station. funny, but I can remember getting on a run to Springfield IL in a dome car. Most of the train was GM&O red.

{Probably the worst trains were those in the South still suffering from bad old equipment from the Jim Crow laws.
i cringe every time I see a Bachmann christmas set with the combine set up in the wrong way. Please don't put the baggage section in between the coaches.

[METRO]

The PennCentral locals were a joke. An E8 and a coach, might as well have rode the bus.

~METRO

[jabrown1971]

I too am too young to remember the pre-amtrak era, I am older than Amtrak by 55 days. I have heard and read lots of stories about that era and can see how Grehound and, in those days, Trailways packed them on. Makes me wonder though, how could Greyhound put more people on today than Amtrak. Amtrak crews are generally friendlier and customer service better

[Anonymous]

anyone out there ride the el lake cities?i heard it was awful.

[tpatrick]

I have ridden on all the Erie trains, including the Lake Cities. All were clean and comfortable, but none of them were in any way elegant or luxurious. They certainly don't deserve to be called "awful." Erie's New York to Chicago route provided basic no frills passenger service to smaller cities and towns. They weren't the Century or the Broadway, but the LC and her sisters were welcomed and appreciated in all the communities they served. My hometown, Jamestown, NY, had six Erie trains daily. If they were still running, Jamestowners would still ride them, just as they did a generation ago.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

Heritage coaches were the cars Amtrak recieved from the railroads.These were remodeled to amtrak specifications. They were better(gegerally more comfortable) than Amfleet or Horizon cars.I prefer Amfleet, especially Amfleet 2 (Long distance coaches) to the Horizon Fleet cars.

I posted this before on another thread. I've ridden the Heritage coaches and Amfleet II. Not saying this out of sentimentality but as far as space and riding comfort, IMHO, the Heritage coaches beat Amleet II by a long shot. Riding over CSX rails on the east coast between Washington D.C and Florida, Amfleet IIs bounce like New York City subway cars. The heavier Heritage coaches were great at rocking you gently to sleep. I sure do miss them!

[71318f]

Smitten with the 'Romance of the Rails", as a young soldier I took a Kansas City Southern train from Alexandria, LA to KC MO in 1966. The car heaters were blasting hot (in summer!), the toilets were overflowing, we spent lots of time going backward. The love affair was over by the time I staggered into the KC station.

[Anonymous]

Hope you don't mind the addition of a commuter train- the infamous "Rocket" of the NY, NH, & H RR. It wasn't a train- it was a very tired Budd car that went from Old Saybrook in Connecticut to New Haven, with local stops. In the evening it would slowly make it's way back to Old Saybrook. Only a died in the wool railfan like my father would ride it, and the NH killed it off shortly before the PC merger. It's nickname was the "rattler"- a pretty apt description of the ride. No amenities on board except a seat.

I understand Metro North now runs three trains daily along the Shore Line route from New Haven to Old Saybrook and back- electric trains- pretty amazing.

Erik