On the Harlem they would have riddent the regular Chatham - GCT or North Adams - GCT passenger trains. One North Adams - GCT (NA-Pittsfield-Chatham-GCT) train even had a parlor and diner! Way beofre your time.
But on th eRutland, they could ride the rider-coach or combine.
Even pics of the Rut milk on the Harlem shows 'boose rather than rider before they had the Troy detour..
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That would be the Troy branch of the B&M over which the Rutland had trackage rights. The Vermont RR still connects with Pan Am-Gilford, however.
If the Rutland used a rider coach or combine on the millk train, they would accept passengers. If a caboose, probably not. I can be reasonablly certain that at least at one time they did. But probablliy not after they stopped running down the Corkscrew and ran via Troy.
In the Trains May issue, page 5, under Corrections they now say that the Troy branch was abandoned in 1971.
Still,nobody has proven that the milk trains carried passengers,at least not on the Rutland.I have Shaughnessy's book,Nimke's vol 4.which covers the main line of the Rutland from Rutland to North Bennington AND the Corkscrew divsion.Shaughnessy mentioned that passenger trains briefly returned to the Corkscrew division in the form of the Chatham Exchange Club Fan Trips in the autumn from 1948-51.In an earlier CT article,Shaughnessy notes that by 1952,the Rutland could not pull together enough passenger cars,plus by that time,most of the Rutland steam locomotives had been retired.
I also have Grogan's book about the NYC Harlem division given to me by my brother,who lives in Amenia,NY,which is on the Harlem division,about 20 or 30 miles south of Chatham.His neighbor,who is a former railroad man from that area,might know if the Harlem division milk trains ever carried passengers on the NYC leg of the trip.
While digging for something else I found the "Open and Prepay Staion List" from Jan 1, 1967 which not only still shows the B&M troy Branch, but shows Troy as a non-prepay (agency) station. Of course B&M was known for abandoning stuff without bothering to let the public (or the ICC) know about it...
That makes sense with what I can piece together from other sources. The PC photo was probably taken near the yard. I do know the B&M branch was still in the Employee TT in 1964.
The marketing order that killed the milk trains on the Rutland in Vermont didn't kill milk trains altogether. Rutland carried can and bulk milk in New York west of Rouses point for a couple of years, and Central Vermont carried milk into the late 1950s headed for Boston.
As I posted earlier, I remember the Rutland frt going thru Rensselaer (from Troy to the B&A main) in the mid-50's. I also remember, my father (an NYC man) calling it the "Rutland Milk Train" to Chatham.
I believe the B&M tracks into Troy were gone by '62-'63 maybe '65 at the latest. Also the Green Island bridge lost it tracks from Troy to Waterviliet (across the Hudson River) around '65, and the bridge was made all auto traffic (the bridge fell into the Hudson in 1977).
As for the PC "parting the weeds" near the old station, I don't think that happened (I'm an old PCRR Conductor/brakeman), the farthest I ever went into Troy, was the old NYC frt yard in mid Troy (just north of where the old main came from the old station)...we spotted a few industrial tracks/grain. The D&H also had trackage rights (and still does with CSX) to spot grain cars there.
CR abolished the Troy Switcher in '77 or '78, and those old guys "bumped" down to the Depot Switcher (Rensselaer Station), I know this account I was one of the guys bumped! And it took a few years before I could hold the Depot Switcher again.
Rutland to D&H milk was NY State milk from west of Plattsburg towards Ogdensburg.
Vermont milk was barred from New York by a federal marketing order in 1953 or so. The Rutland handed some upstate New York milk off to the D&H at Rouses point for a couple of years after that, but the milk trains were gone form Vermont. So how long did the B&M's Troy branch last after the Rutland ended service in 1963?
I remember as a boy growing up in Rensselaer, NY watching the Rutland freight come thru the "wye" and "diamond" of the NYC at, I believe "Tower 99", from Troy and up and over the NYC's B & A main to Chatham in the late afternoon. My family lived on Broadway in Rensselaer at the time and my father was a NYC car knocker working at the Rennselaer Shops. When the weather was nice, he would take me and my brother to the walking bridge over the tracks and watch NYC trains come/go to NYG and Boston. The Rutland train was a treat account it was in"color"! Not the grey and white stripes of the NYC. The Rutland RS-3 and caboose were cream and green.
After the "Corkscrew" was abandoned the train did, indeed, operate via Troy,
the Post Road branch and the B&A to Chatham. There is a nice little story
about operations at Chatham in volume 2 of "Boston & Albany - the New York
Central in New England" that mentions the arrival of RC4 behind two RS3s.
However, in all the pictures I've ever seen of the train on this "detour" I never
saw any milk cars. The train may have had to operate to Chatham due to
I.C.C. tariffs?
But if the train...the milk...was going to the West Side, going back to Chatham was cumbersome at best, out of the way for sure, and lost a lot of time in the process...direct Troy down the Hudson made the most sense. ***, why did I get rid of all those NYC employee timetables I had!!!!!
The milk train was an exception and ran to Chatham via trackage rights on the B&M to Troy and the B&A-NYC from Troy to Chatham. This was discussed in a past CT article. I suspect by that time there were zero passengers. But when the "Corkscrew" line was still running, with the milk train bypassing Tory and running on Rutland tracks directly to Chatham, there almost certainly were passengers . Possibly at Chatham they changed to one of the regular Chatham - GCT passenger trains run by the Central. It would have been logical if they want to go say from Rutland to White Plains, or Brwester, or Valhalla, or Chappauqua, etc.
The Rutland apparently still had one or two customers in Chatham even after abandoning direct service. Similar to what CP (D&H) does now in Albany via trackage rights on CSX!
If they went to Troy, the didn't go to Chatham but on down the Hudson Line to NYC's West Side. Not sure when Johnsonville to Troy was abandoned but you can still find the tower there and if you look carefully you can follow the abandoned ROW into Troy. When the snow melts and before the leaves or in Sept after the leaves fall and before the snow, are two great times to go hunting for abandoned rights of ways...or even those which are extant.
So.. The successors to the milk trains, RC-3 and CR-4, definitely ran over B&M/NYC/B&A trackage rights from North Bennington to Chatham via Troy and Renssalaer after the Chatham branch ("corkscrew") was abandoned in 1953. The Rutland was abandoned in 1963 and B&M still listed the Troy Branch in the Jan. 1 1964 employee timetable. When was the B&M branch abandoned south of Johnsonville?
Pics in the Harlem book show only cabooses and no rider cars on mile trains. I suspected they went west on the wye at Mott Haven and down the West Side.
The milk trains on the Harlem ran around the wye at Mott Haven, then the second wye at Spuyten Dyvil, and down the West Side line . There was a Bordens Milk processing plant that had a siding off the West Side Line, and I remember visiting it with a my grade school class. However, there were cases of passengers being carried on head-end trains including some not in the public timetable . The Harlem Div. train probably had a rider coach or combine . Also, remember that during part of the 1930's, there was still two morning Spuyten Dyvil - 60th St local trains with two return in the evening. I believe they used the same coaches as the Putnam Div trains and operated out of High Bridge yard. They may have been mu cars or mu trailers but did have lighting and heating from the output of the oil-electric locos that powered them. A time table chekc would show if they ran south of 60th to the Post Office yard at 32nd St.
If there were passengers on the Rut/Harlem train, being First Class, it would appear in the public timetable which it wasn't from what I can see. And since milk trains didn't go to GCT, there was less likelyhood of them carrying passengers.
Possibly the few passengers on the train on the Rutland were carried in the caboose, and the NYC Harlem line connection may have had a combine or passenger coach.
But the main passenger route was definitely over the B&M to a Troy connection with the Central.
You sent me to Grogan's The Coming of the New York and Harlem Railroad. All references in pictures in the book show milk cars and caboose and no rider car or passenger coach for the Rutland mil,...on the Harlem line anyway. Usually milk trains were considered First Class trains for timetable authority and on most roads it meant carrying passengers, too. These trains were carded as First Class and not at Mixed Trains nor 3rd Class. So, next I will have to check through some timetables and OG's; unfortunately there are non reproduced in the book. It brings up a question about whether or not Harlem milk trains carried passengers or not.
I know that Troy is not on the Bennington-Chatham route;I lived in Bennington,VT from age 10 in 1962 until I went off to seminary in 1972.Are you saying that the milk trains,which originated in Ogdensburg,NY,then traveled through to the Rutland main line through Vermont,and then the Chatham branch to Chatham,NY,were a type of mixed train?
I think if that were the case,Mr.Shaughnessy would have had something to say about that in his book.My reference to Troy was regarding passenger service on the Rutland which ended in 1953.Up to then,Rutland operated passenger trains to Troy,NY.At North Bennington,the rains operated over B&M trackage until Troy.In later years,before passenger service ended,the trains would go no further north than Burlington,VT
Chatham Branch did not go through Troy....but milk trains did carry passengers to GCT...but I don't know how late this was still occurring.
Are you sure the through milk trains to Chatham carried passengers?From Shaughnessy's book,I get the impression that NO passengers were carried on the Chatham branch since the late 20's or early 30's(I'm in the library now and don't have the book handy).I believe a mixed train ran between Chatham and Bennington and then was replaced by a bus operated by the Rutland,but even this ended circa 1931.
Also,I understand that North Bennington was the stop on the Troy-Montreal route,not Bennington to the south.If Mr.Shaughessy himself posts here,he can verify this,he actually witnessed these operations,wheras I arrived in the world and in Vermont a bit too late!
Henry, all major Rutland passenger trains ran over the B&M to Troy and not to Chatham. Only the daily middle of the night milk train ran to Chatham and it did carry passengers. At Chatham the baggage0car milk cars went both to New York via the Harlem Div and to Boston via the B&A. But the main line passenger trains went to Troy and then to New York on the NYC. At the time some D&H passenger trains also ran via Troy and not via Albany. This included the Laurentia, which was combined with the Green Mountain on the NYC to and from NYCity.
Possibly the station building was abandoned in 1959 and replaced by a "shelter?"
After the 1953 abandonment of Rutland's own line from Bennington to Chatham the Rutland operated a more-or-less daily through freight over B&M and NYC/B&A trackage rights from Rutland to Chatham via North Bennington, Hoosick Jct., Troy, and Renssalaer. Jim Shoughnessy's book has photos of Rutland RS3's operating there. Prior to 1953 Rutland passenger engines often operated to Troy, as B&M's did to Rutland.
The Rutland to went to Chatham on it's own line from Bennington and interchanged its with the NYC's Harlem DIvision there. I don't believe it ran its own trains to Troy but may have had the B&M carry its cars. Troy Union Station was B&M, NYC and D&H.
The map in the Feb 2013 Trains magazine shows the B&M's Troy Branch, and Troy Union Station, as abandoned in 1959. I'm pretty sure Rutland trains (enroute to Chatham NY) went through here on trackage rights until at least 1963, and my B&M emloyee timetable from Jan 1964 shows the Troy branch. And even though I can't find the magazine, I'm pretty sure I remember a photo of a Penn Central train parting the weeds at the site of the former Union Station. Anyone have a real date for abandonment?
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